Talk:Love bombing

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Contents 1 Keith Henson 2 definition 3 COG predates UC? 4 Changes to the History section 5 COG used it first? 6 A reader could infer? 7 Singer was an adjunct 8 Ticket to Heaven 9 Henson, part deux

[edit] Keith Henson

When I first read this article, it included a discussion of the psychological theories of Keith Henson. I assumed he was a well-established and respected psychologist at a research university who had published in peer-reviewed journals. After reading about him on the Keith Henson page, I discovered that he has no social science research qualifications whatsoever (he has a bachelor's degree in Electrical Engineering), and that he is an anti-Scientology activist. He also happens to be a convicted criminal whose whereabouts are unknown because of his leaving Canada subsequent to his emigration there in an attempt to evade the U.S. justice system (and avoid being jailed) after his conviction. To include his psychological theory in a Wikipedia article and leave the impression that he is a qualified and respected researcher (which would seem to be minimum criteria for inclusion in any encyclopedia article) exemplifies exactly what members of the Anti-Cult Movement criticize "cults" for being: deceptive. The inclusion of his theory here was perhaps the most ridiculous entry I have seen on Wikipedia, with the possible exception of one Unification Church member's claim that Moon had "rehabilitated his image" by the 1990s. -Exucmember 22:58, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with Henson's credentials. Anyone can click on the Keith Henson link and find out who he is and judge his credentials. I don't know why you "assumed he was a well-established and respected psychologist at a research university who had published in peer-reviewed journals" since the article does not use the honorific "Dr." or "Ph. D." and does not say he is a psychologist.

There's no rule that only material by people with credentials is included in Wikipedia, and there is certainly no rule that only "true" material is included. The rule is that the material has to be traceable to a published, reliable source, and that it be presented neutrally.

If it is in fact widely thought to be credible, by either faction, the right thing to do would be to include it, together with any material needed to clarify the situation for the reader.

A few years before Margaret Singer died she discussed love bombing and capture-bonding in long phone conversations with Keith Henson, an electrical engineer and anti-Scientology activist...

However, I'm not going to do anything about it because the Keith Henson material rests on his personal testimony, has not been published, and therefore does not meet the verifiability policy. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:32, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

If the changes I made do not meet the verifiablity policy, please let me know. (Keith Henson)

If I ran across a Wikipedia article that cited a certain person as having developed a brain surgery technique, I would assume not only that the person was qualified to perform brain surgery, but that he might well be an above-average brain surgeon to have come up with a technique that is presumably respected in the field. If I subsequently found out that he was not a medical doctor at all (or even a pre-med student as an undergraduate), I would wonder what kind of encyclopedia would cite techniques that have not been reviewed by qualified people in the field.

Funny you should mention surgery. Try "Keith Henson" wet work in Google and take the first link. And while I would not call it brain surgery, I have put in a number of burr holes to see how much brain swelling occured.

Even if it were made very clear that the so-called "attention-reward theory" was the sloppy creation of someone not even in the field - in fact by an partisan activist (who some might regard as a crackpot) - it undermines rather than supports the argument because of its low quality. It is not a positive reflection on the discernment of anti-cultists if they they widely think this "theory" to be "credible." -Exucmember 02:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

There are (as of this date) 13,600 links reported by Google for sex drugs cults "Keith Henson." Those links include Google Directory - Science > Social Sciences > Psychology

An evolutionary perspective on sex, drugs, cults, religions, and ideologies by H. Keith Henson, including a hair-raising account of the author's encounters

www.google.com/Top/Science/Social_Sciences/Psychology/Evolutionary_Psychology/

To the best of my knowledge there are no researchers in the evolutionary psychology field who have an objection to the article. If you can find one, please let me know.

Keith Henson 01:28, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] definition

what is the exact definition of this? i find the page to be extremely difficult to understand.

is it where someone pretends to be interested in someone else and love them, only to dump them much later on (months, even years later)? i've been through that several times, where people get off to seeing how much they can hurt someoen else after pretending to be their friend....

