Talk:List of micronations

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Votes for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 080806. The result of the discussion was speedy keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

Old discussion moved to Talk:List_of_micronations/Archive1

Contents

[edit] Rose Island

Discussion moved from User_talk:Samboy

  • I noticed that you removed Rose Island from the List of micronations on the grounds of it not having an independently verifiable historical reference (eg. external link). With one search on Google under the name given in the article as the island's official name, i.e. Insulo de la Rozoj, I found the following sites: [1] [2] [3] [4]. I would venture to say that these show that the micronation did indeed interact with a government (namely, Italy's). Might I suggest that you put up a request for information on a topic's talk page if you cannot find it yourself, rather than to delink an article from other pages without need? Kwekubo
Can I move this to the page Talk:List_of_micronations since this belongs there, not on my user talk page. This way, maybe someone will add the links to Rose Island. Samboy 07:33, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have no objections with you moving the post. Furthermore, I will add the link to Rose Island now. --Gabriel Beecham/Kwekubo 22:13, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Why is Moronia not on this list?

Why should it be on this list? --Gene_poole 10:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expanding this page's definitions etc

I'm going to recast this page in an attempt to improve both it and the Micronation article. That article should contain general information and notable examples (including, arguably, any micronation which is real enough to be on this list right now). This list can more exhaustively include less notable micronations. Georgewilliamherbert 04:35, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 2007 notability thread

well what would define a micronation to allow it on the list? and what would a micronation need to be allowed to stay in wikipedia? becuase someone deleted my freinds article on his micronation, becuase it was "nonsense" (unsigned comment from DB Explorer42 at 22:42, 9 February 2007)

The information you wish to add must have been covered by reliable sources that are verifiable in order to demonstrate notability. Read those three links, plus WP:AUTO for good measure, and you'll be set. PubliusFL 22:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

well what about micronations that are not noted in outside sources? DB_Explorer42

Then they're simply not suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. Again, read WP:RS. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. You might want to look into a special-interest wiki like MicroWiki. PubliusFL 23:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Those don't meet Wikipedia's basic notability and reliable sources guidelines ( WP:V, WP:CITE, WP:NOT ). Wikipedia is not the location to put every trivial bit of information in the world. Something has to measurably have been real. Georgewilliamherbert 23:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Does micronation.net count as a outside source? --Dragontrapper 23:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately not. There are stricter standards for web content than for print media to start with, and micronation.net has an open submission website where you can just type info into a web form and have it appear in their database. With that, there's no fact-checking or anything going on about the data. It has to be reliable to count for Wikipedia. Georgewilliamherbert 03:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Open Message

If you know nothing about the micronational community, leave this page alone. I am tired of people deleting things they don't reconize. Bug off!

{above was entered by [User:Kilroy Collins])
Kilroy, you should sign your entries. It makes it easier to talk to you.
I don't want to get embroiled in a fight over Middle Korea, but I do think that you need to justify and supply references for arguing that it's a notable micronation and has a physical real world presence and belongs in the "old list" in the List of Micronations.
The new list / table is going to be inclusive of internet-only Micronations. I just need some more info on Middle Korea to put it in (and will be putting in just about everyone else over the course of this week). References? Georgewilliamherbert 20:29, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


Is it acceptable to put a Micronation one is involved with on this page? Bo 15:48, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Sure, though keep in mind that the level of notability and credibility will be reviewed by others. I am widely aware of there being dozens and dozens of micronations which I haven't had time to put in the table yet; people are welcome to do so, if they follow the format properly etc. Speaking parenthetically, nobody owns or controls the page, but I am going to keep editing it to add stuff and make sure others additions are appropriate and consistent etc. Georgewilliamherbert 21:02, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Ok, just saw your entry on British West Florida. I don't see the link to a main wikipedia page for it working; adding it to the list here doesn't create a main entry. You have to do that separately. Also, I am going to edit out the Historical Anomaly and Aspirant notes for now, as your main website does not support those labels compared to other micronations. However, please feel free to add a main Wikipedia article with more information and provide information to support those status claims. Georgewilliamherbert 21:25, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


OK, I've started the main page. This new page is my first from scratch page try, so pointers please! Thanks! --Bo 05:00, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Exclusive or inclusive list

