Talk:List of names in English with non-intuitive pronunciations

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Should Edinburgh be on this list? In Scotland, it is pronounced "Edinburra" which is, near-enough, how it appears.

It's a question of how non-intuitive it is for "gh" to be pronounced with a schwa. I can't think of any other word where it is. And in other place names "-burgh" is pronounced "-burg", as in Pittsburgh. If Edinburgh were spelled "Edinborough" I'd stay the pronunciation is intuitive enough, but as it is I do think "Edinburra" is a non-intuitive pronunciation for the spelling "Edinburgh".
How about Helensburgh, Musselburgh, Great Ryburgh, Colinsburgh, Newburgh, Fraserburgh, Dickleburgh, Flookburgh, Roxburgh, Grundisburgh, Fleeggburgh, Blythburgh, Winchburgh, Sedburgh, Cunningsburgh, Bamburgh, Smallburgh, Salsburgh (which is interestingly cognate to Salzburg), Aldeburgh, Jedburgh, Leverburgh, and Sumburgh? All of those are pronounced with a schwa. Pittsburgh is the odd one out, as the modern spelling of all other historic -burghs in America has been changed to -burg (e.g. Williamsburg, NY). The other oddity is "burgh" as a separate word is usually pronounced "burr", as in Burgh Heath, Surrey. 82.36.26.229 04:38, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Looks like the above exchange points out a problem with calling any pronunciation non-intuitive. Perhaps this page is too (potentially) POV? - dcljr 21:58, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I don't think POV in its usual Wikipedian sense is going to be an issue here, but I agree that non-intuitive isn't the best name, as different people will have different intuitions. Maybe it should be called "List of names in English whose pronunciations are not easily deducible from their spellings"? A bit wordy, perhaps. But I think that is and should be the point of this page. Which is why Newark should not be on the list: both [nuɚk] and [nuɑrk] are easily deducible from the spelling. Likewise we shouldn't include Concord just because some towns so named are pronounced [kɑŋkɚd] and others are pronounced [kɑŋkɔrd]. I'm not thrilled about BERlin and New MADrid being on the list either. I won't delete them, but I wouldn't have added them myself. I considered and rejected adding Lima, Ohio on the grounds that it's pronounced [laɪmə] rather than [limə]. Even though people might incorrectly think that Berlin, New Madrid, and Lima are pronounced the same as the cities in Germany, Spain, and Peru, nevertheless the correct US pronunciations are in fact easily deducible from their spellings. --Angr 23:32, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think the scope of this page is too narrow -- and it was me who created it in the first place. I did so because I felt it would be good for Wikipedia to have somewhere to record all those daft "Cholmondeley"-type names, which crop up regularly in British (and no doubt most other countries') popular culture. It was always intended to be trivia -- worthwhile trivia, I hasten to add -- if that's not an oxymoron. Anyway, I agree with Angr; my original intention was to record names whose spelling bears little relation to their pronunciation, rather than merely names that are pronounced differently to another more famous version. I would therefore vote against Newark, etc.
The page should be renamed, I think. Angr, your suggestion is, as you say, wordy, but it does sum up the original intention better than the current name. I see no reason not to move it. I don't see any particular reason why it should be restricted to names either, after all "cough" doesn't have a particularly intuitive pronunciation to someone who wasn't brought up speaking English. --Lancevortex 09:42, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think the restriction to names is a good idea, for two reasons: (1) it will keep the page manageable: one we start adding "cough", "tough", "plough", and "dough", where will we stop? (2) the pronunciations of lexical words like cough etc. are found in virtually any English dictionary, while placenames and especially surnames can be much harder to find. So we put them here. --Angr 11:39, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Newark