RaccoonFox • Talk • Stalk 01:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The introduction to the article talks about 3 uses of the term. The third "use" is really only an adaptation of the second. So the first two "uses" are: [1] the original definition used by the groups (COG and UC) - a genuine expression of friendship, and [2] a revised definition used by critics - implying that the "love" is feigned and the practice is manipulative.

It is quite common for a term to be redefined and then to have two meanings. It's even common for a term like this one to have one meaning when used in its original sense and a second meaning when used by critics. -DoctorW 20:30, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] COG predates UC?

Regarding "The phrase and practice were apparently first created within the Children of God.": The Unification Church started in the 1940s. COG didn't start until 1969[1]. I move that the sentence be deleted and that the sentence that follows be adjusted accordingly. Tanaats 05:47, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

That sentence is supported by a primary source. There is a problem with your reasoning. Moon had an informal following in the 40s and a formal organization in 1954, but in Korea (where they speak Korean). Even if they spoke English, it does not follow that a term had to be invented in or about the year the group was founded. Checking the Unification Church page, I see that the first missionary was not even sent to an English speaking country until 1959. If the Unification Church came up with the phrase "love bombing", how do we know when they coined the phrase? People coin phrases all the time. The only evidence that can be provided is a primary source where the term was used, either in the Unification Church, the Children of God, another group, or in the media. As a matter of fact, I think I read somewhere the assertion that it was first used by the media, and that the Unification Church (perhaps also the Children of God?) adopted it. Whether this is true or not can only really be argued convincingly on the basis of primary sources. Rather than deleting primary sources in the article, editors should look for additional ones that bear on the issue. -DoctorW 20:46, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

If I deleted a reference then it was a miserable mistake and I do apologize. I'll be more careful in future. Thanks for catching that.

The sentence "The phrase and practice were apparently first created within the Children of God" was supported by the missing references? I don't see that in [2] or [3], are those the references being referred to? Or am I perhaps misunderstanding you?

Sorry, I just read what you wrote farther down the page. Please ignore the above paragraph. Tanaats 00:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

You're quite right about there not being evidence as to whether the COG or UC first used the term. My main objection was to the passage "apparently first used by the COG" followed rather closely by a rather critically-toned assertion that Loomis didn't know this. Well, he might indeed not know something that is only "apparently" a fact. I should have limited myself to that. Tanaats 00:16, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

No, I'm the one who should have been more careful, in two ways (this is unusual for me as I am usually very careful). I see that you didn't delete the references, but simply moved them way down the page. Also, I should have read the relevant sections of the references the first time. The text implied primary source early usage of the term, and I took that at face value and defended them strongly. After reading the references I concluded that they are worthless (see below). -DoctorW 06:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes to the History section

I made the following changes to the History section...

• The UC is older than the COG. I took out references to "love bombing" having "apparently" been used first by the COG. For the same reason I put the UC info above the COG info. For the same reason I took out "(and apparently ignorant of the early use of the term within the Children of God)"

• Took out "With no indication of the source of his claim" as OR.

You can't simply delete primary sources identifying use of the term that don't fit your theory. Let the evidence be offered to the reader. Also, if you had read the statement Loomis made in the context of the sentences before and after, you would (hopefully) not have been able to misunderstand what he was claiming. It had nothing to do with whether or not the term was independently invented by COG. -DoctorW 20:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] COG used it first?

DoctorW, just curious... Why do you think that the COG used the term first? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tanaats (talk • contribs) 21:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC).

I did not have an opinion on that issue (and frankly, I don't really care). My main concern was keeping the evidence. Although I read the relevant section of the Loomis article, I assumed the editor(s) who implied a primary source (either citing it or citing something referring to it) were acting in good faith. But now that I have read the relevant sections of those two articles (referring to early use of the term 'love bombing' in the COG), I can only conclude that the way the references are presented is very misleading to say the least. They actually offer nothing of value. I will delete them. I have seen this before on Wikipedia: implying that a reference says what it does not in fact say.

