Talk:List of outsider musicians
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[edit] Brian Jonestown Massacre
I took Brian Jonestown Massacre out: they are a pretty conventional band firmly esconced in the music establishment.
BJM have attained a wider level of popularity based on the film "Dig!", but given Anton Newcombe's mental problems, and given how much of their work is extremely unconventional, and how Newcombe's work in BJM long predated any success, they do qualify as outsider music. In the mid-1990s, BJM were easily as obscure as any other artist on the list. Based on your criteria, Hasil Adkins, Tiny Tim, Wesley Willis, and others on the list who attained some level of fame should also be taken off. Should dying in obscurity be an essential element to establish whether someone is an outsider musician? PrairieDog
[edit] Who qualifies as an outsider musician?
If Joe Meek is on there, shouldn't Esquivel also be on there?
Of course if we're talking about mental problems, then quite a few people well within the mainstream of rock/pop history should be on there, e.g. Wilson, Spector, Lennon, Townshend,Cobain etc. or cult figures like Townes Van Zandt, Nick Drake, etc.
If we're just talking about mentally troubled figures, then shouldn't Michael Jackson be on there?
- Well, outsider music isn't just music written by anybody with mental problems. It's quite hard to define, really, but it's related to outsider art if that's any help. Jackson, Lennon and so on would certainly not qualify. --Camembert
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- I'm not sure why at least 1/3 of the people are on there. To use Barrett as an example, he formally studied art and music. I've always understood that a basic requirement of outsider art and music was that it was created and performed by people with no formal training. The inclusion of Brian Wilson is even more baffling. Based on how things are being defined for this list, you could include Beethoven or Stockhausen and they wouldn't be out of place. --Jason Moyer
This article on Daniel Johnson lists Brian Wilson as an outsider musician, so I have included him in the list, although certainly his work is within the mainstream of rock history and sold millions of records. [1]
I have removed scaza from the list, twice. I can find very little information about them anywhere, and no mention of them being an outsider musician. Since everything we include in the Wikipedia ought to be verifiable, could somebody please give an independent source listing scaza as an outsider musician if they want to put it back in the list. --Camembert
Er....should Beefheart really be on there? Yes, he's musically untrained, but he was able to communicate what he wanted to his musicians, his music was, however awkwardly, composed in a sense outsider music generally isn't. The way of illustrating what I mean is if you look at Beefheart's more commercial stuff: "I'm Glad" from Safe As Milk, "Bluejeans & Moonbeams" from the album of the same name, and so on. He was perfectly capable of writing "normal" songs when he wanted to. Beefheart's compositional voice wasn't a result of a mental condition, incompetence, or something he couldn't control. That was how he wanted those pieces to sound. To put it another way, Jandek couldn't record a "sell-out" album with top-40ish tunes if he tried: he just isn't built that way. Beefheart could, and did, and I think putting him on this list simply because his behaviour has been known to be eccentric and his music can be occaisionally jarring to the uninitiated listener is a mistake. I know Irwin Chusid made the same mistake on his Songs In The Key Of Z collection, but that doesn't mean we have to join him. --Chips Critic 02:34, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
- I agree with you, but it's tricky because "outsider music" is so poorly defined. For instance, I think that Tiny Tim knew what he was doing and was quite capable of being conventionally "popular", and Harry Partch, who is taken quite seriously, wrote a book explaining the theory behind his music, but they're both often put in the "outsider" class nontheless. So although I agree with you, I don't feel confident enough of the definition of "outsider music" to edit the list myself. If you or somebody else were to take him out, however, I certainly wouldn't complain. --Camembert
- OK then, I'll take him out for the moment. --Chips Critic 15:46, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
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Julian Cope's work in the 1980s and early 1990s would not be considered outsider music, but one could make a pretty good case for his work in the last several years to be considered outsider music.
Would Yoko Ono's work be considered outsider music?
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I really would hesitate putting Buckethead on this list. He has the full backing of his own record label, regularly tours with well known musicians, and has shown in interviews not taken in jest that he has no mental problems. He's eccentric in his professional life and reclusive in his private life certainly, but I can't really agree with him being labeled an outsider musician.