Newark should be on this list... I'm just not sure which is the more common variant. NEW-ark (pronounced almost like one syllable: "nork") as in Newark, New Jersey, or new-ARK (pronounced almost like two separate words: new ark) as in Newark, Delaware. I don't know how it's pronounced in Ohio, California, Arkansas, New York, Illinois, Maryland, or Texas. – flamuraiTM 04:52, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think either pronunciation is sufficiently non-intuitive to be on the list. --Angr 07:08, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I would say the New Jersey city is pronounced NOO-erk. - dcljr 21:58, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Ohio's Newark is officially pronounced the same as in Newark, New Jersey. In practice, however, the name is pronounced very much with one syllable. A running joke in metropolitan Columbus (itself pronounced locally as "Klumbis") is that the name of the city is actually "Nerkahia". I've seen t-shirts that have been printed with that name, though a cursory glance at Google did not reveal any information on the t-shirt line. -- SwissCelt 19:13, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] English Names

The list should define itself more explicitly. What is an "English" placename? Is it only names of places in English-speaking countries, or does it include the common names in English of other places (e.g. Rome rather than Roma, Munich rather than München — not that either of those is non-intuitive). I ask because I was going to include Kiribati, pronounced "Kiribass". Joestynes 01:16, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It hasn't been defined yet, but de facto it does seem to be limited to placenames in English-speaking countries and personal names encountered in English-speaking countries. But I don't see why this should be so; I have no objection to the inclusion of Kiribati on the grounds that the pronunciation "kiribass" is not easily deducible from the spelling. --Angr 06:59, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Would street names be acceptable? I was thinking of Houston Street in NYC: it's How-ston, not Hue-ston. – flamuraiTM 07:11, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Again, just because Houston Street in NYC is pronounced differently from Houston, Texas doesn't mean that the pronunciation [haUst@n] is difficult to deduce from the spelling Houston. --Angr 11:39, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Okay, then you should remove Berlin, Madrid, etc. Be consistent. – flamuraiTM 20:02, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I did. And I made some other changes too. --Angr 22:20, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gaelic names

Almost any Gaelic name isn't pronounced how it's spelled. I guess this applies more to people names like Siobhan than place names, since most of the place names have been anglicized. Should these be included? They're governed by a different set of rules, so I can see why you may not want to include them. Just curious.

Also, I think Islay (EYE-luh) fits on the list, and Honiton doesn't.

– flamuraiTM 03:20, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you about Islay and Honiton, and have added the former and removed the latter. As for Siobhan (and Sean), the pronunciation is easily deduced from the spelling if you know Gaelic. (Of course the same argument could be made for Kiribati: the pronunciation is intuitive if you happen to know Gilbertese!) But both Siobhan and Sean are frequently used by people who know no Gaelic, so for them the pronunciation really isn't easily deducible. What do you think, Lancevortex? Shall we include first names on the list? --Angr 09:06, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That's what I figured. You'd be opening up a can of worms if you started to include those names since there are so many. There is one first name on the list already (Menzies), though you may consider removing that at renaming the article "List of English place names with ..." – flamuraiTM 09:25, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
Well, Menzies is also a surname; in fact I believe the first name is just a transferred use of the surname. Sean and Siobhan, on the other hand, are primarily and originally first names. But they are used by non-Gaelic speakers (I happen to know both a Sean and a Siobhan who are both from Devonshire and neither they nor their respective parents speak a word of Gaelic), so I think they qualify for the list if we want to open the list up to first names. And I can't think of a good reason not to, but I want Lancevortex's opinion first. --Angr 10:55, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I can see arguments both for and against the inclusion of Gaelic first names, which you two have already outlined. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that we should include the ones that English speakers are likely to encounter on a regular basis, such as Sean, Siobhan, Padraig (if that is indeed non-intuitive). My knowledge of Gaelic names is close to non-existent, but I seems to me that the majority of them are anglicized to the point where the average English speaker is never likely to encounter the original version. However, that's from my English perspective; an Irish person no doubt sees it differently. And who decides what counts as "regular"? I'm afraid I don't have an answer to that.
By the way, is Sean Bean, the actor who played Boromir in Lord of the Rings, pronounced "Shorn Born" or "Seen Been"? --Lancevortex 11:36, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
According to the IMDB his birth name was Shaun, so I presume he changed the spelling but not the pronunciation. There's also Sean Astin, who played Sam Gamgee in LOTR; I've always heard his name pronounced "shawn" (sorry, I'm a rhotic speaker, so "shorn" is just wrong for me!). And Sean Lennon, whose only connection with Ireland is that his father was from Liverpool. (Both of the latter seem to have been named Sean after their famous fathers named John.) I think if a Gaelic name is well established outside of Ireland and Scotland, like Sean and Siobhan, it can be included. But not names like Aoife /i:f@/ and Ruadhán /ru:A:n/, which are probably found almost exclusively in Ireland or among children whose parents were from Ireland. I don't know who gets to define "well established", but I'm going to go add Sean and Siobhan, and if other people start adding other Gaelic first names, we can ask if they consider the name to be well established outside of Ireland/Scotland. --Angr 13:27, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Totally agree with that. By the way, it is of course /ʃɔ:n bi:n/ -- please excuse my feeble attempt at phonetics-based humour! --Lancevortex 18:33, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Phonetics-based humor can be very dangerous! I've decided to add a note to the top of the page explaining what we mean by "non-intuitive pronunciations". It's easier than changing the name of the article to some wordy montrosity like the one I suggested above. --Angr 20:54, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Non-intuitive or Counter-intuitive ?