At this point I have to agree with the first comment on this Talk page, that this is a lousy article (at least with regard to the history of the term). There is not a scrap of evidence as to whether the term was used first by COG, UC, media, or some critic. (I don't see how Loomis could possibly know whether it was first used by someone in the UC or in some obscure newspaper article and picked up by the UC.) -DoctorW 21:50, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough thanks. Tanaats 00:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no connection with the Unification Church or the Children of God. I don't really care who used "love bombing" first. When I wrote that part of the article I was trying to disentangle the history, because the term is widely associated with both of those organizations. I thought memoirs in which Children of God members recalled using it early in the history of that organization were evidence of its being used there first. If you don't feel I characterized the sources correctly, OK. Nevertheless they are germane to the topic and I don't see why they should be removed unless you can find something better or more definitive. I've reinserted the reference and have simply avoided characterizing them as showing the term originated with the Children of God. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:08, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

After defending the references because of your characterization that they demonstrated early use in COG, I read the relevant sections of the two articles. Your statement above that they are "memoirs in which Children of God members recalled using it early in the history of that organization" is simply incorrect. Please read the relevant sections of the articles again. Former COG members who are now critical use the phrase to characterize behavior decades earlier. There is no indication at all that I can see that the term was used at the time. I did not find any evidence in these articles that COG members used the term in early years anywhere in either article. Can you produce a quotation from each article to back up your assertion? I admire your trying to track down the history, but I think you may have misunderstood what these articles show. I don't see how they show anything. -DoctorW 07:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I am almost certain that the term was made up by Mrs. Onni Durst (before she became Mrs. Durst that is) of the Unification Church. I joined the UC in 1974 and we were using the expression then. Steve Dufour 16:01, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, as noted above, I edited the statement in the article to say merely that the phrase was used by and within the Children of God. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Another question that could be asked is if love bombing is such a powerful mind control technique why do only these three small groups use it? Steve Dufour 22:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The UC is small? Regardless, I don't believe that the article says "only". Tanaats 22:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Its article says that it has 250,000 to 1 million world-wide. This is small compared to the 6 billion people in the world, or to many other churches. The number of English speaking Unificationists who might use the expression "love bombing" is much smaller, maybe 10 to 20 thousand. Steve Dufour 03:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, "small" and "large" are judgement calls. Let me just stick with my observation that I don't see where the article states that these are the only groups that are alleged to use love-bombing. Tanaats 04:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that just about every group of people in the history of the human species has tried to show love to people it was trying to integrate into itself. However only some members of the American Unification Church, and later some of its critics, ever called it "love bombing". Steve Dufour 06:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm getting confused by this exchange, Steve. To draw a line under it, do you have a proposal for changing the article? If so could you state clearly what you want to change? If not, then maybe we should just leave this discussion. Tanaats 06:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's fine to have an article on the expression "love bombing" and the article as it is is quite interesting. Steve Dufour 06:30, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Dpbsmith, your statement that "the phrase was used by and within the Children of God" has no foundation. The articles cited show only that former members of the Children of God, in talking about the early days of the organization, chose to characterize the activities of those early days as "love bombing". I am working from memory from a week or two ago here, but I believe they never claimed or even implied that those terms were used at the time. Can you cite a quotation from one of those two articles to prove me wrong? -DoctorW 04:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A reader could infer?

There are a lot of uncited statements in this article. However the statement "In this context, a reader could infer that the critic's intention is to suggest that the organization has some "cult"-like characteristics" is IMO a blatant personal interpretation. I propose that it be removed. Tanaats 22:33, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and did that. Steve Dufour 03:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Singer was an adjunct

Margaret Singer was only an adjunct professor. She was primarily a clinical psychologist, and drew her conclusions from clinical observations; to my knowledge she never did what research psychologists would call a scientific study. This is an important distinction. -DoctorW 04:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

What counts is that she was a professor. --Tilman 07:20, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm darned if I see why it matters, either way. There seems to be quite a bit of subtle POV-pushing going on in recent edits, but fortunately it's so subtle that I don't even see the point. To me, what either statement amounts to is that she had legitimate professional credentials in psychology. Which, in my own opinion, does raise the credibility of her statements on the psychology of "cults" a small amount higher than that of a layperson (but only a small amount, as scientists, professors, clinicians, researchers, etc. are not immune from having bees in their bonnet).

