Talk:Litotes
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[edit] Votes for Deletion
- Litotes and pretty much any term linked from Figures of speech - these are dictionary definitions - DropDeadGorgias 20:43, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)
- I've gone through the links from Figures of speech, and these are all of the articles that are purely definitions: Accumulatio, Aposiopesis, Meiosis (figure of speech), Anastrophe, Anthimeria, Catachresis, Chiasmus, Periphrasis, Enallage, Hyperbaton, Metalepsis, Paralipsis, Proslepsis, Syllepsis, Synecdoche, Tmesis, Dystmesis, Zeugma. I don't know what the policy on batch-vfds is, so please let me know. Should I go put the subst:vfd on every page?- DropDeadGorgias 21:17, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)
- Relocate 'em all, then delete. (Not my job :D) Oberiko 22:50, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Keep or relocate in Wikitionary It is useful to have handy access to these rather obscure terms (speaking as an English/Rhetoric major who could never keep all these things straight). Bkonrad 23:56, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I don't dispute the validity of the content, or that the article is educational; I just think it belongs in Wiktionary. Reading most of these articles, I couldn't help thinking that they should all begin with a pronounciation key and (noun). - DropDeadGorgias 15:26, Feb 25, 2004 (UTC)
- Keep or merge. DrZ 02:22, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Keep all
but one-liners. I don't understand why you singled some of these but skipped others. The one-liners should probably be removed, but many of these terms are important enough to deserve an entery and aren't bad stubs now, like Synecdoche. Cool Hand Luke 05:50, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)- I left off the links that pointed to words with other encyclopedic value (beyond the dictionary definitions) such as Allegory or Paradox. My razor may have been to broad though; as it stands, I think Synecdoche could stay. - DropDeadGorgias 15:26, Feb 25, 2004 (UTC)
- If you acknowledge Synecdoche as an encyclopedic stub, shouldn't you be likewise compelled to keep Aposiopesis, Catachresis, and Chiasmus? Maybe even Metalepsis, Enallage, Paralipsis, Syllepsis, and Tmesis. However, I don't think this is productive. As Nunh-huh says below, these really should be in an encyclopedia, and individual entries are much more sensible. An article on some particualar work or author can link precisely to the literary device they employ. We see just such links to Synecdoche, Tmesis, and Chiasmus. Because these articles are worthy of entry and useful as currently arranged, the only problem is than some of them are just definitions. Put them on cleanup and keep the rest. Nothing about these topics makes them inherently unfit for entry. One could explain about the history of the device or prominent examples of it, just as many of the articles you cite already do. Cool Hand Luke 23:42, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I left off the links that pointed to words with other encyclopedic value (beyond the dictionary definitions) such as Allegory or Paradox. My razor may have been to broad though; as it stands, I think Synecdoche could stay. - DropDeadGorgias 15:26, Feb 25, 2004 (UTC)
- Keep them all. An encyclopedia must cover language and this is part of encyclopedic language coverage. Jamesday 16:11, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- An encyclopedia quite clearly needs a full explanation of the figures of speech in it. So does a dictionary. These shouldn't be removed: if you want to pack them into the Figures of Speech article because it seems "more encyclopedic" that would be fine, but the current organization frankly seems more servicable. -- Nunh-huh 05:55, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Keep. I've put a stub warning and a little extra material into the Litotes article. It's a specialised field, sure, but this is certainly worthy of an article and I suspect the others are too. Just for interest, do any of those wanting to delete have any expertise in formal linguistics? Andrewa 06:00, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Actually, I find the articles very educational and interesting (i was able to use the word Synecdoche in a conversation the other day), but I just feel that most of these are really wiktionary material, rather than wikipedia). - DropDeadGorgias 16:32, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)
- Keep. Nunh-huh is right. Having a lot of definitions in Wiktionary is fine; but a list all in one place is of great value. I wouldn't waste your time telling why a person might want to find out that the rhetorical figure he's using is called paralipsis; and just the other day I couldn't think of aposiopesis when CIcero was saying--but that's another story. Dandrake 01:49, Feb 28, 2004 (UTC)
- Keep, reason given above in my reply to the larger list. Jamesday 16:11, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Keep. Optim 14:07, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Keep. I'm hoping to work on all the pages of rhetorical devices soon (provide examples and whatnot). --Dupes 13:27, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
- Keep. Fallacious. Litotes is a specific literary term that deserves a page. It needs expansion, not deletion. --Knucmo2 19:00, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Keep. --Error 21:54, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I've gone through the links from Figures of speech, and these are all of the articles that are purely definitions: Accumulatio, Aposiopesis, Meiosis (figure of speech), Anastrophe, Anthimeria, Catachresis, Chiasmus, Periphrasis, Enallage, Hyperbaton, Metalepsis, Paralipsis, Proslepsis, Syllepsis, Synecdoche, Tmesis, Dystmesis, Zeugma. I don't know what the policy on batch-vfds is, so please let me know. Should I go put the subst:vfd on every page?- DropDeadGorgias 21:17, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)
Except for the last two entires, this vote is over one year old. It just seems like noone ever closed the vote; I don't know how that's done. But the concluision seems clear: Keep!--Niels Ø 18:40, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Esperanto Litotes
Any Esperantists around? How does Esperanto mark litotes? Malmal-? --Trebor, 21 March 2004
- Malmal- seems very contrived. I don't remember such forms but in wordplay. I think that - Kiel vi fartas? -Nemalbone. ("- How are you? - Not bad." is more natural. ne- ("not") and mal- (~= "un-") are often not synonyms. The classical example is neutila or senutila ("useless") and malutila ("perjudicial") from utila ("useful"). Don't know if nemalbone qualifies as litotes.