Hey Gene. Actually, part of the point of the new list in List of micronations was to create an inclusive list which could include all the marginal or internet-only players, while marking the real-world one simultaneously (see the tags...). This would relieve pressure from them all poking into the main Micronations article, where the non-notable ones don't belong. I am going to partially revert your last back to make the list header more inclusive. I would not object, if you are so inclined, if you want to do something like swap the order of the old (exclusive to historically verifyable credible) list (now on the bottom) with the new list (now on top). Georgewilliamherbert 07:11, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I support the idea of creating a comprehensive list that attempts to include all internet-based simulation-based micronations. While a handful of these are notable, and while I don't think that comprehensivity is a bad idea, the problem here is that we will end up with entries that simply can't be verified, because many such micronations have no more tangible an existence than a few web pages lasting a couple of months. We also have no way of knowing if an entry has been added by some 12 year-old kid solely for the thrill of inclusion in Wikipedia's list. Furthermore, such a list will become a guarnteed source of endless content disputes if descriptions of these entities are included. --Gene_poole 03:24, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Here's my reasoning... there is no way to on first pass convince Joe Micronation that he's not notable. Right now, they try and insert themselves into the main Micronations article. In the future, hopefully, they'll insert themselves here, and all we have to do is remove tags if they tag themselves inappropriately.
We can review additions that aren't notable and scrub the list every now and then. It's probably easier to do that than to try and keep up a running fight in the main article. This may not be the best possible option, but I submit that it's better than what we're doing now... Georgewilliamherbert 20:47, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
OK. Well I guess it can't do too much harm to see hw it works out. I just don't want to have to spend hours cleaning out a list with 10,000 names on it too often... --Gene_poole 23:36, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
There is quite many ways to see if a micronation is notable. Many online micronations nowadays tend to use forums. The Micronational Cartography Society, an organization dedicated to simulationist micronations, requires the existance of active forums in order to become a member. That's different from simply creating a webpage. A good way to see if a micronation is not dead is the micronational community itself, which tends to keep tabs on which micronations are active or not. Sorry for bunching in, but just letting you know that is still quite different from simple webpages. It is possible to note how active some micronations are. - Bill3000 05:29, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
And in which country is the "Micronational Cartographic Society" registered? Who are its members? What annual dues do they pay? Where are its meetings conducted? Where can the minutes of those meetings be examined? If, as I suspect, the "society" is merely yet another glorified web page with anonymous "members" who don't actually do anything in the real world, it is really not relevant to this discussion at all. --Gene_poole 10:52, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Wait, how is that line of questioning relevant? Why is it relevant for an online organization dealing purely with online phenomena to register in the real world? We're talking about online micronationalism here - the society is voluntary. As well, define "anonymous." If you mean something to the extent that the members do not give their real identities, then no, the members are not anonymous. As well, as of the second quarter of 2005, the MCS and its maps were copyrighted under US international copyright law, which was filed in the state of Massachusetts and registered with the federal government. It is quite relevant to this discussion list of onlnie micronations, becauese we are talking about an inclusive list of online micronations which are active. You want to know how a micronation can be verified, and I am telling you a possible way about how it can be verified, through the micronational community itself, and giving an example. Online micronations by definition are online - not all micronations care about tangible things such as stamps or real currency when they can do more productive things with their time, but that does not mean that they are inferior to other micronations. I'd also prefer you to not insult micronationalism with your generalizations as well. How can you consider yourself an inclusionist if you call online micronations which do not care about tangible things worthlesss at the drop of a pin? - Bill3000 21:25, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I am going to posit for the record that I believe that you and Gene balance each other out position-wise, and that a tolerable medium of how I'm proposing to do it should be a reasonable consensus. Bill3000 is a Micronation proponent; Gene's a skeptical skeptic, and I think I'm a moderate skeptic. Georgewilliamherbert 21:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Everyone needs to simmer down, take a deep breath and try to keep in mind that as an encyclopedia Wikipedia can only document things that are verifiably real. A micronation or "society" for which no independent corroborating evidence exists outside its own website is not verifiably real. --Gene_poole 00:59, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Allright, question, Gene - would you find the O RLY? phenomena verifiably real? If not, then you are wrong that it is a requirement, considering the fact that its article passed an AFD quite easily. If so, then please explain how it has "independent corroborating evidence", considering the fact that all the links I see there are websites related to the meme. - Bill3000 11:59, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

The website for the MCS is http://www.micromaps.org/ Jackiespeel 16:12, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] LOL anon

Lolanon
An internet-based nation, with territory in Eastern England, which includes the village of Silk Willoughby, which was "invaded" in April 2006, sections of the village of Heckington and the town of Sleaford.

New addition to the table, unsorted and broken link, maybe departement of fun stuff (?) -- Omniplex 17:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

...at the very least there should be a link to the actual micronation. - Bill3000 18:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there is now an external link to the the provisional Lolanon homepage. Soon we will have http://www.lolanon.co.uk as a website-which proves we are serious.

http://www.lolanon.co.uk is a broken URL. Nothing to see here people. Move along please! --Centauri 02:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I emphasise SOON, so well done for pointing that out. Our provisonal website and please note the word PROVISIONAL is currently http://www.freewebs.com/rogerrogerroger/lolanon.htm so go there and not http://www.lolanon.co.uk as we are currently setting that up.

