Talk:List of victims of Nazism

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Contents 1 Votes for deletion 2 Old talk 3 In the list? 4 Rename? 5 New name 6 Sections 7 reader 8 Anne Frank's Nationality 9 Putschist = Holocaust victim? 10 Rename article People who lost their lives at the hands of the Nazis 11 Clean up 12 Name

[edit] Votes for deletion

This article was nominated for deletion recently. The result of the discussion was keep.

• For a May 2005 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of Holocaust victims (no consensus)
• 6 February 2006: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Holocaust victims (2nd nomination) (keep)

[edit] Old talk

Delete Simply too many victims to name. The dozen names currently on the page make up less than 0.000001% of the actual number of victims. Jendeyoung 02:02, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Well yeah, you got a point. What are we supposed to do with with this one? I suggest that we create an article List of Famous Holocaust victims (or simply renaming this one!). But a list of six millions victims? Is there a database out there where all the victims are registered? (accessible to the public of course) Some suggestions here? --Jambalaya 02:08, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

List of Famous Holocaust victims is an appropriate name. The current name's pool is too large for an article on Wikipedia, and I highly doubt an internet source exists with the names of millions of people. Jendeyoung 06:02, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

I did not see the VfD, but I would have voted delete if I had. Not that it probably would have mattered to make it a consensus (but clearly a majority).

However, even this very short list—absurdly short even if you mean "notable" victims—seems to contain false entries. I confess I don't know most of those named, but Walter Benjamin seems to be a non-example already (unless "victim" means, "underwent bad shit" rather than "was murdered"). Benjamin committed suicide. Yes, absolutely, he did so as a perhaps rational reaction to what was going on around him, and to his quite probable murder as a German-Jewish Marxist intellectual (not something the Nazi's liked on any count). Nontheless, in the actual fact, he was not murdered. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 02:06, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)

I agree with Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters - Walter Benjamin shouldn't be on the list. A parallel would be to to state that f.ex. Himmler was actually executed by the allies, because he probably would have been, if he had not committed suicide in advance. Which is, of course, nonsense. --Thf1977 15:02, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] In the list?

Louis Marcoussis

Maurice Halbwachs

--Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך 11:57, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rename?

Aren't survivors also victims of the Holocaust? We should rename to List of people killed in the Holocaust, otherwise the survivor's list should just be merged. Carlossuarez46 21:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

This whole article is ambiguous and is crying for some focus.

In the list, I see victims not only of the genocide that we normally refer to as the Holocaust, but I see also victims of the 1934 Röhm purge as well as the purge of opponents inside and outside the Wehrmacht after the unsuccessful July 20 plot in 1944. The 1934 and 1944 wave of killings are not generally regarded as part of the Holocaust, nor would the execution of Sophie and Hans Scholl and their White Rose counterparts be so considered.

All the victims of these killings, as well as all the untold thousands who shared the Scholls' fate of being put to death "legally", are victims of Nazi Germany. Ironically this also includes the victims of the 1934 purge who happened to be Nazis themselves.

The first question to ask about this page is

• Which victims do we intend to document here? Should victims of the Holocaust, of the Röhm purge, and of the post-July 20 sweep of opponents of the regime be listed separately? The circumstances of their victimization are different — some were punished after purportedly legal trials, some were summarily killed because they dared to stand up for their beliefs, while untold millions were simply put to death in mass numbers because they were deemed inferior.

Other questions:

• What should be the measure of hardship by which a person is considered a victim? Clearly someone killed by this regime would be a victim, but what about those tortured or imprisoned? What too of those who were merely harassed or persecuted? What about those who were never imprisoned or interrogated, but who lived in fear? Are they victims too?

• What is the metric of "fame" by which a person is famous enough to be included on this list (assuming they meet other criteria)? One simple metric might be "If they're noteworthy enough to have a Wikipedia page and if they meet the other qualifications, then include them."

Two other observations:

• Listing the victims by nationality seems a reasonable way to group them, but I'm not sure they need to be grouped by profession, as that can be somewhat arbitrary and make them a bit harder to find. Is a victim's profession significant, or is it more important to know on what basis they were killed, imprisoned, or otherwise oppressed?
• Categories might be another way to document victims of Nazism (by whatever definition people agree upon) and is probably less maintenance. There's already a category for Victims of the Night of the Long Knives, for example.

