Talk:Long Island

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
 This article is part of the New York State WikiProject, an attempt to better organize and improve articles related to the U.S. state of New York. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
High This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.

Contents

[edit] Unsupported crime statistic

The following statement was removed as it is unsupported and seems questionable:

<nowki>According to the National Census Bureau of Statistics, Long Island is considered the "safest place to live" per capita in the United States. </nowiki>

What is the National Census Bureau of Statistics? Is it the United States Census Bureau, and if so why the awkward construction? Shouldn't there be some sort of as of date or year for this data? How is Long Island defined: is it Nassau and Suffolk only or all four counties? All of these questions seem to require removal of the sentence. Let's reinsert this only if we can find documentation for the information. Alansohn 14:25, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

The crime section is a little better now..However, the section states that "Long Island is patrolled by NYPD, Nassau PD and Suffolk PD"..and gives a crime statistic. Where is this crime statistic from? Nassau? Suffolk? Brooklyn? Queens? or all four? As the article also states, even though Long Island includes Brooklyn and Queens, when people say "Long Island", 9/10 times they mean Nassau and Suffolk...meaning that the NYPD would not be patrolling in those areas. Thoughts? Flyerhell 05:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Long Islanders" claim to be from "the city"

The following statement was removed from the article: "Additionally, much perturbation has occurred as increasingly more "Long Islanders" claim to be from "the city," when in fact this is neither politically, geographically, or culturally accurate given the immense wealth, essentially nonexistent crime, and low density and diversity of the region."

Not only is it written poorly, unsupported and mostly nonsensical, my biggest issue is that it's simply not true. Having grown up on the South Shore and lived on the North Shore, in areas at the Nassau County / Queens border, no one I have ever heard who lived in Nassau would claim to be from "the city." This is only compounded by the fact that in almost every case the Nassau County community west of the border is perceived to be more socioeconimically desireable than its neighboring communities in Queens. From the Five Towns vs. Far Rockaway to Great Neck vs. Douglaston, and up and down the border, you'd be far more likely to find "Long Islanders" looking down their noses at the perceived yokels from "The City". If this wannabe mentality exists, it's most likely in the reverse direction, exemplified by the insistence of some Far Rockaway residents that they live in something called "West Lawrence." Alansohn 17:12, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The only time ive ever heard people from LI say they are from the city is in places outside of the NYC area where LI and NYC are synonomous. Maybe they sound "cooler" or whatever by saying they are from NYC Flyerhell 20:09, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
New York is an amazing city. Long Island is your average suburb. How do you figure that Long Islanders would not want to be perceived as living within New York city limits? While Douglaston may not be as affluent as Great Neck, it still must be frustrating to not be able to say one lives in New York City proper while being so close. So in that way, I would imagine that Great Neckers in some way are Douglaston wannabes. You don't think someone in New Hyde Park might brag that their zip code (11040) runs into Queens, for example? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wizard1022 (talk • contribs).
I spent a few years working at LIJ in New Hyde Park, and I can assure you that there would be no justification for those on the Nassau side to claim that they were from Queens. Consistently, the areas on the Nassau side of the border are more desirable than those on the New York City side. The few areas with a single name that straddle the border (New Hyde Park, Floral Park, etc.) only epitomize the point. Regardless of our respective opinions on the issue, any statement about Nassau or Suffolk residents calling themselves as from "The City" would have to be supported and documented or would be disqualified as original research. Alansohn 13:31, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Your argument is completely based on what seems to be regionalism. You just don't like Long Island, and you love NYC, so you think that everybody else shares your opinion and so would lie about being from LI. That is simply not true. There are absolutely no facts supporting anything like Long Islanders claiming to be from the City. Rory096 19:38, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
The idea of people from Long Island claiming that they're from New York is a familiar trolling exercise! Andrew73 19:04, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the only thing we can all agree on is that long island is perfect, and there's no reason that this article shouldn't be written to the standards of the long island propagand travel/tourist beuro--152.163.100.131 02:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
long island does not equal nyc just as 2 doesnot equal 1. you dont have our mayor you dont have our culture you arent us haha go make your own state so that you cant say you're part of new york city anymore. MIKE DIFULCO
You, kind sir, are acting like one of the yokels from the city that Long Islanders look down on. I'm a New Yorker too, and most of the eight million of us love our city just as you and I do, but you're not gonna convince anyone of New York's greatness with rhetoric like that. 64.131.211.228 04:13, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I could only wish that one day long island will become its own state. The taxes that plague us from the undesirable element of nyc will be the nails in our coffins.The arrogance that protrudes from the mouths of people living in nyc is disgusting.Rest asured, if we get the chance to leave n.y it would be a blessing. You are more than welcome to take care of the shit that calls its home nyc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.186.21.0 (talk • contribs).