There was a recent comment from the editorial team that Lolanon is merely a website in development-this couldn't be further from the truth and I understand that they got this idea from this discussion page. I would therefore like to clarify that previous talk over a website was about the Lolanon nation official website, not merely about a website called Lolanon. Finally, Lolanon is not spelt LOL anon!!!!--Greenunity 11:08, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Please let Centauri decide when and what he changes in his comment, like you can decide what you do with your comments. Maybe use <s>strike</s> to fix your own old comments when it's too late to delete them, because you got already an answer. I've picked LOL anon as title for a reason, you're of course free to disagree, but it's a part of my original comment that wouldn't make sense without it, so please stay away from it. I've fixed the talk page wrt Centauri's comment.
If lolAnon has all it needs to be listed in the article, both online and offline sources, ideally an entry in Micronation and/or its own Wikipedia article, like the other listed micronations, there would be a base to list it. I second these comments in the article:
  • <!-- Micronations not clearly agreed and listed in Micronation page as having Aspirant, Historical anomaly, or New country project with new created territory should not be tagged as such. THIS LIST SUMMARIZES AND REFLECTS Micronation. New additions almost certainly should not use any of the tags. -->
  • Many micronations exist only as creations in press releases or other media reports, and/or as Internet projects.
  • <!-- This list is not intended as a record of these latter types. -->
Besides it's beyond me why you tried to insert it somewhere instead of lexicographically above Lovely - a candidate for removal from the list as far as I'm concerned. -- Omniplex 14:32, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

This subject's article has been deleted, due to the fact that the leader of the "micronation" (not me) deems the article in accurate. Plus its nn. -- Zanimum 14:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, you deleted it seconds before I could submit {{subst:afd1}} with reason "nonsense, no notability, or vanity". -- Omniplex 14:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lagoan Isles

Grand Duchy of The Lagoan Isles Aspirant Micronation in Portsmouth, U.K., consisting of 4 small islands, that according to the countries founder, isn't included in the deeds of Portsmouth City Council.

Broken link at the moment. -- Omniplex 19:03, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

According to this it's a website run by a teenager that hasn't been updated since last December. --Centauri 03:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I've removed another new entry with broken link. It's not that Robland and Lovely are better, notable, or in any remote sense encyclopedic, but at least their links work. -- Omniplex 22:05, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Hints for those wishing to add entries to this page

Quating Georgewilliamherbert : "Keep in mind that the level of notability and credibility will be reviewed by others. I am widely aware of there being dozens and dozens of micronations which I haven't had time to put in the table yet; people are welcome to do so, if they follow the format properly etc" End Quote

Follow the rules, and be prepared to defend your entry. Bo 15:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category

Unless anyone has any particular objections I propose to remove the "type" column from the table. The whole subject of determing what is an "historical anomaly" versus a "new country project" vs an "aspirant state" etc etc is just way too subjective and controversial to remain in a list like this. Better to just list the micronation's name and give a 2-line summary and let readers judge for themselves. --Gene_poole 04:04, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Satirocity

Someone deleted the part on Satirocity. Sure it is minor, but i thouht that this was a listing of all micronations, not just important ones. Please Explain. 00:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not a list of all micronations, as it says in the introductory statement: The following is intended as a comprehensive list of micronations that are documented in both online and offline third-party sources as having some form of interaction with the real world, or which have had some manner of impact on real world events. Note particularly the section I've bolded, as it seems to have most relevance to your question. --Centauri 02:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
It does, its just not well known. Aint 21:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Then please cite your sources. --Centauri 22:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please read the article before adding content

"The following is intended as a comprehensive list of micronations that are documented in both online and offline third-party sources as having some form of interaction with the real world, or which have had some manner of impact on real world events."

Please don't add micronations here that even Google has never heard of. If it can't be verified it doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist it can't go in Wikipedia. --Centauri 22:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

where do we list any micronation then?--Dragontrapper 23:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Like I said before, try another site, like MicroWiki. PubliusFL 23:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Melchizedek

And Melchizedek is excluded because? Whatsupdoc 22:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I think we should add it again. --AndyVolykhov 18:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kingdom of Humanity + Morac Songhrati Meads

AS far as I'm aware these micronations only ever existed as philatelic fantasies. I'm going to rewrite the entries accordingly. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary please post it. --Gene_poole 01:03, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TTF-Bucksfan

