Talk:Lovecraftian horror

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[edit] Mythos vs. genre

I think this article is good, and a split between HPL's own work and the many derivatives thereof is a sensible idea, but perhaps some of the pop-culture contents should be moved further to References_to_the_Cthulhu_mythos (which already duplicates much of this anyway) so the contents better match the title. For instance, I don't think Something Positive is really 'Lovecraftian horror'. Maybe leave this page for Lovecraftian horror as a genre, including the Lovecraft-inspired works that are themselves Lovecraftian horror, and move/delete the rest? --Calair 23:46, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I could see moving anything from here to References_to_the_Cthulhu_mythos which used specific Lovecraftian mythos elements, and moving anything from there to here which doesn't. For example, In the Mouth of Madness makes no references to the mythos, but is certainly Lovecraftian horror. Same goes for Hellboy. Are you up for doing the merge in both directions? -Harmil 00:37, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

One other thought: I tried to make this page prose where I could (it's not List of Lovecraft-influenced fiction), and I'd rather see the sections that are lists - which I moved from H. P. Lovecraft - turned into histories of the influence of the genre. If no one else does that work, I probably will in the next few weeks. -Harmil 00:41, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

OK, I moved some stuff over. In the end there was less to move than I'd expected, but I tried to make the remainder more relevant to this page, showing how the RPGs mentioned incorporate Lovecraftian themes and removing the ones that just drop Mythos names and have an occasional tentacle in the artwork. I largely left the film section alone because I don't know enough to do much with it, but I don't think movies should be moved from here solely because they contain specific mythos elements.

If they have Lovecraftian themes they belong here (Mouth of Madness), if they drop mythos names they belong on the References page (Army of Darkness), if they do both (e.g. Dagon) then they're relevant to both. But since this page is more of a discussion, and the References one is more of a list, duplication shouldn't be too much of an issue; we're using them in a different way here. Does that sound reasonable? --Calair 01:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Very nice work. I like it. As for the movies, I'm sure there's more to be done. When I have time to think about it, I'll come back and see what I can do. -Harmil 04:27, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

You guys have GOT to check out DOTA, the Warcraft 3 custom map. ALOT of it's names and items etc. are derived from Lovecraft. I mean, come on, an item called the Necronomicon? As if that's not a direct tribute to Lovecraft.

It's a super popular game as well, it's just been accepted as a proper game in CAL, so, it can only go up from here. =)

[edit] Lovecraftian vs. Lovecraftean

I'm almost certain that scholars like S.T. Joshi, etc. tend to use Lovecraftean rather than Lovecraftian (don't have my books on hand to check at work). To my eyes, it also looks more aesthetically proper. Should there be a page rename? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 04:05, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I would be opposed to such a move. The common usage is so weighted toward "Lovecraftian" that there is no comparison at all. For example, hplovecraft.com, chaosium, and the H. P. Lovecraft entry all use "Lovecraftian". Searches on google show 65,000 hits for Lovecraftian and 500 hits for Lovecraftean (which suggests, "Did you mean: Lovecraftian").

There may be some scholars who chose another term (almost certainly to dissociate themselves from popular horror and avoid the stigma that results from such an association in academic circles), and that term might deserve a redirect and a footnote if you can find some references, but it's certainly not the primary usage. -Harmil 21:29, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if it's just an attempt at disassociation; -ean has certainly been used in similar fashion elsewhere (Charles Fort gives us 'Fortean', for instance). "Lovecraftean" also looks more aesthetically proper to me (partly because 'Lovecrafte' works fine as an archaic version of the same name, and from there -ean is the natural construction).

But overall, established usage strongly favours -ian, and that's the decider. The -ean spelling should be acknowledged, but not by moving the page. --Calair 23:44, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Time for citations

Ever since I created this page, it's been in the back of my mind that I need to come back and cite the hell out of it, and now appears to be a good time. If anyone knows of any particularly obscure, and yet reliable sources for the information that we have here, please feel free to contribute them. -Harmil 22:00, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Video games

As is typical for any article containing a list, the video games section attracts a plethora of "oh, I know one too!" types of edits. For the rest of this article, that problem has been mitigated by turning lists into prose. I'm not an avid player of video games (though I've played some on the list), so I'm not sure that I'm the best person to do it, but it would be great if someone could update the video games section in this way. Remember that it's always reasonable to simply remove examples. The goal of this page is not to be an authoritative list of references to the mythos or even of true Lovecraftian horror. The goal is to explain the topic of lovecraftian horror and its impacts on popular culture to the reader. If an example is weak, feel free to toss it. IMHO, there are really only 2 or 3 video games that are truly iconic works of Lovecraftian horror, anyway. -Harmil 18:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, since no one else was interested, I took a stab at it. Thoughts? -Harmil 14:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

It works well at streamlining the article and refocusing it towards its original purpose, but I can't help but feel that the information would've been useful to _someone_, and the list version should probably have been spun off into its own article. Also, although this version highlights some of the heavyweights, like Alone in the Dark or The Lurking Horror, Eternal Darkness--one of the most famous Lovecraftian horror games, and one that intentionally largely develops its own Lovecraft-oid mythos instead of borrowing the Cthulhu mythos--is conspiciously absent. Planning to correct the latter part myself.Devilot 05:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

If you want to start a List of Lovecraftian video games, and then modify the Video games section of this article to start with {{main|List of Lovecraftian video games}}, I would have no problem with it, but that's not the purpose of this article. -15:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I never said it was. In fact, quite the contrary. I merely added Eternal Darkness as it was high-profile and helped flesh out the threadbare paragraph on Lovecraft-influenced console games. Although it wasn't influential in the evolution of Lovecraftian horror games, neither was Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth. Unless you say that Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth was influential for being the first high-profile, "mainstream" directly-Lovecraft-based console game. In which case, Eternal Darkness qualifies for similar reasons, and also got a better critical response. And, unlike Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth, was a console exclusive. In fact, as this article is about Lovecraftian horror, not the Cthulhu Mythos, if we had to have only one console game listed, Eternal Darkness would be the better choice. It may not be directly based on the Cthulhu Mythos, but it came earlier, was console-exclusive, higher-profile, and garnered a better critical response, all while being just as based in Lovecraftian horror, if not the Cthulhu Mythos, as Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth.Devilot 17:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you're starting to wander away from the topic of the article, and into the history of console video games. The section on video games in this article is not a list. It discusses the evolution of Lovecraftian influences on video games, and touches on each of the major types of platform from early PC games to consoles. The fact taht an example is cited for each one is rather beside the point. Did this other game actually change the way Lovecraftian influences were portrayed in console games, or was it just a popular game that happened to have some Lovecraftian elements? -Harmil 17:56, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arkham Horror

The section on games should also mention the Arkham Horror board game. I'm not sufficiently familiar with the game (I've only played it once) to write a passage about it, but I encourage someone more knowledgeable than me to do so. Pat Berry 07:37, 6 January 2007 (UTC)