Talk:List of vegans

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This page has been cited as a source by a media organization. See the 2006 press source article for details.

The citation is in: "An ethical diet: The joy of being vegan", The Independent, March 15, 2006.

A list of famous vegans from a year 2000 Thinkquest entry. Should be proof-checked maybe, but I think it could be included in this article. Ravn 18:36, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

1 List of Vegetarians???
2 Bill Maher
3 David Lange
4 Dallas Austin
5 I deleted Andre 3000
6 Cleanup of the list of People
7 I've renamed the Singers category into Musicians
8 Musicians/Bands
9 Removal of (most) of the article
10 Sources
11 Notable
12 When is a Source Sufficient?
13 A short list

[edit] List of Vegetarians???

What happened to the page "List of Vegetarians"?

It was deleted. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of vegetarians. Iolakana|^T 18:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It is still on answers.com: http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-vegetarians Q0 08:54, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bill Maher

Bill Maher in a 2005 interview said he is not vegetarian, but ate meat rarely. He should be listed rather on the list of vegetarians as a pesco-vegetarian. Idleguyspal 05:18, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] David Lange

An anon added David Lange to this list a month or so ago, and also stated in his article that he was a vegan. I have been unable to find any confirmation of this, and a question on Talk:David Lange has gone unanswered. I have commented out the sentence in that article for the time being. If anyone here has a reference to back the claim, please note it at Talk:David Lange.-gadfium 05:36, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

That claim has been discredited. This anon has added similar claims to a number of articles, and is being reverted whenever detected.-gadfium 05:15, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I've created a section at Vandalism in progress/Long term alerts for the "Vegan vandal".-gadfium 19:10, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dallas Austin

An anon added Dallas Austin to this list a month or so ago, and also stated in his article that he was a vegan. I have been unable to find any confirmation of this, and a question on Talk:Dallas Austin has gone unanswered.

Dallas Austin is a Vegan vandal victim and is often used is people exchanges as well. For example [1] where Dallas Austin was exchanged by André 3000 who is another VVV. KittenKlub 12:23, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I deleted Andre 3000

Andre 3000 is only a dietary vegan. he wears fur and his upcoming clothing line is going to include (real) fur.

Vegan by definition does not mean you don't sell fur, re-adding Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 00:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Huh? I don't know which definition of veganism you are referring to, but the one on Wikipedia says "Veganism is a philosophy and lifestyle which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose ..."

Under the reasonable assumption that avoiding the purchase of fur (including for resale) would be possible and practical for Andre 3000, this means the deletion was entirely justified. I'm aware of the dangers of a "more vegan than thou" mindset, but consciously paying people to kill and skin mammals for clothing is one of the things that is truly incompatible with veganism. In fact, I very much doubt that Andre 3000 would call himself a vegan, much less by the same definition as the one cited in Wikipedia.

He is now listed as a vegetarian, which is accurate because vegetarianism, by definition, characterizes only a dietary life-style, by the way. Aragorn2 18:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

A vegan who wears fur is a totally poser vegan. XamiXiarus 07:14, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Putting judgements aside, I gotta go with taking Mr. 3000 off the V-list. Morganfitzp 15:50, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup of the list of People

All the entries added by the Vegan Vandal or indirectly added (because they appeared in the category as a result of the addition by our little friend) have been removed. The people list today ( 12:26, 8 January 2006 (UTC) ) consists of those people who were initially identified by others on their pages or who were verified as such. KittenKlub 12:26, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

A removal doesn't mean that the person is not a vegan, but that we need verification first. KittenKlub 12:27, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

The website http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_vegan.html - which is the reference for a number of the people on this list - quotes this article as its source for the "Additional Vegans" section. So I don't think it should be used as a reference here, because that's just going round in circles. Vclaw 00:47, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Ted Nugent is listed amongst the musicians (songstress). I went to delete him but it didn't appear on the edit page???

I reverted the Nugent addition as I considered his inclusion blatant vandalism. Maybe my revert happened while you were editing? tartaruga 19:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I've renamed the Singers category into Musicians

Because not all of them are singers. XamiXiarus 07:18, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Musicians/Bands

Seems like this could be consolidated. Listing individual band members when the whole band is cited as vegan is redundant. Morganfitzp 15:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I've removed Conor Oberst from this list since several sources now refer to him as being a "pescetarian" including the wikipedia entry on him. Keith, 7 Aug 2006

I have removed them anyway. Iolakana•T 18:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of (most) of the article

Unsuprisingly, most of the atricle is uncited. I have removed all of them, per this edit. Iolakana•T 18:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

In addition to many names being unsourced (and removed) I've removed others for varying reasons.

Many cited a list at the Vegan Society which says it is a list of "purported" vegans and that it could be wrong. That is a pretty bad source for facts.

Next is the ivu site. This can be updated by anyone via annonymous form. While some give sources, it is NOT a reliable source in and of itself. Check the source listed on the page and give it as a source.

Please specifically note that the adherents site quotes this very wikipedia article as its source. This is a circular reference, not a source (we say we got it from them, they say they got it from us...). Mdbrownmsw 16:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Please be sure the page you cite actually says the person is a vegan.

Vegan: "95% vegan" or "not completely vegan" or "mostly vegan" are not the same as "vegan" (or there would be no need for the qualifiers. Given how little meat is actually in it, a McDonald's hamburger is "mostly vegan", as are their fries. Mdbrownmsw 16:37, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Happycow also identifies its list as "unverified" from "various sources". Mdbrownmsw 16:41, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Ditto for famousveggie.com. Mdbrownmsw 16:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia pages (and pages based on them) cannot be sources for wikipedia because, um, wikipedia says so. Mdbrownmsw 16:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

imdb is also user edited and says "However keep in mind that our service is provided for the information of users only. It is not provided with the intention that users rely upon the information for any purposes." Mdbrownmsw 17:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notable

I have just removed several non-notable people. Basically, if they aren't "notable" enough for a wikipedia article, I removed them. Exception: people listed as considerably involved with notable groups, bands, etc (so the founder of a notable group is notable, but not every member of a notable group is notable). Mdbrownmsw 17:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When is a Source Sufficient?