I don't know who or what the "fonder of the Cesidian root" is supposed to be, but it doesn't belong here. The only references I can find to "TTF-Bucksfan" are to a series of rants that all seem to be written by one person. --Centauri 00:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Hoo boy! Don't get me started on this one! Bucksfan is a 1-man internet fantasy micronation invented by an Italian-American named Cesidio Tallini. It consists of dozens of interlinked webpages of dense, incomprehensible prose dealing with Tallini's monomaniacal interest in such subjects as astrology, religion, indigo children, alternative calendar systems, the Italian royal family, former porn stars, a nonsense concept called the "Fifth World" and his hatred of the United Nations. Needless to say, it'salmost all original research, and virtually none of it is verifiable in any reliable independent source.
Tallini is widely known in both the hobbyist micronation community and on Wikipedia as - and there's no polite way to put this - a complete raving lunatic. Among other things he's on record as declaring himself to be a genius, a high priest, a university dean and a god (!) When challenged he usually resorts to abuse; that was one of the reasons his Wikipedia account, IndigoGenius was blocked. This parting shot is fairly typical of his contributions to Wikipedia.
It is my understanding that Tallini has been legitimately associated with the creation of an alternative Internet root, and this may have some minor notability - not being familiar with such obscure technical matters I can't say for sure - however Wikipedia should most certainly not be encouraging or promoting his various other delusions. --Gene_poole 03:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't know where you are coming from when when he is calling himself a god (messenger from god, maybe) and, looking at this page on MicroWiki it seems that TTF-Bucksfan is certainly not an internet fantasy. Gene, I think you need to see the micronational world outside your so-called Empire of Atlantium. HappyUser 15:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Tallini calls himself a god frequently. The last time he left Wikipedia he threatened to return to punish everyone who disagreed with him on Judgement Day. The microwiki article is mostly incomprehensible. I've read it 3 times already, and I'm still not sure what it's supposed to be about. Looks like more of Tallini's stream-of-consciousness outsider art ranting. Apart from that none of the references quoted are credible. If you can't cite sources, you can't put it in Wikipedia. --Gene_poole 03:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Republic of Molossia

Why is there nothing on Molossia, Gotzborg, Hanover, Norona, Landingberg or Babbaka?? When ever some one posts something you get rid of it i dont understand those abover are some of the most know micronations. i have heard more about Molossia than Alantuim. Signed Justin. Anonymous post by User:JustinEmperorNorona

In my opinion Molossia should be added, as it conforms with the inclusion criteria for this list. The rest seem to be either non-existent or are of negligible significe, and so don't conform with those criteria. --Gene_poole 03:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
http://www.google.com/search?q=Kingdom+of+Hanover
http://www.google.com/search?q=Kingdom+of+Gotzborg Anonymous post by User:JustinEmperorNorona
What's your point? Please read the inclusion criteria for this list. If you think a micronation complies with the criteria, add it to the list. If not, don't add it. Quite a simple concept really. --Gene_poole 05:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I messed up there above. Anyways Gene_Poole how much do you know about Micronations? just wondering are you a Leader of one? Ok i was just saying these are some of the Most famous micronations. Anonymous post by User:JustinEmperorNorona

I've been actively studying micronations for over 25 years, so I think it's fairly safe to say I know more about them than most people. No idea what you mean by "most famous". If nobody has ever heard of them, and they're not documented anywhere, "famous" is something they most certainly are not. --Gene_poole 00:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Gene, I am very sorry i sounded rude i was asking how much you know because i am impresed Haha....and they are famous in a sense they have been in a few American and British Newspapers, Norona will be in the Detroit Freepress on september. --User:JustinEmperorNorona

So have these news articles been published yet? If so, can we see the links? --Gene_poole 23:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talossa.

What about the inclusion in this list of both the Republic and Kingdom of Talossa, the perpetrators of the Talossa founded in 1979 and still in existance after 26 years? ALthough, it has been one of the first "model nations" featured for exemple in Weird Magazine. Elistir


I think Talossa should definitely be included. I'm not too familiar with the whole kingdom vs republic thing, but Robert Madison is generally acknowledged as the founder of the online micronation phenomenon, and some say he even coined the word "micronation". --Gene_poole 23:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes he did, even if later he prefered the word "nationette". However Ben is also a moody person, during his 25 years of "reign" he always acted as Talossa was an his own personal proprety. Talossa in 2004 and in 2005 has "kindly" driven him out, to be able to standing alone and living i a truly democratic way. Ben is no longer a citizen of Talossa. Nowadays Talossa is split in two States (Republic and Kingdom), but they both have the same heritage and culture and cooperate on cultural and inguistic issues. As we say: we are 2 States but 1 Nations. The cause of the split was Ben who in 2004 was trying (for the third time) to driving out people that he didn't like. As some citizens were defending him, half of the nations split and create the REpublic. Anyway one year later he was driven out from the Kingdom too. However in a nearer uture Kingdom and Republic will found again in a unique Talossa.
As for the moment they are both the "notable Talossa", I believe the fariest solution is to include in every micronations relaed page only Talossa and infromation about it (and the fact that it was the first, etc etc ) and put in the links for both the Republic and the Kingdom. --Elistir 19:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I've added a link to Talossa. I see no particular need for 2 articles. The minutiae of Talossa's internal policics is not really something we need to concern ourselves with here. Providing a general history is. --Gene_poole 22:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you that are not needed two pages (and In fact I haven't created pages on R and K). I see your point, but the informations provided are not correct. R and K are not opposite factions and Ben has not abandoned the project because of the existance of these two factions. I'll update it with few words- Say what you think about this.
A micronation founded as a bedroom kingdom in 1979 by Wisonsin resident Robert Ben
Madison. Madison claims to have coined the term "micronation". Because of divergences with the
founder, who was forced to leave, the group split into two factions "Kingdom" and "Republic"
that have friendly relatonships.
Elistir 07:18, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Acadame North

