Talk:Louis the Pious
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It is interesting to note that, when modern historians (those from the late 18th c. on) hearken back to an example of a unified Europe, it is the Carolingian Empire, not the Roman one, to which they turn.
You sure about this? I've heard plenty of hearkening back to the Roman Empire, too, especially by historians who specialize in antiquites. Besides, the Carolingian empire was somewhat small for a unified Europe, notably lacking in Spain, the Balkans, and Britain. And even though the treaty of Verdun was not responsible for the cultural differences between France, Germany, and Italy, they still existed, as any comparison of the parts of the late Empire will show.
- You're right, Josh - Rome is a model for a lot of people; but a fun fact to know and tell is that the first big UNESCO art and culture show was a year-long "Charlemagne's Aachen" Extravaganza in 1961 or 1962. The huge and scholarly catalog of the show was published in German, French, and English, and the 3-volume set of companion essays likewise. It was awfully explicit. Lots of Northern European scholars see Rome per se as both too Mediterranean and saw it in the 30 years after WWII as too burdened with a top-dressing of fascism. Medieval archaeology, which drove a lot of the last 50 years of scholarship, got a big kickstart from the bombing and other destruction of northern Europe during WWII, too! We'd really have MUCH less idea of early London without the Blitz! --MichaelTinkler
Some questions: olivier 04:36, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- Was he the second or the third son of Charlemagne?
- Did he inherit the whole empire, or was Italy excluded?
Depends on if you mean legitimate son or not -- he had three older brothers, Pepin the Hunchback, whose mother was a concubine -- but that didn't really mean much in terms of inheritance or transfer of power -- and then two full brothers who predeceased him, Charles and Carloman, king of Italy.
He inherited everything. Boots
[edit] Tortured who?
"all sons of Charlemagne's concubines, whom he had caused to be violently tortured and whom he had intended to put to death. "
Were the concubines or the sons tortured?
Any reference for that?
CaveShvig
This is nonsense! Louis banished his father's concubines from the court. He had his nephew Bernhard put to death. And that's about it. Str1977 (smile back) 07:55, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Seeing as I wrote most of the article, I was shocked to find that sentence in it. Reviewing histories, I found that it was added by Wetman. Perhaps he has a source. I know that I have seen conflicting accounts as to what exactly was done to the illegitimate children and the concubines: exile, forced monasticism, or some form of punishment. Bernard was blinded and and the trauma killed him, it was never Louis's intention to execute him. Srnec 15:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Birth date
After I had already removed a fictitious birth date of Louis the Pious in my edit of May 26, 2006, this exact but wrong birth date was added again on Dec. 5, 2006. Therefore, I would like to make clear now hopefully once and for all, The exact birth date of Louis the Pious is unknown. The sources don't mention it. Louis the Pious was NOT born on April 16, 778. This date does not get more true just because it is in the Encyclopedia Britannica online. All that we know by Astronomus in his biography of Louis the Pious (chapter 2 and 3) is that Louis was born in Cassinogilus (Chasseneuil) while his father Charlemagne was absent and on a military expedition in Spain. Josef Fleckenstein in his article about Louis the Pious in the Lexikon des Mittelalters (vol. 5, col. 2171, 1991), one of the best encyclopedias of the Middle Ages currently available, estimates for this reason that Louis the Pious was born between the June and the August of 778.
The birth date April 16, 778, however, MUST be wrong. Eginhard's annals mention that Charlemagne still celebrated Easter in Chasseneuil in 778, which fell on April 19 that year. But we know from Astronomus, I've already mentioned it, that Louis the Pious was first born during his father's subsequent absence from Chasseneuil. So whereever the misinformation "born on April 16, 778" may come from, just dismiss it, it's provably wrong. --131.220.97.115 17:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- P.S. Now I've also found a possible source for the misunderstanding about the Louis the Pious' birth date: this website [1] states that he is born "[Apr 16/Sep] 778", which is intended to name a period of time (and a wrong period, morevoer, because as explained above, the real period for the birth of Louis the Pious must be "born between after Apr. 19 and Sept. 778) - but anyway, someone may have misunderstood that online genealogy as if Louis the Pious was actually born on Apr. 16, 778. ---131.220.97.115 21:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