Given the vagaries of English spelling I think the qualification "non-intuitive" pronunciation is too broad. Many strings of letters have multiple plausible English pronunciations; in which case, the actual pronunciation is not intuitive. However neither is it counter-intuitive, if the actual pronunciation is among the plausible ones. E.g. in Kansas, which <s> is pronounced as /z/? In Liverpool, does "Liver" rhyme with "River" or "Diver"? Which syllable is stressed in Mississippi? None of these answers is intuitive, but none is counter-intuitive, i.e. surprising or remarkable. Of course, a more common term for "word with counterintuitive pronunciation" is "word with irregular spelling". Joestynes 04:18, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cirencester - intuitive?

Whether the usual modern pronunciation is intuitive depends on your POV. Since /stə/ not /ˌsɛstə/ is the usual pronunciation of "cester" in English place names, I'm inclined that to the initiated, an intuitive pronunciation would be /ˈsaɪrənstə/, or maybe /ˈsɪrənstə/ or /sɪˈrɛnstə/. OTOH, to the uninitiated, the way it tends to be pronounced nowadays is intuitive. -- Smjg 11:49, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Norwich

Being from the UK, I look at places like East Dulwich and Norwich and would pronounce them 'East Dull-itch' and 'Norritch'. There are probably too many of these places to list them all, but if they conform to a general rule, might it be worth mentioning them? --SimonFr 13:15, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we should add a "common forms" section - the endings "cester" and "ham" (and maybe others) would fall here too. Of course, it would accommodate examples and exceptions. -- Smjg 16:33, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Worcester

I would argue that Worcester is more accurately pronounced-out as "wuss-ter" than "wooster."

  • (The history reveals the above comment was made at 05:25, 1 Mar 2005 UTC by Dupes.)
This is why we should use only IPA rather than impressionistic spellings. "Wooster" was supposed to indicate [ˈwʊstɚ], but clearly it could be interpreted as rhyming with "rooster", i.e. *[ˈwuːstɚ] --Angr 07:34, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
So how is Wooster, Ohio pronounced? Like Worcester, Massachusetts? Or like rooster? --Macrakis 01:12, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
*[ˈwuːstɚ], i.e. rhyming with rooster. -- SwissCelt 19:17, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Southwark

How is Southwark pronounced? --Vuo 16:55, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

["sVD@k]. I'll go add it. --Angr 17:31, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merger?