  • yes, and I'm sure an island full of people whose only job skill is "comute to ny" would be a perfectly viable economic entity without having to be connected to the rest of the state--152.163.100.131 22:43, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, it works for New Jersey GavinSimmons 19:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
    • I think too many people here are worried about the NYC Metro area blending together, when the real problem is the drain on all NYC and NYC Metro taxes due to upstate New York.

[edit] Map of Long Island

The four counties of Long Island.
The four counties of Long Island.

Has anyone noticed that the map of the four counties of Long Island shown at the top of the article seems to be wildly inaccurate. In addition to what appear to be boundary problems, it also seems that many of the peninsulas have disappeard (or maybe broken off). The North Fork, and the Great Neck, Manhasset and Rockaway peninsulas all seem to be missing. Can we find a more detailed map that shows a more accurate outline, defines the borders and perhaps also shows major locations (including county seats and borough halls) along the way. Can anyone out there help with this? Alansohn 13:31, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Long island doesn't have 4 counties, it has 2 counties--152.163.100.131 02:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
    • I count four: Kings, Queens, Nassau and Suffolk. Anyone count any differently?
      • Kings and Queens counties are, politically, part of New York City (the boroughs of Brooklyn and Queens, respectively). There's no physical border between those and Nassau County, so in a sense, they're part of Long Island, in that they are physically on the same island. Generally, when someone is referring to Long Island, they mean Nassau and Suffolk counties only. —LrdChaos 03:18, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
        • For reference purposes, I inserted the map in question of "The four counties of Long Island." After further thought, I simply overlaid it with the present Mercator map, which created its own controversy. No matter what, there are four counties on Long Island. This article is about the island, not just the non-NYC portions thereof. Alansohn 03:45, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
          • Okay, let me explain the confusion over the term "Long Island." The name "Long Island" actually refers to two overlapping regions. One is the natural region - the island itself - which has four counties, Kings, Queens, Nassau, and Suffolk. The second, and more common usage, uses the term "Long Island" to refer to a particular social region within that natural region - and this social region is Nassau and Suffolk only. -Wizard1022 03:58, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
            • I've lived far too long on Long Island to need an explanation. While I never observed a ceremony, there have probably been hundreds of thousands of times when I had one foot in Queens County and the other on Long Island, all without crossing the body of water that by definition constitutes an island. I laugh along with everyone else when people use "Long Island" to mean Nassau and Suffolk only. All that said, the article we're dealing with is about the "Long Island" with four counties on it, not just the easternmost two. Alansohn 04:26, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
              • Well obviously this article doesn't refer to the geographical feature, or we'd have to move it to long archipelago, since it's really a whole bunch of little islands connected by large sections of filled in swamps and barrier beaches, clearly the fact that the article refers to a population of 3 million should be enough to prove that this article clearly only relates to the two eastern most counties--205.188.117.6 04:54, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
                • Are we reading the same article??? I see "7.4 million residents" in the first sentence of the article!?!? Sure, there are parts that aren't connected, but it's an island, swamps and all. Alansohn 05:04, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
                  • Well no, if you're going to play the geography card, then no, it's not one island at all, it's a long string of small islands, which makes it an archipelago, not an island at all, since the only other meaning long island has is colloquial, it should be easy to see that the article should refer only to the most common meaning, suffolk and nassau--205.188.117.6 05:29, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
                    • The way I read both the article and List of islands by area (where LI ranks in at #146). There are many other islands off the coasts of Long Island, but I'd say looking at a map that it's one, big island. What is the biggest island in the archipelago, after Long Island itself? Please, read the article and tell me that it's only about Nassau and Suffolk, not all four counties. Alansohn 05:59, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
                      • The article makes a few odd, random sounding references to Queens and Brooklyn, and their relation to long island, they sound like they were added later in the articles life by people from you know where trying to make it seem like long island actually has something to do with nyc other sharing a border with Queens, if you want a real test, go find some editors from either of the two boroughs, and see if they'd self identify with long island--64.12.116.131 17:11, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
                        • This has nothing to do with self identification. It's about an island. A long one. One that includes four counties; Kings, Queens, Nassau and Suffolk. Of course, it's appropriate to include the wacky geography that has people using "Long Island" to mean only Nassau and Suffolk. But folk usage doesn't change the facts. I've bicycled end-to-end from the 59th Street Bridge to Montauk, some 125 miles. I can assure you that it's one continuous island. I encourage you to read the article. With minor exceptions (which will be corrected), the article refers to all four conties, not just the easternmost two. Alansohn 17:26, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
                          • Geologically, long island isn't an island, culturally long island certianly isn't nyc, and if I'm not mistaken, according to a 1985 Supreme Court ruling long island essentially isn't an island in the legal sense either,
                          • in what way do you consider it an island? I'm not suggesting we re-write the article, but certianly there's no reason to pretend that long island extends beyond the Queens border, just because you want it to, suggesting that anything that touches long island must be part of it is silly, by that line of reasoning we may as well merge the articles on Canada and the United States, I can walk from one to the other if I ever feel the urge to visit upstate ny,

