Talk:List of people known as The Great

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Do Charles the Fat, Charles the Bald, Charles the Simple, and Louis the Stammerer qualify for "antonyms"? Dominus

I think that St. James the Lesser or Ivan the Terrible would be more in the direction of antonyms. GUllman

"John Paul II the Great"? "Ronald the Great"? --Quadalpha 04:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Dionysius Exiguus ("the little"), also "Dionysious the Pseudo-Areopagite"

The above is a confusion of different people named Dionysius. See

I am deleting what is incorrect.

Sebastjan

But how about king of Thailand? Bhumibol Adulyadej?

What about him? He's on the list, as he should be. Gentgeen 04:27, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Where and by whom is he known as 'the Great'? His entry doesn't mention that style. I suggest deleting this entry.

Contents

[edit] Lachit Borphukan

When this article is carrying Shivaji as a Great Maratha, then it deems fit to include another great who is much heroic than Shavaji, I want Lachit Borphukan to be included in this list.

For further reference do a web search and read about this Great who fought with the Mighty Mughal Emperor Auranzeb for 17 times, but without defeat!
None of the provided sources refer to him as, "The Great." --Onorem 11:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Abidwasim, this is not a list of great people. It's a list of people who've "the great" commonly appended to their name. utcursch | talk 12:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
You are right Utcursch. I am talking here about a Hero who is known as Great in one remote location of the world called Assam. This Great,Lachit Borphukan has fought 17 times with the huge Mughal Army, and was never defeated. But compared with Shivaji he still has more great attributes and fits the bill to list him here. Otherwise delete Shivaji from this list. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.159.142.168 (talk) 06:05, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] missing info

Vytautas the Great is definitely missing.

[edit] Sources

When was Elizabeth I of England known as Elizabeth the Great & by whom? There is no mention of this in her article & I've never heard of her as described thus. AllanHainey 10:47, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Gloriana she was, but not a Great. My professor even mentioned specifically that the only English monarch known as the Great (discounting Canute) was Alfred. Deletion in progress --RemiCogan

[edit] Indian rulers

While Karikala Chola, Rajaraja Chola I and Shivaji were indeed greatest of the Indian rulers, as per my knowledge, the suffix "the Great" is not used for them.

Google returns few results for "Karikala Chola the Great" [1] (consisting of Wikipeida mirrors). For "Rajraja Chola the Great", some more results are returned [2], but most of these are Wikipedia mirrors or "Rajraja Chola, the great...".

Again, "the Great" is not usually appended to Shivaji's name; instead "Chhatrapati" is used for respectful address. The Google results mostly consist of ": Shivaji: The Great Maratha" or "Shivaji The Great Nation Builder" [3]. There are some relevant results for "Shivaji the Great", but these mostly consist of personal homepages of Maharashtrians, rather than encyclopedic sources. utcursch | talk 13:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry

Sorry for my ignorance.I am getting smarter day by day.What I learnt today is that Shivaji is not great.Fine.Mahawiki 15:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

This is not a list of great rulers. It's a list of people who normally have the words "the Great" appended to their names. utcursch | talk 06:39, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

Alright here's the citation- [[4]] also a book, Rigveda to Raigarh making of Shivaji the great, Mumbai: Manudevi Prakashan (2005) signifies that Shivaji Maharaj was known as Shivaji the great too.Other citations to consider [[5]], this(a google cache),(html format) of syllabi of Shivaji university,[[6]],[[7]], [[8]], [[9]]. I think above citations will suffice to clear ur doubts.Thanks! Mahawiki 03:05, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I respect Shivaji Maharaj as much as you do. But, it's a fact that "Shivaji the Great" is not a commonly used term (say as commonly as "Alexander the Great" or "Akbar the Great". Please note that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and our aim is accuracy, not propaganda. When I say Shivaji is not called "Shivaji the Great", that doesn't mean I don't consider Shivaji as great. It's just a fact. There are other ways to add respect, eg. "Shivaji Maharaj" (Shivaji, the great king), "Chhatrapati Shivaji" etc. This is English edition of Wikipedia and this article is about the list of people who have "Great" appended to their names commonly.

The multiple links provided you consist of these sources:

  1. "Shivaji, the great" by Bal Krishna (Vol. i, ii, iii, iv) (first published in 1932 by D.B. Taraporevala Sons & Co.) -- Shivaji University has prescribed this book in its syllabi.
  2. Kasar, D.B., "Rigveda to Raigarh making of Shivaji the great", Mumbai: Manudevi Prakashan (2005)
  3. "Shivaji The Great" (ISBN: 8190200003) by Dr. V. D. Katamble (Publisher: Balwant Printers Pvt. Ltd.). This book is an English translation of "Shreeman Yogi" written by Ranjeet Desai in 1968.
  4. [10] is the personal homepage of a Maharashtrian, Dr. Nupam Mahajan.
  5. [11] is a site belonging to Sidz Cottage, Alibag, Maharashtra

As you can see, all the sources are by Maharashtrians (and I don't think any of them is a notable/famous author). Shivaji University is an institute in Maharashtra. Maharashtrians do have a great respect for Shivaji and therefore, some of them have use the term "Shivaji the Great" for title of their books or on their websites. But, this doesn't mean that "the Great" is commonly appended to Shivaji's name.

"Shivaji the Great" was added to this article by an anon [Special:Contibutions/210.211.136.93|210.211.136.93] [12], who again seems to be a Maharashtrian, as is evident by his/her contributions (in fact, this person went on to say that Chandragupta Maurya was of Maratha descent[13]).

