User talk:Logoi

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Welcome!

Hello, Logoi, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! --Kaasje 09:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Asian fetish

Hi, Logio. I think you're doing a good job trying to inject some reality into the article. I tried participating in the "dialogue" at that page a couple months ago first openly admitting that if anyone has an "Asian fetish," I certainly do. By that, I mean that I've always been attracted to Asian women, dated them almost exclusively, and have been happily married to an Asian woman for over a decade. I was then told (by Wzhao553) that I didn't have an Asian fetish because I was in a "normal" relationship. My understanding is that before I was married, they'd call me an "Asian fetishist" because I was seeking out Asian women exclusively-- asserting "fetishist" and other motives upon my reasons for doing so. But once I'd settled on one & built a life-long relationship with her, now I'm in a "normal" relationship, and my attraction to Asian women is not "fetishistic".

During my participation at the article, I tried analyzing the sources on the talk page, showing how ludicrously opinionated, unbased in any kind of fact or research, fraudulent and completely inappropriate they were for any kind of serious article. (Besides being mainly about stereotypes, not a fetish. Though now they try to claim the fetish is on the stereotype... so shouldn't the article be called "Asians as stereotyped by U.S. media-fetish?... what tangled webs we weave...) Most are just opinion pieces, and others are extremist academic nonsense of the variety that helps wrongly taint academia as out of touch with the real world. Other editors clearly trying to create a genuine NPOV article, and I (though I admit my own POV, and refrained from editing the article because of it) were rudely shouted down by WZhao553, who now that his opponents have left, poses as a defender of decorum. (user:Gnetwerker was one of the best of these editors. He had no stake in either Point of View, and yet he was constantly treated in a rude, condescending and even racist manner by WZhao553 until he was finally driven out.)

I gave up trying to participate at the article when it became apparent to me that it's useless to show their hypocricy to those who know they are being hypocritical, and don't care.

For your own contributions, I'd suggest trying to find more back-up sources for the points you make, though, obviously, those who write on this subject are those with the axe to grind. And those of us happily involved in mixed-race relationships usually have other concerns in our lives than defending our relationships to bigots.

I'd like to point out also that, probably because they know they are defending racism while trying to appear to be fighting it, these individuals are not above openly lying to spread their views. The article quotes David Henry Hwang saying, "I have often heard it said that 'Oriental women make the best wives.' (Rarely is this heard from the mouths of Asian men, incidentally.)" Apparently Hwang doesn't associate much with Asian men (as opposed to Asian-Americans), because I heard this stated constantly when I lived in Asia. It seems to be a point of pride. And why shouldn't it be? (Which brings up a point: On your User page you say "Asians" promote the concept of an "Asian fetish," though I have never heard of any such thing from my Asian friends and family. I've only seen this concept from the more racially-segregationist Asian-American activists online.)

And just recently, Wzhao553 clearly lies when he states on the talk page, "I think that would be a fair addition, so long as it is pointed out that white men feel that it is also fairly clear that some people are using the label to discourage interracial relationships. (Out of all the times that I have seen this criticisms, I do not believe I have ever seen it come from someone who is not a white male.)"

He has read and discussed this article: The Asiaphile concept is only supported by racist Asians. at a personal site by Kenneth Omura. (This is linked at the article under "Personal websites")

With this lie (calling it a "lie" is in no way an exaggeration) Wzhao553, confirms my worst suspicions about his purpose in editing this article. He is a racist intent on using Wikpedia to put forth his racial-segregationist agenda. (HongQiGong's claim to be involved in an interracial relationship notwithstanding, his rhetoric and hyper-sensitive reaction to criticism indicate he is fully in the racial-segregationist camp.)

My take on these segregationist Asian-American activists is that they are unsure of their own identity. They're not Asian like their ancestors, but they don't feel completely American either. They are bitter about stereotypes and prejudices they (rightly) feel they are subjected to, but instead of working positively to eliminate these things, they brood over them, and try to retreat back into an impossible ethnically/culturally pure cocoon. Their distance from real Asian culture prevents them from seeing that similar things exist there as well, and magnifies in their minds the injustices they feel exist only in American society. When they see members of their own community marrying with the "outsiders," it makes them all the more insecure about losing their Asian past and being absorbed into the broader American culture.