surely they must be the same thing--64.12.116.131 17:33, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

  • This is an article about an island. An island, says Wikipedia, "any piece of land that is completely surrounded by water." By that definition, all the land that touches any part of the island, is part of the island. I agree that there are cultural, political and sociological differences between the two counties on the left of the map and the two on the right. So what. I have seen every inch of the Queens / Nassau border and I can assure you that all four counties are connected by land on a single land mass surrounded by water. That makes it an island. I would never argue that the US and Canada are the same country because they share a border, and this has no relevance to what constitutes an island. take a look at Borneo, which is politically divided between Indonesia, Malaysia and Brunei, yet somehow constitutes one single island, despite the presence of borders. If Kings and Queens are not on Long Island, where are they? And please refer me to this "1985 Supreme Court ruling {that} long island essentially isn't an island" I'd love to see this one. Alansohn 17:59, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
  • As I said earlier, Long Island is a term referring to two different but overlapping regions: a natural region (i.e. an island) (4 counties) and a social region (2 counties) whose name happens to contain the word "island" even though it is only part of an island, or a peninsula more correctly then. However, place names containing the word "island" do not necessarily have to be an island, and such an argument misses the point. The State of Rhode Island is not an island, just a name of a state which contains the word "island." -Wizard1022 18:41, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
    • I have never argued that "Long Island" is never used to mean Nassau & Suffolk. All I am trying to clear up is the belief that "Long Island" only means Nassau and Suffolk. As stated in the lead sentences of the article:
Long Island is an island in New York, at 1,377 square miles (3567 km²) the largest island in the continental United States, and with 7.4 million residents, the 17th most populous island in the world. True to its name, the island is much longer, jutting out some 118 miles (190 km) from New York Harbor...
The article is thus about the island (i.e. the land mass surrounded by water that includes all four counties, not just the state of mind that its only the easternmost two. As to Rhode Island, it's not a Rhode and it's not an island, it's just a name. Talk amongst yourselves. Long Island is not just a name, it's actually an island. Alansohn 00:32, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
  • I think the question that remains is, would it be misleading to talk about Long Island as the counties Kings, Queens, Nassau and Suffolk when a fair amount of people refer to Long Island as just Nassau and Suffolk, no matter how grevious the misnomer? In other words, Long Island is both an island and a name. Let's talk about both. Kevin F. Story 06:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Then would Shelter Island be considered part of Long Island in this case? What about Atlantic beaches like Fire Island? Anthony71 18:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Average home prices

I'm pretty sure I read in Newsday a few months ago that the average has reached $400,000, but I can't find a source, besides maybe this one. Can anyone help me get an official website with the information on it? --Rory096 05:59, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

The article linked above refers to sale prices, which may not accurately reflect average home values. We need to have some source to document the statement in the main article. Alansohn 17:34, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I've added a reference for the statement, from a Newsday story on the subject. —LrdChaos 21:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template:New York City Islands

Should this really be here? While yes, two entire boroughs of NYC are physically on LI, we've established many times in here that Long Island is completely different from NYC. --Rory096 07:05, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Long island is north of most of westchester, and at least 2 other upstate counties