Please note that none of the above is (yet) a formal proposal. I'm merely opening up the subject for suggestion and discussion, at which point we can try to form a consensus to determine the best way to present this material. — JonRoma 17:36, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks JonRoma, I was waiting for a response for a while and you produced a well-thought out one. I think that formalizing the proposal is something you should consider; whatever formalization means. I wholeheartedly agree that the Röhm folks are not Holocaust victims by any stretch. I feel fairly confident that the July 20 plotters are not either, nor are general political opponents (white rose, pacifists, communists, even POWs qua POWs). This is inherently my POV however. I have always thought that the Holocaust was the genocidal persecutions and killings by the Nazis. I think one would have to look quite far in Holocaust literature to find references to Röhm as victim, the White Rose or Stauffenburg Circle or other resistance groups. However, groups of political opponents were put through similar and sometimes the same processes: communists, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, POWs, etc. made their way into the concentration and extermination camp system. We do have a category entitled Category:Victims of Nazi justice so maybe this needs to be categoried into Category:People killed in the Holocaust and Category:Holocaust survivors; the latter category will still be somewhat subjective: clearly Elie Wiesel qualifies, but what about Albert Einstein? I suppose that in part depends on whether one considers the Nuremburg Laws to be "part" of the Holocaust, as their passage depriving Einstein of his German citizenship made him a victim. Just a POV rambling but a formal proposal would be a welcome start to cleaning this up. Carlossuarez46 18:53, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New name

This pges really should be name List of famous Holocaust victoms, analogically to List of famous Holocaust survivors. How do we do this now, since th former page is aloready a redirect to here? Karol 09:37, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Oppose This list is (and must be) incomplete; but famous does not need stating; it's policy. Septentrionalis 19:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Oppose: as noted above, it is assumed in this kind of list that entries are notable. Jonathunder 22:06, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Kind of thought so. In that case, should List of famous Holocaust victims be renamed to List of Holocuast victims? Karol 06:41, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Oppose and move List of famous Holocaust survivors to List of Holocaust survivors. -Silence 11:35, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Not moved, and moved the other one. —Nightstallion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 15:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sections

It's really strange to have to lists in one - by nationality and by occupation, because then everyone would be listed twice. Also, probably occupation should be chosen over nationality, because these people are notable due to their occupations, not due to their nationalities. Karol 16:18, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

• This was my rationale as well. There is now only one list. — Reinyday, 00:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] reader

A cursory glance indicates that there are numerous names of persons who died either 1) beyond the reach of the Nazi holocaust apparatus (like Walther Benjamin, who died on the French-Spanish frontier in 1940), or 2) after the collapse of the Nazi regime (who can claim that Herbert Marcuse, died 1979, was a "holocaust victim"? furthermore, he is listed as a "composer", as is the physicist Max von Laue, died 1960). Why is the British formula-one racecar engineer Paul Morgan, died 2001, on this list, also as a "composer"?

This is an extremely sloppy and misinformed article and serves only to confuse and advance the cause of mistruth and deception. Delete.

No, don't delete; it's a viable article, but please help sort it out. Why not be bold and make the edits you mention above?  Regards, David Kernow 10:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anne Frank's Nationality

Anne Frank was born in Frankfurt am Main, so technically she was German, even though she lived in Holland from 1933 onwards. Shouldn't she therefore be classed as German in the list and not Dutch? --SaraFeodorovna 13:03, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Putschist = Holocaust victim?

Can people such as Canaris really be considered a Holocaust victim? He and others like him were not presecuted over their ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation or political views, but rather ended up shot or in a gas chamber because they broke serious laws. In Britain you probably would have been shot for trying to assassinate Churchill.

[edit] Rename article People who lost their lives at the hands of the Nazis

I find it offensive that Nazi military officers who were executed after a form of courtmartial are included in this "List of Holocaust victims". The Holocaust is defined in Wikipedia as follows:

the state-led systematic persecution and genocide of the Jews and other minority groups of Europe and North Africa during World War II by Nazi Germany and its collaborators.

Just because an individual was killed or murdered unjustly by the Nazis does not make the person a Holocaust victim. Reinhold Frank, for example, might have been a martyr, but his death was not part of a genocide and therefore he is not properly called a Holocaust victim.

Unless the article is drastically edited, its name needs to be changed to "List of people who lost their lives as a result of Nazism" or something similar. --Mathew5000 06:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean up

I've cleaned up this page and put the unsorted and commented out entries at List of victims of Nazism/Sort. Enjoy. — Reinyday, 00:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Wouldn't naming this 'List of victims of the Nazis' be more appropriate? After all, Nazism is a political ideology while the Nazis were a group who carried out actions. I doubt Wikipedia would allow a 'List of victims of Communism'. 75.68.6.81 00:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)