Shouldnt the Socialist Federal Republic of Acadame North be on this list it is documented in both online and offline third-party sources as having some form of interaction with the real world, or which have had some manner of impact on real world events Slovenskidom 23:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

And where might we find this documentation? --Centauri 07:12, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Well there is
United Micronations
Aerican empire
Union of North American Micronations
micronations artical
There is lots more
Wikipedia considers these types of sites to be primary references. Unless their claims are backed up by reliable independent offline sources, such as major newspapers and published books - preferably including photographs - they're basically meaningless. Apart from that, the links you provided don't show any evidence that anything described has occurred in the real world. --Centauri 01:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Good point, thanks for the further note I will look for more.
Acadame North is included on the Micronations.net directory [5]

Sloveniaiscool 21:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

So what's your point? --Gene_poole 00:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
My point is mister sock puppet, that the nation is indeed included in a well recognized website on a Micronations list so it should be added to the Wikipedia list. Sloveniaiscool 21:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

That website cannot be a reliable source; There are "Add an entry" and "Edit an entry" anonymous functions on the page, so the information there cannot be considered authoritative or confirmed in any reliable way. Georgewilliamherbert 23:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, Micronations Wiki used to have a differant list but all you had to do is sugest it to the Administrator and he would add it as it says on the site. There are few, if any reliable and Active micronations lists out there, do you have any suggestions where I could find one?Sloveniaiscool 20:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Websites aren't good references. There are some books out there on the topic, and magazine articles. Those are generally considered reliable references. That's what we're looking for when people say that a Micronation is verifyably real... something in the real world which says they really are there, doing something, which other people have noticed. Georgewilliamherbert 07:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Exactly. References have to be reliable and reputable. --Gene_poole 10:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks captain obvious. Sloveniaiscool 20:34, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Its also in the DMOZ a well known and reliable source DMOZ list

Sorry to disappoint you, but the act of submitting a website to a search engine does not constitute a "reliable source". You still don't seem to have read or understood Wikipedia's policy on this subject - which seems rather odd, seeing as you've been posting comments about it for months. --Gene_poole 03:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
oh am I an editor at the DMOZ, and false website creator I am sorry but your accusations go now where and are quite pointless. DMOZ is not a 'search engine' nor is it any sort of unreliable source, but of course you ego tells you that you are not wrong. Wikipedia policy says nothing about a DIRECTORY which is what it is. Sloveniaiscool 21:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Any open source information source is not a reliable source; this even includes wikipedia (you can't cite wikipedia to use on wikipedia; you need to cite to original source). DMOZ is open source. DMOZ is not reliable. —ScouterSig 21:58, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
So ive heard, except the DMOZ is not an open source, only DMOZ editors can first review requested content and add it. Sloveniaiscool 22:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
So in summary, months after starting this whining, pointless, circular discussion, you still can't produce even ONE reliable reference source. When are you going to grow up and stop wasting our time? --Gene_poole 01:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Quite obviously, you are the one that needs to grow up. Your pointless contemplation does not get the subject any further; reliable references will be available in the future. The SFRAN was on the CBC quite some time ago; accept there is a rather large fee to get the past stories. I have no time for pompous fools. It’s very obvious here who is doing the whining, it’s the one who doesn’t want the article to be written. Sloveniaiscool 21:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

You can keep trolling for as long as you like, but your micronation is not going to be listed here or anywhere else in Wikipedia unless your produce some reliable sources, in accordance with Wikipedia's policies on the subject. --Gene_poole 02:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Following my talk contributions does not in any way prove that I have been trolling, I will admit to doing so on the Atlantium Atricle but none other. Secondly continually calling Acadame North My micronation does not go anywhere, Acadame North deeply interests me because of its organizational structure and it’s a Yugoslav Micronation. If I was interested in sealand would that mean I am behind Sealand? Sloveniaiscool 21:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Holy Empire of Reunion

I'm not sure that Reunion really complies with the criteria for inclusion on this list. I know it's been mentioned in the press in general articles about micronations, but has it actually done anything outside the online world? The website looks like it is mostly illustrated by stock or doctored photographs from travel sites, and doesn't look like it's been updated in years. I also cant see any record of any activities in the real world. --Gene_poole 02:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tiny Micronations

I think at wikipedia we should create a page for small less notable micronations —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thatindigokid (talk • contribs) 23:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

There's nothing to stop you creating such a page yourself. Just be aware that if you do it needs to comply with WP:V and all the other usual WP policies. If it doesn't it will probably be deleted. --Gene_poole 01:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


A useful reference for the above - is the "Footnotes to History" page at http://www.buckyogi.com/footnotes/


Jackiespeel 16:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Who or what defines which micronation is "small" and "less notable" and which is "big" and "more notable"? You? Me? Or someone else on this talkpage? --Kollynn

[edit] Letter from the creator of Alphistia

"I've never been very fond of Wikipedia. As a librarian, I've had plenty of experience with good sources/bad sources both in book and online forms. Wikipedia is useful as a finding tool. And that's just about it. In other words, look to Wikipedia as a starting point for finding other information, particularly useful are links (if any) and hyperlinked footnotes. It's not reliable for facts.