Map of upstate ny/long island
Map of upstate ny/long island

So, where are all those islanders who keep telling us if we could read a map we'd realize they weren't upstate? Because this map puts Suffolk County, north of "Mt. Vernon" which seems to be a bonafide part of upsate ny, you know what they say, if the Latitude and Longitude fits, wear it...--152.163.100.131 02:31, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Mt. Vernon is Upstate New York? That's news to this Brooklynite. Mt. Vernon is south of White Plains, which itself is considered part of the New York metro area and has much much much more in common with the city and its surroundings than with the rest of "Upstate." Hell, Mt. Vernon even borders the Bronx! Calling that upstate is like calling Jersey City a part of Central Jersey, which would be patently ridiculous. 64.131.211.228 04:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Thank you! Sure "upstate" can be defined as the area north of any arbitrary point, and not necessarily mean the literal northern area of a state, I think the connotation of the term "upstate" (rural, distant, the opposite of NYC) precludes applying it to any area within walking distance of the Bronx, at the VERY least. Personally I think upstate could begin even at some point in Upper Westchester, such as those Connecticut-like exurban areas like North Salem/Purdys, etc. which are substantially north of NYC. User 152.163.100.131: if a bunch of kids were playing football in the field at Mount Saint Michael Academy in the Wakefield section of the Bronx, and the ball flew over the fence into the front yard of a house across the street, they would technically be crossing over the NY city limits into Mt. Vernon to get it. So does that mean they must travel "upstate" to get the ball, considering the point I just made about connotation? If you Long Islanders just *gotta* have a term for NYS north of NYC, if somehow that is any sort of cohesive "region" to you, you should really come up with an alternate term. Wizard1022 02:48, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
hmm, that article on Upstate New York describes Upstate as starting north of Poughkeepsie, the outer end of Long Island is at least as far north east, as Poughkeepsie is to the north west, in fact quite a bit further really, "up" is all relatively arbitrary anyway, the "up" seems to imply anything north west of a certian point, saying that it can't apply to something to the north east by the same amount is semantics--152.163.100.131 22:40, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Been in NY all my life. There's Westchester--which is NORTH (hence on your way upstate.) Then it goes into the Bronx... which is South. further south is MAnhattan Island. EAST of Mahattan Island is Long Island--where Brooklyn and Queens begins. Technically Long Island jets out due east of new york city and is not upstate as some of you said. SyossetMan 00:37, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
It's based on perception. Most Long Islanders, I'd argue, consider anything north of the Bronx "upstate." Is it accurate? Not necessarily, at least until there's a set-in-stone definition of "upstate." As far as parts of LI being further north than Westchester: while geographically true, Long Islanders focus more on the east-west specifics (particularly because the Island is much wider than tall). As an analogy, take Hawaii. The state is the southernmost and the westernmost state in the country, but no one considers it part of the "West" or "South," nor do most people consider Alaska "North" in the way your typical northern states are. Anthony71 17:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Population

I've found several sites that cite the population of Long Island as 2.65 million, not the 7.4 million the article's first paragraph says. [1] [2]. Is the higher figure a misprint? --67.182.211.191 21:39, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't find the numbers you were mentioning at either link, but see the Demography section of the article, which explains that "As of the United States 2000 Census, the total population of all four counties of Long Island was 7,448,618. New York City's portion of the census was 4,694,705, with Brooklyn's population at 2,465,326 and Queens having 2,229,379 residents. The combined population of Nassau and Suffolk counties was 2,753,913 people. It was the first census in which the population of the larger, less densely populated Suffolk County (1,419,369) surpassed that of Nassau County (1,334,544)." Alansohn 21:43, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suburbia or Something Else

This is an interesting section that could use a little expansion. I do not agree with the statement that Nassau County includes mostly city commuters while Suffolk is inhabited primarily by professionals. Having lived in both Nassau and Suffolk, I'd like to point out that both areas are equally self-sustaining and both areas have equal avenues of employment for professionals. There are plenty of hospitals, schools, dentistry units, etc in Nassau and universities as well (see: Hofstra). Nassau is very much like Baltimore County, Maryland, another place I’ve lived with similar characteristics. While Baltimore houses commuters to its local metros of Washington and Baltimore (Baltimore County is Not Baltimore City), more than half are employed inside the county they live in. Now as for Suffolk, I’m surprised that no one has already pointed out that although it is difficult to commute daily from Greenport, thousands of people travel from Suffolk County to NYC every day on the LIRR. In fact it’s the country’s most patronized commuter railroad. Commute times are generally one and a half hours or less (about an hour from Deer Park). Two hours or less would be considered a reasonable commute time for most city workers. I do not wish to argue that either county is more typically a commuter county, I merely wish to argue that both counties are probably equals with Nassau having only slightly more commuters per capita. Heck, you’d have to work in NYC to buy property there at today’s prices. Perhaps there are figures from LIRR that can help our points. In the meantime I suggest developing the technoburb wiki if that is the proper term. GavinSimmons 00:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