- I don't remember examples of nene- or ne ne-, but they may be used. Personally I'd try something like ne sen- ("not *-less") to avoid repetition. Altough, nenecesa (ne-+ necesa, "not necessary") is quite common, so maybe it's not so cacophonic.
- (Off-topic) A jokester could try to convince you that derlanda is a synonym of nenederlanda ("not Dutch"), because both ne cancel themselves. Same about malmalajzia" ("un-Malaysian").
[edit] Examples
I have removed the following passage:
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- Also in French, the idiomatic saying "ce n'est pas terrible" in English would literally translate as "it isn't terrible" and would therefore appear to be an understatement actually asserting the contrary. But in fact, "ce n'est pas terrible" means that the thing in question really was awful.
This passage is just confused. "Terrible" is a false-friend in French; it means "wonderful" or something of the sort. So "ce n'est pas terrible" is just a straightforward example of litotes, not the odd French usage the author seemed to think. --Christopher M 22:12, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
- Um, no. I don't know enough about the subject to really correct the article, but I can tell you that the French word terrible does indeed mean terrible; see terrible - Dictionnaire Français-Anglais WordReference.com, or any other dictionary. Ruakh 00:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
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- I didn't word my objection very well. "Terrible" in French means (in relevant part) something that inspires strong emotion. To say something is "pas terrible" means that it doesn't do that, because it's mediocre. The passage I removed assumed that the "terrible" in "ce n'est pas terrible" means "awful," which it doesn't. --Christopher M 00:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
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- Oh, I see. Apparently (according to Le Trésor de la Langue Française informatisé), the phrase pas terrible with the meaning médiocre derives from the no-longer-very-common sense Sensationnel, extraordinaire, propre à susciter l'admiration. (Granted, the origin of a phrase is not necessarily the same as its current use — in this case I think pas terrible is pretty much an idiom, usable even by those who don't know about terrible's old-fashioned sense.) Either way, that example has been gone for a while now, so don't worry about it. :-) Ruakh 02:59, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] That meal wasn't bad
I would dispute that this is an example of Litotes. This is much more a descriptive statement used to describe a meal that, while not unpleasant, certainly was nothing to get excited about, rather than a statement used to emphasize the outstanding quality of the meal. I, however, am a writer that never really studied rhetoric in depth, and would rather defer to someone who knows this better than make the change immediately. Not my leg 21:27, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
- I've definitely heard, "That's not bad!" used to mean something like, "That's pretty good (and I didn't expect it to be)!"
- I've also heard it in a larger sentence, like "That's not bad, but it's not good, either." (The article alludes to this sort of thing, but makes it sound like it's specific to explicit "not not" constructions, which it isn't. That should be fixed.)
- So, it can definitely constitute litotes, and I think it's a good example in that it demonstrates that the same sentence can be litotes in one instance and not in another, but maybe the article should be edited to be more clear about this? Feel free to take a stab at it! Ruakh 04:31, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
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- I would agree with that. I don't have the time to do a rewrite now, but it is a good example of a case where context is probably more important than just the words themselves, as this could be used either way. Not my leg 19:15, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
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- Could there be a cultural difference? In tiny Denmark there is: When people from Jutland say "That meal wasn't bad" or "It could be worse" it means "It was really good". People from Copenhagen don't say so, unless they make fun of the Jutlandish litotes. Apus 13:03, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] The queen was not amused.
litotes? What do you think? Does the Queen say something like "I am not amused" herself or is it always the press that writes this sentence in reference to the ideal of understatement? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.56.45.77 (talk • contribs) .
- I think the standard line is actually We are not amused; see Pluralis majestatis (royal we). Ruakh 16:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] French?
"Il ne faut pas qu'il aille" means "it is necessary that he not go"
Are you sure about that?
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by PiCo (talk • contribs) .
- I don't know what you you're addressing, but I'm sure of it. (Though I'd translate it as "He must not go.") Why? Ruakh 02:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think this is just a trick of translation. If you translate it, "He must leave" versus "He mustn't leave," the mystery all but disappears.Travis 02:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
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- I'm also unsure about this. My French isn't that great, but I'd be inclined to translate that as "it's not necessary that he go," since, well, that's what it says. Non? The latter would be "Il faut qu'il n'aille pas," would it not? Graft 19:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Non. « Il ne faut pas qu'il aille » means "He must not go." (Don't ask me for an explanation; I don't know of one, except to say that that's simply how it is.) Ruakh 22:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
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- I'd like to point out that "Il ne faut pas qu'il aille" or " Il faut qu'il aille" are incomplete sentences in French so the examples don't make much sense, from my POV. "Il faut qu'il parte" or "Il faut qu'il s'en aille" or, even better, "Il doit partir" would work. And yes, "Il ne faut pas qu'il s'en aille" would be translated as "He mustn't go/leave". The negation is linked to the first verb - "falloir", not the second one. "It is necessary that he not go" would be translated as "Il doit rester", "Il ne faut pas qu'il parte" or "Il ne doit pas partir". "Il doit ne pas partir", which is the closest possible translation, is incorrect. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.187.97.70 (talk • contribs) .
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- Good point. Objectless "go" in English can mean either "y aller" or "partir"; I don't know which was intended here. Ruakh 15:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
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