When I want to find an answer (at work) or learn something(playing on the web, reading, travelling), I usually fall back on a model taught to me in library school. What we come across outside ourselves is information/knowledge/wisdom. We're bombarded with information (and non-information, think advertising for example) Most of Wikipedia, and I guess all of what you come across in a google search -- is information. If you're lucky, you might learn something by looking at links in a lot of places and using your critical thinking skills. Ah, critical thinking skills...something generally not taught in schools anymore, at least not in the USA. That's a handicap for many. Anywho - learn, and information can become knowledge.

Knowledge is useful and is what makes the world so nice to experience. (ignorance is what makes life so rotten). Now and again...certainly not very often...knowledge can lead to wisdom. A spark inspires you to create, or to act, or to understand. You want to share and teach others, and sometimes you can make a little money off it. It's rare, but like love, it's nice (the wisdom part, not the moolah).

Wikipedia is a strange intersection of anarchy and authoritarianism. Anyone can put up information. That's the anarchy. Then the worst aspects of human nature kick in. Bullies, know-it-alls, tyrants edit and delete at will. They gang up, they start flame wars, threaten, purge, ban. Often they're anonymous, sometimes they identify who they are, or who they say they are. You never really can be quite sure of their credentials, their expertise, their knowledge. It's Sartre's comment "Hell is other people" made real in cyberspace. From what I see in the discussions, there's precious little wisdom.

Of course, this is personal. Alphistia was listed on the micronations entry of Wikipedia for several months. Just a short mention in the overall article, but with a link. This more or less is what I’d expect Wikipedia to be useful for – a way to find out more information. And it worked – hits to my website were moderately high.

Suddenly, Alphistia was removed. My suspicion is that the self-appointed administrator for the micronations entry or one of his disciples (amusingly called “sock puppets”) yanked it. He runs his own micronation down in Australia, and it’s no surprise that his own invention and those of his countrymen get more mentions than any other micronations. Far more ominous is the obsessive-compulsive nature of his editing, his quarrels in the discussions, and the authoritarian personality that pops up over and over again.

All is political in this world, so why would Wikipedia be any different? If I were interested in being a wikipedian (I'm not) I'd go right in with my sock-puppets and delete all references to his made-up country, over and over and over again.

But I won't. I don't really care. Alphistia will survive the pettiness of wikipedian potentates."


-- by Alphistia —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kollynn (talk • contribs) 22:09, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

An interesting read: http://www.wikitruth.info/index.php?title=Notability Kollynn


We actually have a policy on this: Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not for things made up in school one day. Georgewilliamherbert 22:31, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, who or what defines which micronation was made up in school one day? You? As far as I know, this Alphistia project had been worked upon for decades, and continues to develop. If any of you control freaks had bothered to do some little research about the matter, you'd have realised that this is quite a unique project worth being put in a list like this. Or maybe just on the contrary - such things make you jealous, so you label them as unworthy and permanently remove them from here. Well it seems there's nothing that can be done about this anyway. Some people never change, do they.

Kollynn

What a strange little rant. I don't suppose you have any actual evidence to support your various pronouncements above concerning my alleged bias against your pet project, do you? No? I didn't think so. Maybe you need to face the fact that your micronation has never been documented in any reliable independent source, and therefore doesn't come within 100 miles of meeting the bare minimum standard that Wikipedia applies to the verifiability of the subjects it documents. --Gene_poole 05:34, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Kollynn, Wikipedia places a high value on verifiable reliable sources (WP:RS). If you don't have any for your micronation, it's not notable by normal Wikipedia standards. Do you have press coverage, books, real-world items proving it's been an active, well known project? If such do exist, they are not showing up in reviews of the usual Micronation source material or google, which makes your micronation pretty much by definition less notable than the ones in the table now. If you do have such evidence, that for some reason just didn't show up on our searches, then please post it. You should have started with that, by Wikipedia guidelines. However, late is better than never. So, please post what the media coverage, book coverage, etc. has been for Alphistia.
I specifically said "made up in school in one day" because your webpage indicated that. You can't complain if I read your material as accurate. Georgewilliamherbert 09:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


1. Gene_poole, it is not MY pet project - as stated clearly more than once above. That's one more proof you don't read thoroughly what people write - and similarly, you don't check thoroughly things which you delete. Thus, I'm not convinced you can give any actual evidence there's an explainable reason for deleting it. The quote I provided in the initial letter here is a quote from the creator of this project. He said his opinion about you clearly. Not that he cares about any Wiki trolls, Mr know-it-alls and control freaks. The fact that he doesn't even bother wasting his nerves on this discussion here is eloquent enough. But I do care when I see injustice. Not that my "little rant" would change anything. But am I someone who remains silence? I could at least make my "various pronouncements" when I saw injustice. Wikipedia at least allows this, doesn't it? As for the proofs, links and evidence you requested, I shall commit my efforts to collecting them with the guidance from the original creator of the Alphistia project, and present them to you here. After that, it is up to you, to show whether justice really exists in Wikipedia or it is really subject to control by self-authorised junkies as my impression has always told me.