What do people think about merging this with List of place names with unexpected pronunciation? I know the criteria for inclusion on the two lists is slightly different (Lima, Ohio and New Madrid, Missouri belong there but not here, for example), but there's enough potential overlap that having both lists seems a little silly to me. --Angr 11:53, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with that -- don't have a problem with keeping them separate either! --Lancevortex 14:07, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Since no one objected over the last three months, I've gone ahead and merged them. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 13:19, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alnwick

Can someone who knows how to transliterate it add Alnwick? It's pronounced "annick".

[edit] Birmingham

The pronunciation of Birmingham is not non-intuitive, and it is not "Brum" (although that is an often-used colloquial shortened form).

Brum derives from Brummagem GraemeLeggett 11:54, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Caius College

This needs explanation - Caius is a latinization of the surname of the 2nd founder of the College - John Keys. GraemeLeggett 11:55, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] r-dropping and not

Names with 'r' are transcribed as in r-dropping dialects. But many of these placenames have both forms. For example, Worcester, Massachusetts gets [ˈwʊstə], while local non-r-droppers pronounce it [ˈwʊstəR] (not sure of which r or r-colored vowel, but that's another story). I suggest we use parentheses in these cases, e.g. [ˈwʊstə(R)]. --Macrakis 01:11, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's a good idea. As for which R to use, for English [ɹ] is strictly correct, but [r] is often used in its place as being easier to type and to read. Remember to use the IPA template — {{IPA| before and }} after — so that everyone can read it regardless of what browser they use. --Angr/comhrá 05:58, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Massachusetts names to add (most also in UK)

Cambridge (came, not cam)), Salem (sale, not sal), Woburn (woo, not woe), Malden (like moll, not like mallet), Reading (red, not reed), Somerville (summer, not soe-mer), Tewksbury (like books, not like pukes), Salisbury (sollz, not salz). But typing the IPA will take a while.... --Macrakis 01:13, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure all of these are sufficiently non-intuitive. The names on this page mostly have silent letters that aren't silent in regular words (-rce- isn't usually silent in English, but it is even in rhotic pronunciations of Worcester) or letters that reflect a pronunciation they don't normally reflect (-tch- doesn't usually spell /k/ in English, but it does in Natchitoches). The only names on your list that really fit that description IMO are Tewksbury (because -ew- doesn't usually spell /ʊ/ and Salisbury (because -i- isn't usually silent between two consonants). --Angr/comhrá 05:58, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You may well be right, but off the top of my head, I can't think of other words parallel to Cambridge (cf. camber, camshaft, river Cam), Salem (cf. salad, salary, salon), and Woburn. You have a point about Malden, because there is alden/bald/scald; Somerville cf. Somerset, somersault; Reading cf. heading but not reading). Nonetheless, in all of these cases, certainly, non-locals hesitate or mispronounce them. --Macrakis 14:54, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested additions

Sorry, I can't do IPA, unless it comes in pints. I suggest

  • Boise, Idaho (pronounced something along the lines of "boysie")
  • Isleworth, Middlesex, UK (pronounced approximately 'eye-zul-worth')
  • Terpsichore - a Muse 'terpsickorie'
  • Cholmondley (British name), pronounced something like 'chumley'
  • St John (British name), pronounced something like 'sinjun'
  • Rievaulx Abbey, North Yorkshire, UK (no idea how it is pronounced)
  • Berwick, Northumbria: 'berrick'
  • Chiswick, London: 'chisick'
  • Hermione - popular from Harry Potter
  • Blenheim Palace, Oxfordshire, UK, pronounced along the lines of 'blenim'
  • Theydon Bois (Station on London Underground), pronounced 'thaydon boys'
  • Plaistow (Station on London Underground) - no idea what the usual pronunciation is.
  • Leicester, pronounced 'lester', and NOT 'lie-sester'
  • Vale of Belvoir: 'Vale of Beevor'
  • Lieutenant, pronounced 'lootenant' or 'leftenant' depending on which side of the pond you hail from.
  • Gillingham, which is pronounced 'jilling'm' in Kent and 'gilling'm' in Dorset.
  • ...and possibly Psmith ('smith'), the P.G. Wodehouse character (and perhaps Wodehouse ('woodhouse') himself

and finally, the classic:

  • "I beg your pardon, could you repeat what you just said." - pronounced 'wha?' or 'eh?'