In your edits, you removed Mutabaruka because you read the reference to indicate that he followed a vegan diet, but possibly did not follow a vegan lifestyle. This sets the bar rather high for a list of people who are vegans, (and threatens to throw the baby out with the bathwater) especially considering the fact that many people follow a vegan lifestyle precisely by following a vegan diet and not using or wearing animal products. In the original reference that was cited, Mutabaruka says, in part, "Yes [I follow a typical vegan diet]. No animal products. I don't use animal products. I don't use it. I don't wear it. I never given my children animal products." I would be hard pressed to come up with a more definitive indication of veganism in an interview (and, as I am sure you have noticed, Mutabaruka's statement is far and above most of the other evidence of veganism in other accepted sources cited here). Mutabaruka does then (in typical Rasta fashion) call into question the use of labels and seems to suggest that all true "vegetarians" are "vegans," but this does not detract from his veganism.

I have added a further cite to the Guardian where Mutabaruka is called a vegan (analogous evidence has been sufficient in most other cites in this article) in case that helps.

To be clear: I did not set the bar, wikipedia did. Mutabaruka is a living person:

"Editors must take particular care when writing biographies of living persons and/or including any material related to living persons. These require a degree of sensitivity, and which must adhere strictly to our content policies" Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons

"The article should document, in a non-partisan manner, what reliable third party sources have published about the subject and, in some circumstances, what the subject may have published about themselves."

Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons

The first source did NOT say he was a vegan, which the veganism article says is "a philosophy and lifestyle". It said he followed a typical vegan diet. My cousin follows a typical Native Hawaiian diet, but is not a Native Hawaiian. The new source calls him a vegan. I have removed the first source and left the second.

Mdbrownmsw 19:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

At the risk of beating a dead horse (which seems especially egregious in the discussion page of an article dealing with vegans), I want to emphasize two points.

1) The first source does not say Mutabaruka is a "vegan," but he himself clearly indicates that he is a vegan (much more than merely following a vegan diet) by explicitly indicating that he does not eat or use animals or animal products and that he follows a lifestyle where he does not eat or wear animals and does not allow his children to do so either. The quotation above indicates such and more context can be found at the source itself. Mutabaruka's subsequent critique of the label of "vegan" had more to do with a critique of what being a vegetarian means (to Mutabaruka, anyone who eats food that is not a vegetable (e.g., honey, milk, etc.) should not consider themselves "vegetarian) than with whether or not he was a vegan. In other words, it was a question of words (and falls within a critique of the "Queen's lyric" customary to Rasta discourse as I alluded to above) and not of category.

To be more clear (and make your analogous reasoning more precise), if your cousin followed a native Hawaiian diet AND had various other requisite traits of being a native Hawaiian (such as being born in Hawaii, etc.), THEN your cousin would be a native Hawaiian. (I think there is also something to be said (although not entirely necessary for this point) about the fact that following a native HI diet does not seem to be nearly important as to whether one is a native-HIan as following a vegan diet is to someone who is vegan).

2) The bar I was referring to was not the care and rigorousness with which all wikipedia editors should follow (especially important, as you point out, when dealing with entries concerning living persons), but rather at what point when an article identifies an individual as vegan is it sufficient so that person can be included on this list. As I mentioned above, an interview that makes it clear that the individual follows a "lifestyle that avoids using animals and animal products for food, clothing and other purposes" (from wikipedia entry on veganism) seems to pass the normal (albeit rigorous) bar for such an entry. A Guardian article that merely mentions that Mutabaruka is a vegan hardly seems to carry the same weight (which is why I chose the interview cite over the Guardian article originally).

As a compromise, I would prefer to include both cites. However, I want to respect the considerable work you have done for this article (the careful sourcing of each individual makes it unique from any similar list I have seen anywhere), so I will merely suggest that we agree to include both cites (the Guardian cite can even appear first) unless you still see some reason not to. tartaruga 21:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed that Adams has a strange relationship with cheese -- at least as far back as 1999 ("I love cheese, but I can't eat it," says Adams. "I pull it all off"). His relationship with leather is less strange -- he seems to still have leather he purchased before he became vegan or that has been passed down to him. ("No, I haven't bought anything. It's all been given to me and all that stuff is used from years ago, but I haven't gone out of my way to buy things that are leather"). But with evidence of self-categorization as a vegan (as well as a vegetarian) and with evidence that he is intending, (and trying), and (to a greater or lesser extent) succeeding to follow the lifestyle of a vegan, these facts alone would not seem to necesitate his exclusion from the category.

More recent interviews and articles refer to Adams (and he refers to himself) as vegan (here[2], here[3], here[4], and here (10/31/06 Daily Record (Glasgow, Scotland) 28).

Considering that Adams refers to himself as a vegan, is referred to as a vegan, and fits within the wikipedia definition of vegan, I am returning him to the list.

Agreed that the initial cite was old and unsourced, so I will replace with one of the ones above.

And, just to avoid confusion, my unsigned edit added him in the first place. The problem of using multiple computers to edit is the danger of not remembering where I am logged in. Apologies. tartaruga 18:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I was not arguing that Adams is not a vegan, only that the source given did not say he was a vegan. Mdbrownmsw 19:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)