I hope you don't mind my using your talk page to make a few points. I am interested in the subject, obviously, and don't want to see Wikipedia used by people pushing extremist agendas. But I found my time at the article to be ultimately a waste of time. -- Human Fetishist 15:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback and insight Human Fetishist. Your points about citing sources and the fact that this is an Asian American phenomena as opposed to an Asian phenomena are well taken. You might be interested to read WZhao's blog . If you wanted to enter the fray, I think you would be capable of making statements that are NPOV since you can at least perceive your own bias and would be a valuable contributor. Ultimately, I think its going to be a good article and reach a stable state after enough insistence on Wikipedia standards occurs.Logoi 17:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Logoi. I trust you and several of the newer editors are making it into a better article, as you say, by focusing on Wikipedia standards. First, what the term actually means, and how it is used needs to be stated honestly. Personally, I feel it is akin in meaning and purpose to the older "n-lover" used against black/white relationships. (Meaning: those who are involved in, or seek out interracial relationship suffer from some sort of mental disorder, Purpose: to discourage interracial relationships.)
One point I think is coming close to being addressed, but isn't quite, is on media stereotypes. The Asian-Americans seem obsessed with them, and I can certainly understand the anger these shallow stereotypes inspire. But, I feel it is nonsensical to assert that these create any kind of "Asian fetish." In the first place, most of us are lucky enough to live around many Asian people, and know first-hand that the stereotypes are just that-- stereotypes. In the second place, anyone dealing with a person based on these stereotypes will quickly be corrected.
As far as the sex-crimes against Asian women (by white men) argument: The rare examples of sick, perverted white guys harrassing Asian women are more than balanced (I am sure) by perverts harrassing women of their own race, Asian or white.
I found the time I spent at the article to be depressing, due to the extreme negativity I encountered from the activist sources cited, and from the behavior of some of the editors. I wish you and the other editors luck in improving the article, but will devote myself to other pursuits. I will probably continue to check in and comment now and then. Feel free to contact me whenever you wish. -- Human Fetishist 23:58, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Human fetishist, thanks again for the comments. It's not just that stereotypes will be corrected, but that it is totally implausible that stereotypes can inspire attraction of the magnitude and extensiveness claimed by proponents of this theory. This has never been shown by anyone. It is much more plausible to understand this attraction as attraction to specific women from a certain ethnic group for all the usual reasons women are attractive to men. Logoi 06:45, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chin and Chan section

Chin and Chan criticism should be merged with racist love.--Dark Tichondrias 03:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] All the content on the Asian fetish page has been removed

All the content on the Asian fetish page was removed by User:71.124.114.26 and replace with his/her version.--Dark Tichondrias 03:50, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] slang

Asian fetish is not slang. The fact that it can't be found in the dictionary does not mean that it is slang anymore than any other two gramatically correct couplings of words. Slang terms for Asian fetish exist, such as yellow fever, rice chaser, or whatever else there is. This isn't any more slang than "compact car" or "oral fixation". It is generally intelligible by anyone who knows what the two words mean, where as slang, is generally intelligible to those in specific circles, oftentimes using words that have other meanings. In "Asian fetish", the roles those words have in the phrase are identical to the definitions of the words alone. "Yellow fever" on the other hand is not necisarily recognizable to those who understand the meanings of "yellow" and "fever", and means something entirely different when the words are coupled together, in this case, "yellow" changes from a color, to describe a people, and "fever" changes from an illness, to an insatiable condition. And don't insult me on my own talkpage. Bethereds 19:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Fetish has a variety of meanings. See talk page for asian fetish, I've started the slang section and we can duke it out over there. Logoi 19:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

To answer your question, I don't think it necessarily adds to the Asian fetish article to indicate that the term is slang. --Lukobe 05:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Whether or not it is is kind of irrelevant... --Lukobe 05:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wzhao's blog