WLD 23:07, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Cholmondley is already on the list. Some of the others aren't non-intuitive enough for the list, which is really for names with unexpectedly silent letters or letter sequences with unexpected pronunciations; it's not a list of every name whose pronunciation is sometimes difficult for some people to guess. But some on your list are definitely worthy of inclusion; I'll see if I can find them in pronunciation dictionaries and then add them. --Angr/comhrá 02:12, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
I noticed Cholmondley after I committed the edit - sorry about that. Anyway, they are just suggestions, so if any make it into the article, that's a good result - and thank-you for tidying up the comment - my formatting head was in la-la land at the time. WLD 03:31, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Trottiscliffe

Trottiscliffe (Trosley) should be on the list. 62.194.114.150 15:06, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] discussion of what belongs and what doesn't

I notice that Berlin with stress on first syllable is still there, whereas someone suggested taking it out and doesn't include Lima (as in lima bean not Lima, Peru). I think as a general rule we *should* keep such names in; possibly create a separate section for such cases, giving both the pronunciation of the well-known city and the less well-known one. whether the less well-known, typically american one follows predictable rules is immaterial: if I saw Cairo, Illinois I'd sure assume pronunciation as in Cairo, Egypt rather than "kay-roe".

In general, 'unexpectedness' rather than "intuitiveness" should be the rule. For example, Berlin with stress on the first syllable is "intuitive" according to normal English rules, but unexpected since the "unintuitive" pronounciation of Berlin, Germany is so well known. Hence, BER-lin qualifies. On the other hand, Cambridge as "came-bridge" *probably* does not qualify since this is a well-known pronunciation/household name. "Reading" rhyming with "heading" probably does qualify since no towns with this name are familiar in most parts of the U.S. and the expected pronunciation, based on the noun "reading", is wrong. 'Houston Street' in NYC should qualify since the expected pronunciation based on the well-known city Houston, TX is wrong. Salem should not qualify since [a] many if not most Americans are familiar with this city due to the "Salem witch trials", and [b] even for those who are not, there is no "expected but incorrect" pronunciation and the actual pronunciation fits within the range of normal English pronunciation.

So I'd suggest we codify as follows:

Names belong here if

[a] The expected pronunciation, due to a more well-known name or word with the same spelling, is wrong; or [b] The actual pronunciation would not be a reasonable guess by a speaker familiar with general English spelling patterns but unfamiliar with the name at hand or with similar names (e.g. names in "burgh" or "cester").

Note that there can be more than one "reasonable guess" given a particular spelling. In the case of "Salem", pronunciation both as in "salad" and as in "sale" are reasonable, so with either pronunciation, this should not be included. Pronunciation as "sa-LEMM", with stress on the second syllable, is also reasonable, and such a pronunciation would not be included, either. However, "sillem", "sullem", etc. are not reasonable guesses, and such a pronunciation *would* be included. Likewise, since Salem as pronounced in Massachusetts (i.e. as in "sale") is a well-known name, any other town also spelled Salem but with some other pronunciation *should* be listed (possibly in a separate section, if people are bothered about including these with the Cholmondeleys of the world.)

"Cambridge" is a marginal case -- it's true that long a is unexpected after two or more consonants, but note the case of "chamber", and of other words like "comb" and "climb" where "mb" causes lengthening. In this case, since "Cambridge" is a fairly well-known pronunciation to people both in the U.S. and the U.K., I would suggest not putting it in, but I could easily see going the other way.