2. I understand the rules of Wikipedia and its standards for verifiability. But I can name you at least a dozen Wiki entries which don't have verifiable source either, save some crafted websites linked to them (that's not a reliable source, anyone can put up a website about anything) - and they still remain. Moreover, I cannot see how you made the conclusion that Alphistia was "made up in school in one day" by reading "my webpage". And, aren't most other invented utopian micronations created in exactly the same circumstances? Isn't this exactly what it's all about? It's not about existing micronations.

3. "Wikipedia places a high value on verifiable reliable sources" - that's pretty ridiculous, as far as anyone's invented micronation is concerned. Invented projects like this do not exist - that's the main idea of utopia. What a material proof do you require? This project has been around the place for many years, and has been presented in internet space for quite a long time - and in more than one place (it has its own website, its own LiveJournal blog and a network of fans and devotees who have developed a community and have even started learning the invented language of the micronation in question) - but all this remained out of your sight as you were deleting it at random, without even checking anything about it. My only conclusion: it made you jealous, and abusing the powers that Wikipedia gives you, you did not hesitate for a minute to do what you've always done (yes, I've been following your epics over here for some time).

4. "Do you have press coverage, books, real-world items proving it's been an active, well known project?" - if you had made the smallest of researches, you'd have found out that this project has participated on a number of exhibitions (the latest one, in Germany) and has picked up some awards among other such invented micronation projects. As for real-world items, the only ones for now are postal stamps issued in recent years - that's something I doubt most of the projects on this list can pride of.

In conclusion, I think this discussion remains pointless until the moment when I provide the above "proofs and evidence" requested. Then, I'll be looking forward to your response.

As for the statement about Wikipedia pronounced in the above Letter, I believe things will change some day here too, though this looks rather unlikely at present. One day, guys like you will be stripped off their undeserved powers. Because the idea behind Wikipedia is too utopian itself - complete freedom brings anarchy. But I admire its democratic principle - everyone has equal rights to express their opinions without being deleted or edited by someone else to whom they don't sound suitable. As for the Truth, the Facts (what is "notable" enough), the Truth is only what the more powerful present it to be.

Kollynn


Wikipedia places a high value on verifiable reliable sources -- I think you do not have the right to speak from the name of Wikipedia. The standards and requirements that you listed are set by yourself, not Wikipedia. Especially in the case of invented micro nations like your own. I think it is a conflict of interests that we are witnessing here. Draioicht


The required links:

The links providing "evidence" for Alphistia's wide perception in internet space are listed in the 3rd part of this blog entry, which in itself is a discussion of this case of so-called Wikipurge:

[6]

I hope this is sufficient to prove my point.

Kollynn

[edit] Provide sources HERE

Please list, here, all the reliable print (book, magazine) sources for Alphista.

Your own web-link page you cite above contains a link to where (apparently you) admit that Alphista didn't make it in to the Lonely Planet book.

These standards for information sources ( WP:RS ) are standard Wikipedia policies. Gene Poole didn't set the reliable source standards. They're wikipedia-wide.

What else do you have? Georgewilliamherbert 19:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


Are you saying that the Lonely Planet book is the only and ultimate criterion for verifiability? Why? Draioicht


Primary references

1) Caterina Marrone, an Italian linguist, wrote about the Alphistian language and Alphistia in her book "Le Lingue Utopiche". [7]

2) Alphistia got an honorable mention in bldgblog’s invent-a-micronation contest in Dec. 2006. Bldgblog is a well-known blog on architecture and city planning. [8]

3) Alphistia is included on Stadtkreation, a German urban planning site about imaginary cities. The capital of Alphistia is described, critiqued, and maps are included. Stadtkreation is a product of Johannes Bouchain, an urban planning graduate student in Hamburg, Germany. [9]

4) Alphistia was included in Bouchain’s Exposition in Hamburg “Map Mind” in June 2006. [10]

Details of exhibition here: [11]

5) Alphistia was written about in “Io Donna”, an Italian features magazine published by the newspaper “Corriere della Sera” in 2000. A scan of this article is forthcoming.

Here is Tony Skaggs' email exchange about the article:

Thank you if you are able to send me a copy of the completed article. If there is a website, of course I could look there too. vanderse hoiven (friendly greetings) Anthony Skaggs

Maria Grazia Ligato wrote: Thank you very much for reply. Sure, I'll send you a copy of the article when is published. Please, tell me your address: I'll send you the article from the magazine I work for. It is called "Io donna" and is the weekly female magazine of Corriere della Sera, the most important newspaper in Italy. Best wishes Maria Grazia Ligato

If these are still not enough for putting a mention about Alphistia on a single line in the List of Micronations article at Wikipedia, please inform me and further evidence may follow upon request (if you bother to check the blog link I provided earlier, there's a very extended list of references; I better not flood this page with the whole of it).