I read the two movie scripts he wrote about the AM, AF and WF. I don't want to discuss it because it might be considered a personal attack on User:Wzhao553. --Dark Tichondrias 05:38, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I read the scripts and looked around other areas of the blog too, Logoi. The words that come to mind are, "Good God!"
Dark Tichondrias is absolutely correct. The scripts show such a degree of misogyny, adolescent misunderstanding of human relationships, obsession with race, and, above all, self-contempt, that that it would be difficult to discuss this record in any way without appearing to attack its author.
Especially telling is another part of the journal where the author implies that he lives the "model minority" stereotype himself contrary his own desire, but thinks he compensates for it by writing about "Asian fetish" on Wikipedia. In other words, he doesn't have the courage to live his life as he wishes, so he uses Wikipedia as a way of railing against those who do. -- Human Fetishist 03:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Throwing in the towel

Hi, Logoi. Sorry to hear you're throwing in the towel, though I certainly understand how tiring it can be beating your head against the wall of negativity some of the editors represent, and I wonder if it's even productive.

These editors pose as "anti-racist," yet an investigation of their edit histories shows that what are against is only white racism, while actually openly promoting an Asia- (usually, for whatever reason, specifically China)-centrist viewpoint. It's the kind of attitude that pretends to oppose imperialism by substituting Aglo/American-imperialism with Sino-imperialism (or pre-WWII Japanese imperialism). Imperialism is imperialism, racism is racism. There is no "reverse-racism."

Imagine a group of "white" editors starting an article on sex crimes against white women by non-white men. They could claim all they want that they are just innocently presenting the facts, but the racist agenda behind the creation of such an article is obvious. The point would be to smear non-white men generally by singling out these incidents because of the race of the perpetrator/victim, and to smear interracial relationships specifically, by searching out and highlighting deviant behavior only if it occurs between races. It's no different with the Asian fetish and Sex crimes against Asian women in the United States articles, except that Asian-Americans can hide behind their status as a racial minority in this country. Why else would these editors show such concern only about crimes against Asian women in America (as long as they're committed by non-Asian men), with no corresponding concern about sex crimes against Asian women by Asian men in America or in Asia? Or against non-Asian women by Asians in Asia?

The worst thing about this sort of editor is that they actually re-inforce the kind of stereotypes they claim to disagree with. In my own relationships with Asian men, I have found very, very few who have as much an inferiority complex/chip-on-the-shoulder as these editors show. (How pathetic is it to claim that an attraction to women of their race must be the result of some sort of mental disorder?) And when I have met such a person, I have seen no good reason to associate with them or to argue with them. My (Asian, naturally) father-in-law and brothers-in-law, as well as many other male Asian friends are as proud of their heritage as they have every right to be, but are secure enough not to feel threatened in any way by my marriage.

Since I myself have no stomach for arguing with the kind of people these editors represent, whether they're white, Asian or any other "race," I can't blame you for tiring of it either. I hope you find more positive pursuits here on Wikipedia, and hope (if its your preference) you don't let your experiences at this article in any way discourage an involvement in a mixed-race relationship. -- Human Fetishist 23:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Personal attacks against User:Wzhao553

Wzhao has alerted me that you have been making personal attacks against him on this page, and posting his personal information here. If you continue to do this - regardless of whether or not you leave the text on the page in later revisions - then you may be blocked. Even if you delete personal attacks at a later time, it remains in the page history. Please keep this in mind. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 16:53, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Right to vanish

Hi, sorry to see you're leaving. Accounts here can't actually be deleted. You can rename your account if you need to at Wikipedia:Changing username.

User pages can be deleted; see WP:CSD#User_pages and Wikipedia:User_page#How_do_I_delete_my_user_and_user_talk_pages.3F. Just tag any pages in your user space (e.g. your user page, user talk page, user subpages) that you want to delete with {{db-owner}}. They should be deleted shortly afterward by any admins who are patrolling the category of pages tagged for speedy deletion.

This information is available in more detail on meta:Right to vanish. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 16:56, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

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