In the case of Edinburgh, I feel strongly that this *does* belong. There is no precedent anywhere in English spelling for pronouncing "gh" next to a consonant as schwa. I, as an American, have heard of not one of the various English towns listed above with -burgh in them, and I suspect that at least 99% of Americans say "Edinburg" [and this has nothing to do with "Pittsburgh", as most Americans probably would spell it "Pittsburg" if asked]. (The other 1% are those who have had people correct them a number of times, and even those will probably say "Edin-burrow" not "Edin-burra".)

One unresolved question has to do with foreign names. The Southwest U.S., in particular, is filled with towns with Spanish names, which usually have a pronunciation somewhat similar to the original Spanish (e.g. Navajo = "NAVV-a-hoe"). Most Westerners, and many other Americans, are familiar enough with these names that they will often recognize that such a name is Spanish and try to pronounce it in a somewhat Spanish fashion -- at the very least, 'a' as in "cat" or "ah", not "bake"; 'e' as in "beta", not "beet"; 'i' as in "machine", not "mine"; 'o' as in "boat" not "cot"; 'u' as in "boot" not "but". Such a pronunciation is clear not "reasonable for an English word", but may well be expected, whereas the Anglicized pronunciation is quite unexpected. For example, when traveling to L.A. I heard someone say that the place we were going was in "Las Filas". Imagine my surprise when I saw the actual spelling "Los Feliz"! "Los Feliz" is a pretty obvious Spanish word, and an "expected" Spanish-style pronunciation of "Los Feliz" rhymes with "close police".

So do we list Spanish names in the U.S. like "Los Feliz" that have strongly Anglicized pronunciations on the grounds of unexpectedness, or list names like "Navajo" that have Spanish-style pronunciations that are "expected" but "unreasonable w.r.t. normal English pronunciation", or both, or neither? And what about a name like Vallejo, CA pronounced "vuh-LAY-hoe"? This is a bastardized half-English, half-Spanish pronunciation, but nonetheless I guessed this correctly the first time I saw it, so the pronunciation is evidently at least somewhat intuitive.

My vague instinct is to list all three just-mentioned names, since in these cases there are plenty of people who will find them nonintuitive no matter what the pronunciation. I think the main exceptions for Spanish names are [1] ones like "Las Vegas" or "Chula Vista" where the actual pronunciation is both [a] more or less faithful to the Spanish pronunciation, and [b] reasonable within the normal rules of English pronunciation; [2] ones like "Los Angeles" that are generally familiar. (Probably also [3] names that generally follow Spanish pronunciation but convert stressed open 'a' to long English "hay", cf. Grenada; possibly also names that show a similar change involving stressed open 'e', cf. Teresa; maybe, but this time with fair reservations, for stressed open 'i'.)

Maybe we should separate by country, since different sorts of non-intuitive names occur in different places (Cholmondeley et al. in Britain; weird Irish names in Ireland; Spanish names in the U.S.; the BER-lins and LIE-mas and CAY-ros are also mostly an American phenomenon.)

Benwing 1 July 2005 13:47 (UTC)

I was very surprised not to see St. John and Worcestershire on the list. But I really think this will rapidly get too long. Just ask a Michigan resident how to pronounce Saline, Mikado, Ossineke, Ocqueoc or Larned among many others. Rmhermen 18:22, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with List of place names with unpredictable pronunciation?

Are we aware that there are two of this page? The other being, of courese, List of place names with unpredictable pronunciation. Actually that one is much more precise and a bit more user friendly, though it is shorter; one might consider deleting one or the other... Horatio86 22:09, 18 August 2005

