Talk:Long s

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[edit] Macintoſh Keyboard

"On the Apple Macintoſh operating ſyſtem it can by typed by preſſıng the [Option] key then typing B or b."

This ſeems to be wrong. Option-b brings up the integral ſymbol, not the long s. – 84.178.114.236 12:42, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
That is the medial S... 68.39.174.238 03:42, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
No, it's not. They are different characters in Unicode.--Prosfilaes 21:40, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
You mean preſsing..? ;) --Thorri 14:50, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Nope. Preſſing is correct. Angr/talk 15:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Correct by what ſtandard? I've ſeen both in works publiſhed in pre-1800 Engliſh.--Prosfilaes 21:40, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I thought it was "preßing" Isn't the "ß" a compound "ſs"? --mordicai. 01:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The ß is a compound "ſs" like w is a compound vv (or uu). They may have originated as such a compound, but they are currently independent characters. If the font style in which you use an English long-s requires a ſs ligature, it should be provided for in the font just like an fi ligature, or an st ligature, or a ct ligature, would.--Prosfilaes 18:20, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Word compounds

It is important to note that many languages, eſpecially Germanic ones, make words by compounding ſhorter words and word fragments. When word a made is made from a part ending in s followed by another part, the compound word ſhould ſtill be written with a final s even though it is now inſıde a word. The correct uſe of long verſus ſhort s can make the ſtructure clearer, and ſometimes remove ambiguity. Therefore, I find the external article linked to extremely uninformative and poorly reſearched.

[edit] Why not name this page %c5%bf ?

I am confuſed as to why this page is named Long_s, and the page named ſ is the ſame as S. Shouldn't this page be renamed %c5%bf aka ſ, the connection between that name and S be removed? I gueſs maybe I juſt don't underſtand how wikimedia naming works.

cscibri 5 July 2005 22:14 (UTC)
The problem is that ſ is juſt a variant form of s. Hence its capital is ſımply 'S'. Since the Wikipedia forces all articles to ſtart with a capital, there is no way to have this article reſıde at ſ. Jordi·✆ 5 July 2005 22:24 (UTC)
I ſee... thanks for clearing that up. -- cscibri 6 July 2005 21:24 (UTC)
Yeſ, it ſhould be named that. I'll juſt change the redirect.-Monkey 13!!! 00:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I can't. -Monkey 13!!! 00:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
See my poſt above. The capital for ſ is ſimply S, and all articles muſt ſtart with a capital in the Wiki. -- Jordi·✆ 07:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other Queſtions

Why did the ſ fall into diſuſe? Hopefully this article might be improved with more elaboration. --Locarno 17:10, 30 Auguſt 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean? It has not fallen into diſuſe at all!--68.13.122.35 01:22, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
If you need help on this queſtion, you could ſubmit it to The LINGUIST Liſt. I have found this ſıte quite helpful in anſwering linguiſtic queſtions.

This page is BJAODN candidate material... 208.39.190.2 22:21, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] IPA "sh" sound

Am I the only one that thinkſ that thiſ lookſ like the IPA "sh" sound?Cameron Nedland 15:37, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Just to tell you, you were using ſ in the wrong place. It should never be used at the end of a word, only in the middle or at the start Sotakeit 16:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Not true. ſaintlinſ useſ ſ at the beginning and the end. —MEſEDROCKER (talk) 20:07, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
      • What is ſaintlinſ? A word like uſes will use the normal s at the end of the word in every book I've ſeen printed with the long-s, which is probably approaching a hundred books.--Prosfilaes 05:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is this funny??

I think this talk page looks funny! The Wikipedians who put meſſages on this talk page appear to want to use the long s in all their meſſages. Any other funny talk page to find?? Georgia guy 00:43, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

You ſinner! You broke the pattern! Why did you do thiſ? —MEſEDROCKER (talk) 20:08, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Jeez, you ſcrewed up the pattern. Uſe ſhort ſ's ſomewhere elſe.Cameron Nedland 23:35, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Where the bee ſucks, there ſuck I;
In a cowſlip's bell I lie;
There I couch when owls do cry.
On the bat's back I do fly
After ſummer merrily.
--William Shakeſpeare
That's ſheer ſucking genius. —Nightstallion (?) 22:49, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Descending?

Why is it called the "deſcending" s when it has an aſcender but no deſcender? Acſenray 21:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


You also ſcrewed up the pattern! But I dont know why its called deſcending.Cameron Nedland 23:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Long s had a dethender to begin with, and during the medieval era thcribeth gradually thortened the dethender part until long s had no dethender to thpeak of. Descenderless long esess are an example of atrophied letter forms. Oh gee, now I've completely broken the pattern.
Arbo 21:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Triple ſ

How would you spell "brasssmith"? Would it be braſſſmith?Cameron Nedland 16:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Who knows? Given that users of this style varied between writing a medial ss as ſſ and ſs, I seriously doubt that there was a standard for the incredibly rare triple s.--Prosfilaes 18:09, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Seeing as "brasssmith" is a compound word, I would gueſs the common uſe to be braſsſmith (though of courſe I can't be certain). --Algorithm 01:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I think it'ſ braſſſmith. -Monkey 13!!! 20:22, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
FWIW, German orþography made -ßſ- (braßſmiþ) from every triple ſ. Wikipeditor 18:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] misuse of characters.

