Talk:Lives of the Twelve Caesars

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Contents 1 Expansions possible 2 cleanup 3 Outlines: length? cleanup needed? 4 Caligula and Nero 5 Aryan

[edit] Expansions possible

Please, please,please don't redirect this straight to Suetonius. Wherever Suetonius is just used as a shorthand for this work, I'm linking to here in case Lives of the Twelve Caesars is later split off. It may take me a while as there are about 500, so any help would be gratefully received. Thanks! Neddyseagoon 22:50, 11 March 2006 (UTC)neddyseagoon

Support neddyseagoon's split. Just logical. "Suetonius" is a person (can, e.g., be sorted in an authors category); Twelve Caesars is a text (can be sorted in categories on texts). Both articles can be expanded, they deserve that, and I already have some ideas, to which I'd be prepared to collaborate:

• Suetonius article:
  • write something about the pseudo-Suetonius, I heard about today [1]
  • Elaborate on comparisons of Suetonius' style/historic reliability, to e.g. Tacitus; Plutarch; Cassius Dio; Robert Graves (note that e.g. the Tacitus bio has two very full pages -that is, apart from a page on each of his works-, a big part of these pages devoted to such topics as his style/importance as historian)
• Twelve Caesars article:
  • give some more detail about each of the 12 biographies;
  • mention something about Caesar being an emperor or not (compare Roman Emperor#The first Roman Emperor, referring to Suetonius; and Emperor#Ancient Rome - origin of Western terminology);
  • Give a good section on links to Latin/English on-line versions of each of the 12 emperors (doesn't need to be so elaborate as the table at Parallel Lives, but nonetheless something like that is what I have in mind)

...etc --Francis Schonken 23:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks. Would appreciate help in following those up. Neddyseagoon 01:46, 13 March 2006 (UTC)neddyseagoon

[edit] cleanup

Recast the "Influences Sources and veracity" paragraphs into single paragrapgh, "Veracity, criticism, and influences." MOved info about subjecetivity of Claudius section to "Veracity, criticism, and influences" section. Minor cleanup, typos. :) Dlohcierekim 18:49, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

If you're going to write summaries of the bios, at least get the guts to include the juicy parts which this work is famous for. Fornadan (t) 21:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Outlines: length? cleanup needed?

The outline of Julius Caesar's biography has been expanded and badly needs another cleanup for spelling etc. But isn't it too long, anyway? I would like to see shorter, more critical outlines. I expect someone will say "You write them, then!" ... Andrew Dalby 13:56, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I am still editing this, and am going to run a spell check in a second. How exactly should we condense the summaries without causing parts of the work to be missed? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.164.157.221 (talk • contribs).

[The following copied across from my user talk page User talk:Andrew Dalby:]

== Seutonius ==

I am editing "The Twelve Caesars." How exactly do you think the entry should be changed? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.164.157.221 (talk • contribs).

Thanks for your edits, which are adding a lot of interesting material.

One problem is spelling. The author's name, for example, is often misspelt in various ways in the article, and this looks bad. The correct spelling is Suetonius -- but you notice that you have written it differently above.

Another problem for me is that the outlines are just like a short biography of each emperor. If I want the biography, I would read the article on the Emperor concerned, or else I would read the whole text of Suetonius. I would expect a good encyclopedia article about The Twelve Caesars to tell me how many sources and what kind of source materials Suetonius cites, maybe listing them; how he organizes his material on each emperor; how his information compares with other major sources available to us; whether his view of each emperor seems biased, and in what direction, and why; whether there is a significant difference between the way he treats Julius Caesar and the way he treats Domitian (for example), and if there may be a reason for that.

I'm not saying one person has to do all this -- it takes a lot of people to make a good Wikipedia article -- but I think at present there is too much simple biography in the summaries, and I suspect they will get shortened again, by someone else if not by me.

Incidentally, would you think it a good idea to get a username and sign in before editing? You don't have to, but it makes it easier to work with others on improving Wikipedia. Andrew Dalby 14:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Caligula and Nero

There are some details under Caligula that really belong under Nero: These relate to Nero having a boy castrated and 'turned into a woman': All of this is attributed to Caligula in the article, so I am going to edit this, if nobody minds!android 10:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aryan

"White supremacists incorrectly cite Suetonius as evidence that the ancient Roman aristocracy was "Aryan" or "Nordic," (as opposed to Mediterranean or Italianate). Suetonius is often cited for this principle, because he is one of the only ancient sources that includes the physical attributes modern humans consider to be important (e.g., hair color, eye color), which other ancient writers did not deign to include.

Nevertheless, the Suetonius's Latin is often mis-translated or just misunderstood. For example, Galba's eyes are described as "cerulean" -- the color of the ocean at night. Most translations simply write "blue." Augustus's hair is described as changing color as he aged, which is often translated as "yellowing." Nero is described as having hair "that changed color in the sun." This could simply mean a tawny (reddish) brown, or be yet another dig by Suetonius at Nero's effeminacy and homosexuality -- as during Roman times, only women dyed their hair blond.

Those who look for evidence of the Aryan nature of the ancient Roman aristocracy overlook evidence to the contrary in Suetonius, evidence that comports more with an aristocracy that would look like modern Italians. For example, Caesar's eye color is described as "black" -- not brown, but black. Augustus is described as having a "monobrow." Finally, several of the emperors are described to have prominent, hooked noses -- the "Roman nose" present in many Italians, French and Spaniards today."

• How are these paragraphs relevant to the reliability of suetonius, and why is so much space dedicated to this issue?

-- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Musungu jim (talk • contribs).

I agree with you. These paragraphs were added anonymously on 10 March. I think they are boring and pointless (I never heard any White supremacists cite Suetonius) so I have removed them, just reinserting a couple of useful details (that Suetonius gives good info on the physical appearance of the emperors, and that he took omens seriously). Andrew Dalby 21:35, 20 March 2007 (UTC)