I don't suppose we could compromise on "psychologist Margaret Singer?" And put all the details ("adjunct professor of psychology" or whatever) in a footnote? Dpbsmith (talk) 11:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

No, if she was a professor, it should be mentioned. She was more than just a psychologist down the street. --Tilman 13:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

How about "clinical psychologist and adjunct professor of psychology"? Being even at "adjunct" at Berkeley is an important distinction. Tanaats 17:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

There are also professors of psychology who believe in UFO abduction.  :-) Steve Dufour 17:12, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

And there are people to whom "psychologists" are objects of suspicion and derision, so that calling someone a "psychologist" decreases their credibility.

What I don't see is why she can't be mentioned as a professor in a footnote. I don't believe 9/10ths of the readers are going to appreciate the distinction Tilman sees. Call her a "psychologist" and put in a footnote that says she was a clinical psychologist[ref] and an adjunct professor of psychology at Berkeley. Then those relatively few who want to know whether she was just your friendly neighborhood psychologist or a big shot will find their answer close at hand. (By the way, yes, to me it is meaningful to mention that it was at a university which happens to be well-regarded). Dpbsmith (talk) 20:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

For those who may not be quite clear on what an adjunct really is, here is a dictionary definition (two entries):

1. And He said unto their young men, "You shall toil many years of hard labor, yet even then only the favored few shall enter in, for it is written, 'many are called, but few are chosen'; the few shall apprentice and sit at the banquet feast, but the many shall be cast into the outer darkness, where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth, and their only succor mammon."

2. The supreme good is like water, which takes a low position and gathers in humble places. It does not strive to reach the top of the mountain, but is content to keep a lowly station, receiving neither fame nor patronage. Heralds speak not of it, and it does not strive. Thus it is like the Way of the adjunct.

It is the second definition of "adjunct" that applies to Singer. As I said above, her main job (on which she spent the vast majority of her time) was clinical psychologist, and she drew her conclusions from clinical observations. She did not use the methodology of research psychology. Her role as an adjunct, teaching an occasional class, is clearly secondary, and this activity doesn't make a person more of an expert. "Adjunct professor of psychology at Berkeley" can go in a footnote. -DoctorW 02:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Haha, so "funny". --Tilman 12:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ticket to Heaven

The movie Ticket to Heaven (with Kim Cattrall in her pre "Sex in the city" days :-)) has another form of "love bombing" at 0:25:00 and at 1:03:30. The cultists claim that they will bomb satan with love. Then they all chant "bomb with love! bomb with love! bomb with love!" --Tilman 18:47, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you could start a section on "love bombing in popular culture". Steve Dufour 04:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

What I am wondering is wether this form of "love bombing" was actually used in the Oakland Moonie recruitment compound, or wether the filmmaker simply made it up. Much of the film is clearly based on the Moon organisation. --Tilman 09:20, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Back in the 1970s the idea that we should love Satan would be considered very wrong in the Unification Church, so that part was made up. Steve Dufour 17:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Henson, part deux

Is anyone interested in re-opening the discussion on the Henson section? I was really surprised to find an electrical engineeer's theories presented in an encyclopedia article on Love Bombing. I'm a "computer engineer", and I also have talked with Margaret Singer. Can I also be considered a good primary source and get my own theories on the subject into the article? Thanks. Tanaats 23:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I take it back... somehow he got himself published in a journal. I don't know how. I withdraw my comment and my question. Tanaats 23:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)