I vote to merge the pages, keeping the text of this page in its entirety as it's much more comprehensive and "professional", but renaming it to the clearer "List of place names with unpredictable pronunciation". By the way, I gave Horatio86's comment a title and moved it to the bottom of the page, as it took me a while to find it initially. --Lancevortex 08:57, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I vote to merge too. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 22:24, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Err...not all the names on the page are place names. That rules out using the above suggested title. How about "List of names with unpredictable pronunciation" ? WLD 23:21, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I think the content on that page should be merged here, and the name of this page should stay as it is. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 23:48, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree. But I don't think everything on that page and not on this one should be moved across - for example neither Ely nor Dereham (given the normal treatment of -ham in placenames in England) seems particularly non-intuitive to me.--JHJ 12:00, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I've added a few of the names on the other page to this one. I also made a few other changes, including more use of /(r)/ to allow both rhotic and non-rhotic pronunciations.--JHJ 09:09, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merger from List of place names with unpredictable pronunciation

In an attempt to try and finally dispose of this merger. Copied below are the entries from List of place names with unpredictable pronunciation that are not in this article. I don't know enough about the subject to judge whether they should be included - could people that do know, move them from there to the article. The other page has now been redrect here.

  • Baie D'Espoir (Bay dis-PAIR) /beɪ dɪ'speɹ/ (?); French for "Bay of Hope", ironically pronounced "Bay Despair"
  • Beau Bois (BO Boyz) /boʊ bɔɪz/
  • Brazils (BRAZ-'ls) /'bɹæzl̩z/ - rhymes with "dazzles"
  • Delhi (DEL-high) /'dɛlhaɪ/
  • Gaultois (GALL-tuss) /'gɑltəs/ (?)
  • Grand Bruit ("Grand Brit") /gɹænd bɹɪt/
  • Grandois (GRAND-ize) /'gɹændaɪz/ (?)
  • Great Brule (Great Broo-LEE) /gɹeɪt bɹu'li/
  • Jacques Fontaine ("Jack Fountain") /dʒæk 'faʊntən/ (?)
  • Job's Cove, /dʒoʊbz koʊv/ "Job's" rhymes with "robes"
  • Mahers (Mars) /mɑɹz/, as the planet
  • Newfoundland (Noo-fin-LAND) /nufɪn'lænd/ (?)
  • Petite Forte (PET-ee Fort) /'pɛti fɔɹt/ (?)
  • Pouch Cove ("Pooch Cove") /putʃ koʊv/
  • Quidi Vidi (Kid-ee Vid-ee) /'kɪdi vɪdi/ (?)
  • Quirpon (KAHR-puhn) /'kɑɹpən/ (?)
  • Salvage (Sal-VAYGE) /sæl'veɪdʒ/ (?)
  • Sault Ste. Marie (SOO SAINT Ma-REE) /su seɪnt mə'ɹi/
  • Topsail (TOPS-'l) /'tɑpsl̩/ (?)
  • Wareham (WARE-'m) /'weɪɹm̩/ (?)


[edit] I have two suggestions for this article but am not sure how to enter them:

Santa Fe, Tennessee, USA is pronounced santa-fee.

Favre, Brett's name is pronounced by reversing the v and r so that the sound is -arv instead of -ahvray or -ahver.


Thanks, Daniel

[edit] Removals

I deemed a few of the pronunciations not really non-intuitiv:

The argument that the more famous Cairo, or San Jose, or whatever, make the others' spelling unpredictable is a little like saying that "everyone surely is familiar with at least one of the -cesters, therefore they are regularily /-st@(r)/". For consistency, maybe the originals of cases like this ought to be added to the list... --Tropylium 19:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone already reverted your deletions, but I agree with you that the list should be weeded regularly, not to crowd gems like Ayscough and Leveson-Gower. Benwing's suggestion (see above) that most names guessed at a second attempt shouldn't be on the list is reasonable, though the second guess often is "wait, those crazy Brits/Americans don't pronounce it like X, do they?". One measure of unexpectedness is the number of times a name appears on the web followed by "pronounced X, though there should be a law against that" or similar statements.
The following are debatable:
  • Billerica ("Bill Ricker" and "doesn't rhyme with America") fits that last criterium. I've removed the schwa.
  • The American towns of Athens, Cairo, Milan and Vienna must all have inherited the English names for cities with well-known pronunciations. Though they are "second guess" towns, they have a curiosity factor, i.e. why did they get distorted? For Lima, Ohio there actually is an explanation in wikipedia. The different emphasis in Madrid, New Mexico seems more subtle. Castile, New York 'kɑstaɪl is not yet on the list, but seems equally deserving as Lima & Madrid
  • Ely is usually accompanied with its pronunciation. I suppose it begs for [i:laɪ]. This may be a deletable second-guess case.
  • San Jose [sæn ˈʤoʊz] may be intuitive if you're newborn or haven't heard the song Do You Know The Way To San Jose, but seems too funny too leave out. I find San Rafael [sæn ɹəˈfɛl] less convincing.
I've re-removed these four:
  • Corfu with the palatization may be barbarian but not unexpected
  • Minot, named after one Henry Davis Minot, seems pronounced as expected (one pronunciation of minute may throw some people off)
  • Puget Sound is probably first guessed with a hard g but can't really be called irregular. It had been suggested repeatedly here, so I'd added it as a "border case" though didn't think it passed the test myself.
  • Unadilla seems pronounced exactly as expected. Perhaps it was added because it looks Spanish.
My own suggestions for deletion:
  • Assman(n) pronounced [ɑsmɑn] is a German surname
  • The difference between the American and British Lancasters seems trivial
  • Lewes [ˈluɪs] seems like a good first or second guess (perhaps after [lu:s])
  • "Medina" The towns, rivers, and lakes in America are probably not named after the Arabian Medina. There is for example a River Medina on the Isle of Wright.
  • Skagit [ˈskædʒɪt]] seems like a good second or even first guess. Don't know how else they should have spelled it (Skajit?)
  • Slough No-one ever knows how to pronounce ough in a new word, but, in the UK slough for "a wet place" or "sadness" is pronounced the same as this town. In other words, it's probably people's first guess.

Afasmit 10:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, OK, I mostly agree. But while frex /hose/ for "Jose" can probably be considered intuitiv due to inevitable Spanish influence, I still don't think it would render /dZouz/ non-intuitiv.
"Ely" seems to suffer from the fact that close matches like "rely", "deny" or "defy" have /ai/ at the end... and since English seems to prefer <ee ea> over <e_e> for /i/, there aren't much regular <e_y> adjectiv formations. "Memy" maybe. (Analogous cases with other vowels are much more common - "tiny scaly rosy" etc.)
"Skagit" would be more regular as "skadgit". OTOH similar words have the same length flaw: "tragic magic" (tho "Fagin") so /æ/ would probably be gessed first, yes.
--Tropylium 19:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please add Lubbock, Texas

I don't know all of the IPA symbols, so I'll just write it here and hopefully someone will add it to the article. The pronunciation of the final "o" in Lubbock is naively pronounced like an "aw" sound ("Lub bock"), but it is properly pronounced as a mirror-image of the "u" at the beginning, "Lubb uck"; but it is sometimes contorted even further (by those with an especially twangy Texas accent) to an "i" sound, "Lubb ick".

Two other place names in Texas with non-intuitive pronunciations are Lamesa ("la MEE sa") and Alvarado ("al var AY do"), both of which are English corruptions of Spanish words. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.182.97.121 (talk) 05:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] How about splitting these into groups

I can see several distinct sets - even the lead text acknowledges "that are pronounced in a way not easily deducible from the spelling" vs "in a way at variance with a better known name of the same spelling" - many in the second category seem to be named after things not listed that, if less notable, would clearly be in the first category, along with "half measures" like "Illinois" (the "s" is silent, but nothing else is french-like) --Random832(tc) 21:00, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

More distinctions could be whether the difference is elided syllables (like most of the british place names here), "wrong" vowels or stress, etc. --Random832(tc) 21:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting page

I think the page is getting long enough it could stand to be split into toponyms (names of locations) and personal names. samwaltz 15:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

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