∫ (U+222b) is not the long s; it does not have the letter property in Unicode, and it doesn't change when the text is automatically uppercased. It is defined to be the integral symbol.--Prosfilaes 04:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] May the ſ character bloſsom like the roſe

And, may the phyſical ſpacing of it one day improve. A very intereſting page with fine illuſstrations. CApitol3 12:39, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Uſage

I have abſolutely no idea on how to uſe it.. Any place I could uſe an normal 's' I can place an 'ſ'? Iſ it that ſimple? Or am I wrong? I probably am, but uſed it wherever I could becauſe I read the talk page before posting and people are juſt crucifying who don't uſe it... o_o' 200.230.213.152 22:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The rules weren't always applied conſiſtently, but the idea is that all lower-caſe S's should be written as "ſ" unleſs they're at the end of the word. The "s" we generally uſe uſed to be called the "terminal" s. —Chowbok 01:51, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Or frequently if the s was uſed in pairs; it would be paſsed, not paſſed.--Prosfilaes 13:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks... :D 200.230.213.152 20:07, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Stupid idea: how about creating ſs.wikipedia.org, an wikipedia 'language' uſing only ſ and ß? :D 200.230.213.152 20:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think "ſs" is a language Code. You would have to uſe something like "en-ſ" or "engliſh", ſimilar to "ſimple": simple:. 68.39.174.238 01:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alt code

Anyone knowſ it'ſ Alt (and other) codeſ, like in the ß page?

Macintoſh

   Option+s

Windows

   Alt+0223 (on the numeric keypad), Alt+225 (alſo on the numeric keypad), and Alt+98785 (alſo on the numeric keypad)

Alt+0223, Alt+225 and Alt+98785 all produce ß, not ſ, on my computer. Jake95(talk!) 19:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

98785 for me produces this chineſe character: 臡, but on non-unicode ſyſtems it would produce ß. The alt code for long-s is alt-0383 or alt-383, and only works on unicode ſytems. --Random832(tc21:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
You mean ſyſtems. Jake95(talk!) 16:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

X-based ſyſtems

   AltGr+s or Compose, s, s

GNU Emacs

   C-x 8 " s

GNOME

   Ctrl-Shift-DF or (in GNOME verſions 2.15 and later) Ctrl-Shift-U, df

200.230.213.152 22:33, 2 Nſvſmbſr 2006 (UTC)

Note the above are also all for ß, not ſ - Ctrl-Shift-17F for gnome in that case. --Random832(tc21:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why?

I certainly underſtand why the long s has fallen out of uſe, but could someone explain why it exiſted in the firſt place? Was there ſome typographical reaſon for having two different lowercaſe verſions of 's' but not other letters? --Birdhombre 16:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The long s was the original form of the letter in ſome handwritings, and the ſhort s was the variant. The ſhort variant was introduced becauſe it looked better uſed in ligatures and terminally. The long s ſeems to have fallen out of uſe as the elaborate handwritings did: by modern times handwritings had ſtarted to reſemble the ſhape of the letters alſo uſed in bookſetting (modern forms). There were certainly other letters with variant forms, such as the r rotunda, which alſo ſurvived to near-modern times. -- Jordi·✆ 17:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Not to mention the early ſtyle of printing would abbreviate an n or m at the end of the word with a daſh over the laſt vowel, when the typographer felt like it, along with a variety of other ligatures and ſymbols.--Proſfilaes 18:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
True. Medieval and early modern handwriting uſed many abbreviations and ſpecial characters now no longer uſed. -- Jordi·✆ 18:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick reſponſe. Theſe might be good to include in the article as well (or maybe it is and I juſt mißed it). --Birdhombre 23:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Moſt of the verifyable info is in the Hiſtory and Modern uſage ſections. One problem with theſe kind of characters is that it is hard to find print ſources of reaſons why it fell out of general uſe. -- Jordi·✆ 14:08, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Further about ſ

Ðe letter ſ is ſweet! We ſhould use it more. Alſo, braſsſmith is correct. I þink it alſo makes the word "ſcrewed" look muć better. Wiþ a compoſe key on Linux, you can uſe Compoſ, f, s to get it.

Ðiſ iſ getting ſilly. toresbe 23:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Breaking open templates

Let's not open templates onto the page in order to change their s's to the long-s. It makes it too hard to edit the templates and adds too much junk to the top of the page to make it worth it.--Prosfilaes 09:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Can this be moved to having ſ as the title?

I was under the impreſſion that lowercaſe letters were not a problem at the beginning of titles any more. Vitriol 16:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

It is ſupriſing that you have mentioned this as it is already mentioned under the ſubheading "Why not name this page %c5%bf ?". Of course they are are problem. Look at Ebay, IPod (and related articles), EMac, IBook, etc. If the problem was ſolved, then theſe articles would have been the firſt to be corrected, along with this one, ſurely? Jake95(talk!) 17:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I apoligiſe for not looking harder at this page to find a ſubheading already suitable. However, I'm not ſure I underſtand the reſt of what you are ſaying. It ſeems like you're ſaying the mentioned articles are not fixed, when they are. Call me confuſed :/ Vitriol 20:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Quite unfortunately, those articleſ are only ſemi-fixed. That iſ, they pretend to be fixed when they really aren't. If you view the articleſ you'll ſee that yeſ indeed the titleſ appear to be lowercaſe, but the titleſ they are ſtored under are really uppercaſe. The lowercaſe title iſ ſome Cſſ magic or ſome ſuch, but the article itſelf really beginſ with a capital letter. Here'ſ a demonstration of the problem: [[ſ]] comes out to be ſ... which if you hover over leadſ to S, not ſ. Thuſ the ſ article cannot be created... which ſucks. --Cadby (talk) 00:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (technical restrictions) is the place for anſwers! --mordicai. 03:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I just had to do it

I had some fun Stale Fries 03:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

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