Living more than ten miles from your job being essentially a 20th Century innovation, the division of the History section belongs with the building of the superhighways and the conversion of eastern Queens, Nassau and western Suffolk from farmland to residential suburbs. And no, the presence of universities, bakeries, bowling alleys, dental offices and other workshops serving the residential population does not turn a suburb into a "technoburb". If anything, the withering of the aviation industry demoted central Long Island from the status of a technoburb, but in any case it's a classification of little relevance, since suburban factories were commonplace long before five mile commutes were. Jim.henderson 15:11, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of Paumonauk

I took a college course on Long Island history here on Long Island, and although I did learn of this term, I am pretty sure it does not mean 'fish shaped island'. Specifically, it means 'The Island that Pays Tribute' - Although I can't remember enough details basically, surrounding indian tribes were jealous of the resources of long island and were much more warlike than the long island indians. They would have the long island indians pay tribute to them in order to prevent them from attacking long island. So I am going to change this, as I was taught by perhaps one of the most well-knowledged professors on the subject and a true long island historian. A source for this would be very useful but as we even learned in class, there literally is no text-book on long island history. I'm going to change this slightly in the article and I hope anyone with better information or sources can help out. Once again, I would not do this unless I were absolutely sure of the actual meaning of Paumonauk. In addition, I am changing the spelling to one used by Walt Whitman - Paumanok.


[edit] Depends on where you're at

I had a friend across the border on Ryder Road. In the Munsey Park playground, he said he was from Ryder Road. MP has no high school, so in Manhasset High school he was from Munsey Park. When we went to the movies in Great Neck or the beach in Manorhaven, we were both from Manhasset. In the Hamptons, we were from Nassau County. In Brooklyn, from "The Island". In New Jersey, from Long Island. In Detroit, from New York. In Wyoming, from "back east." If we were ever in some hick town in eastern Peru or northern Burma, we would probably be from "America" and if they never heard of that, then from "far across the sea" and if they never heard of the sea, then simply from "far away." Where you're from depends on where you're at and whom you're talking to. Long Islanders hundreds of miles from home are New Yorkers and no need to be ashamed either way, or to explain to strangers the complexity of whether Munsey Park is part of Manhasset or not. Jim.henderson 04:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maybe a stupid question

Lindsay Lohan comes from Long Island, right?

YES AND NO. Yes, she comes from Long Island, No she is not from Merrick. Lohan resided in the leas affluent side of Huntington.

[edit] Demography

I have added population figures by county to the Demography section because I believe presenting amalgamted numbers blurs the stark distinction in population between the urban and suburban counties, and that the distinction exists is a fact according to the US Census Bureau. I used the bulleted format for clarity and ease of comparison. Cryptonymius 17:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Also.....I have removed the following sentences, which are unsourced: "The largest ethnic presence is that of Jewish Americans who comprise 34.0% of Nassau County and 29.8% of Suffolk County by population. Long Island also has a substantial Italian American presence, accounting for 28.8% of Suffolk's population and 23.9% of Nassau's as of the 2000 census."

I have found no US Census Bureau data to either confirm or contradict the assertion regarding the Jewish population, and it may be that the Census Bureau is prohibited by public law from inquiring into religious affiliation. However, the Wiki article on Distribution of Jewish-Americans [[3]] claims that the Jewish populations are as follows: Nassau 15.5%, Queens 10.7%, Kings 15.4%, Suffolk 7%.

The assertion regarding Italian-Americans appears to approximate the US Census Bureau 2003 American Community Survey for the Nassau-Suffolk NY PMSA [[4]] which estimates Italian-Americans account for 708,657 of a total population of 2,754,769, or roughly 25.7%. My question however is whether any of this data should be included in this article, and if it is included just how selective should it be and which ethnicities and religions should be included. Cryptonymius 07:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Noteworthy People"

This sections lists two people that I'm sure most Long Islanders have never heard of. Should this section be removed, considering there's already a List_of_famous_Long_Islanders? Anthony71 15:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Far removed from the hustle and bustle of suburbia?

The next to last para in Transportation paints a nice picture of the east end, but it seems to me I've heard any number of people over the years saying that Montauk and Sunrise Highways become a jammed-up nightmare in the summer if you're trying to get anywhere near the Hamptons--and maybe this section could be revised a little by someone with personal experience? Cryptonymius 07:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../l/o/n/Talk%7ELong_Island_9591.html"