Please note that appending "the Great" is a term commonly used in the West. The rulers with suffix "the Great" added to their names are usually the ones who have been extensively chronicled by Western historians/scholars. For eg. "Ashoka (or Asoka) the Great". There are many great rulers to whose name "The Great" is not appended. It doesn't mean that they are any less significant or they are being insulted.

In fact, some of the people called "the Great" are quite notorious. For eg. Saparmurat Niyazov or "Turkmenbashi the Great") is criticized by Western media as one of the world's most authoritarian and repressive dictators.

Shivaji is commonly known as "The Great Maratha" [14], so I've moved the link to "Related" section [15]. utcursch | talk 07:42, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

It is so unfortunate that despite me giving dozens of citations u r not allowing Shivaji the great tag.May I know on what basis u think that all sources are Maharashtrian?What makes them invalid?If this is so half of wikipedia articles would be blank.In fact Mr.Dionesh and mr Sarvagnya uses Kannada media every now and then.Mr Dinesh doesnt go beyond a book of Suryakanth Kamat,so isnt all the articles based are invalid.Hats off to ur partiality and hatred against Maharashtra.U have completely gave in to ur Kannada speaking disciples.I cant belive a admin can be so biased.Sorry for these comments as I hate to be a underdog of urs.

And of course not including Shivaji's name in people known as great list doesnt make him less great.He is great leader and our god and he will be.Wikipedia is a dirty place of filthy politics and biases. Mahawiki 08:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi! if you feel, I am wrong, you can revert my edits (keeping the WP:3RR in mind). Being an admin doesn't give me any rights to decide what's right and what not at Wikipedia. So, please stop calling Wikipedia "a dirty place of filty politics and biases". I am not shy of a WP:RfC. utcursch | talk 09:20, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] reply

Since ur a admin I am really looking forward about ur moves about the book 'A concise history of karnataka' by Karnataka writer SurykanthSuryanath Kamat according to him-Rashtrakutas,yadavs,Chalukyas,Vijayanagara empire was all of Kannada origin.I am really curious about what YOU do about it since u were very swift in deciding fate of my citations!According to me Suryakanth Kamat isnt a reknowed writer and strangely almost all articles of South Indian history is being written by taking help of his books.To add Deccan Herald which publishes pro-Karnataka news and which is gnerously used for citations here. Mahawiki 09:46, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, the issue here is not about Kannadiga authors being cited for Kannada related articles or Maharashtrians being cited for Marathi related articles. The issue is one of notability of the source being cited. Dr.Suryanath Kamath is a very well known historian of national and international repute. His books are available in many many major libraries and research centers all over the world. The book you are talking about has also won the Sahitya Akademi award. So, his credentials are beyond question. But most of the links you have given here belong to individuals like you and me who are maintaining their own blogs or websites. According to WP policies, sources cannot be such private blogs and websites, unless ofcourse, the blog or website belongs to a notable person. Otherwise, tomorrow both of us could open our own websites or blogs, write whatever we want and then cite it on Wikipedia. This is the point that Utcursch is trying to make. Thanks. Sarvagnya 11:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I request u to see the citations ONCE AGAIN before u comment on them.I am sure u have not looked into them.And Suryakanth Kamat being 'very well known historian of national and international repute' is your assertion,not necessarily the fact. Mahawiki 11:55, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Start citing sources in the article, please

It's good that there're citations in the discussion above, but they really must appear in the main article so readers know where you're getting your information.

On the more general issue of citing sources, EVERY entry on that list needs a citation (preferably several) following it, every last one. Yes, there're no-brainers in there, like Alexander the Great and Peter the Great, but all that means is it's going to be easier to find citations, not that you can leave them out.

I'm saying this partly as a sake for encyclopedic standards and partly because people are sneaking people on this list that don't belong. The prime examples I'm aware of (I have more knowledge of European history than other histories) are Elizabeth I of England and Emperor Wilhelm I of Germany. They're not known as 'the Great'. Reiterating a point above, that doesn't mean they weren't fantastic rulers or even better than those that were known as 'the Great'. It simply means they were never known as 'the Great'.

I've never read anything noting that Elizabeth was known as anything besides Elizabeth, Good Queen Bess, or Gloriana by her contemporaries or later; no current history source I've read has ever mentioned 'the Great'. The only sources I've read depicting her as 'the Great' are this list and the results of a BBC popularity poll on who Britons thought was the greatest English monarch ever (she won, and the title on the website was Elizabeth the Great). I'm also told that an author from the fifties tried to popularize the term 'Elizabeth the Great'. Nevertheless, this list, a poll, and one author do not constitute a general concensus among historians that she is/was known as 'the Great' popularly or among chroniclers. This isn't to say, though, that I'm right on this matter. However, if you want to return her to the list, you must provide ample evidence that there's a historical concensus that she's known as 'the Great'.

The same goes with Wilhelm I. Never saw 'William the Great' anywhere but here. He'll be removed. If you want to return him, cite your evidence.

[edit] First king to be known as "the Great"

The article states that Cyrus the Great was the first king to be known as "the Great" but Ramesses II, Yu the Great and Sargon of Akkad all pre-date him by quite a bit. Perhaps these three weren't known by such a title until later on? Also worth noting is it seems. by looking at Yu's article and the corresponding article on the Xia Dynasty that he is somewhat of a mythological figure.--Lairor 22:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The Cyrus claim is incorrect: he adapted an official title that was common in Babylonia. It is important to discern three types of "the Greats": titles (a very old Mesopotamian custom), personal surnames (like Charles the Great), and honorific names awarded retrospectively (Ramesses the Great).Jona Lendering 17:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
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