Looking forward to your opinion.


Ps. Your own web-link page you cite above contains a link to where (apparently you) admit that Alphista didn't make it in to the Lonely Planet book. -- So you read the blog after all. I repeat, Alphistia is a creation of Anthony Skaggs. And I am Kollynn Rasmussen. These are two different people. My own web page is totally different from project Alphistia. Are you reading what I am saying at all? I have never discussed Alphistia's relations to Lonely Planet.

Kollynn


Additional references

[12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] [52] [53] [54] [55] [56] [57] [58] [59] [60] [61] [62] [63] [64] [65]

Kollynn


Georgewilliamherbert, it seems the removal of this micro nation from the list was unjustified and unjust. Please admit it and stop removing it from the list of micro nations. There are some micro nations included which deserve less to be on that list than this one according to your standard of verifiability but are still there. Draioicht
How does the majority of the listed entities match the WP:RS standard???

- Nairi Porter 22:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

We appear to be dealing with some sort of troll or nutter here. In any case their comments are all but incoherent, and their "references" appear to be a random selection of non-notable websites with little or no relevance to Alphistia. --Gene_poole 01:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Further review of some of the linked references seems to indicate that Alphistia is not really a micronation as that term is commonly understood - but rather a fantasy country, invented and maintained by one person as a sort of personal artistic project. Micronations generally involve multiple individuals interacting in a manner similar to that of real countries - sometimes exclusively online, and sometimes in the real world.
As far as I can tell Alphistia is one person maintaining a fantasy world populated solely by the products of his own imagination. While some artistic projects like Lizbeckistan are classifiable as micronations, because they involve active participation by lots of people other than the project's inventor, those like Alphistia, which are the sole creation of one person, are really much closer in conception to literary fantasies (eg, the worlds of Tolkien). --Gene_poole 01:51, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm prone to agreeing here. I'm a reasonable person, not a troll or a nutter (dear Gene_poole). Btw, I thought the "Primary references" list was coherent enough. But I do acknowledge the criteria for defining a micronation from a fantasy project which you stated. Then, all this having been said, which Wiki article/section would you recommend me to re-direct the Alphistia listing to? Not the micronations list, obviously. Kollynn
Try looking at Fantasy country. --Gene_poole 02:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, I will. Kollynn


Thank you Kol, you should receive the Alphistian Peace Prize for your efforts, patience and diplomacy in this mess. Sincerely, Tony Skaggs - founder of Alphistia.

The only mess here was the mess created by Kollynn - which, as I've clearly demonstrated - was nothing more than an hysterical, mis-directed storm in a teacup. Accordingly, I await his apology. --Gene_poole 04:50, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Apology? Aren't you perhaps taking yourself too seriously? -- Nairi Porter


Final word

Being the diplomat I was just declared to be, I now humbly beg for your forgiveness. If an apology would make you sleep better and feel that the Empire of Atlantium has won a battle, I'll give it. I apologise for disturbing your little Wiki realm of Gene_poole-dominated, protected, untouchable articles and entries, praised and looked over by your minions (hello, Georgewilliamherbert?) I've seen such realms in other places many times, nothing new. The only way is to ignore them. So, Long Live His Highness the Emperor. Still, i admire your hard work on Wikipedia and the precious contributions you've made. You're an inteligent man with various interests, and here I find many common things between us (yet they end here). If you weren't the maniacal control freak you appear to be according to all indications, I'd have even praised your significance for the well-being of Wikipedia. That's my final word. I also apologise for bringing a "histeric" tone to this otherwise serene academic elitist society (but it was rather refreshing, wasn't it?) Anyway. Wish you all the best.

Greetings from a free mind, Kollynn.


Kollynn: I think you are over reacting. I think it is not a personal question. This is not about jealousy. The main issue is to define whether Alphistia applies to the standards for micronation on Wikipedia. Even if these are valid for Wikipedia only, while all other online encyclopedias seem to agree that Alphistia qualifies as micronation. Gene poole first stated the presence of extensive online reference. This criterion was answered properly with evidence. Despite some of it being contested, the rest was eloquent enough. Then Gene poole put another criterion, the existence of printed materials about Alphistia and a number of mentions by third parties and possible participations on exhibitions. I think this point was answered well enough, too. Then Gene poole came up with the last criterion, Alphistia has to be popular enough and involve the support and dedication of more than one person. If this point gets a proper answer, I cannot see what else can Gene poole come up with. I believe this criterion can be answered too, as I have information about at least 5 (five) such people. Gene poole: I suggest you put on the table all the criteria that you are planning to drag out of your sleeve, so that they can be answered at once, and end this ridiculous exchange. Otherwise, please explain why you are still stubbornly denying the populairty of Alphistia, while the evidence keeps piling up. Draioicht
the standards for micronation on Wikipedia. Even if these are valid for Wikipedia only -- Actually these appear to be valid for the English version of Wikipedia only, and nowhere else. I think this speaks for itself. Kollynn
I repeat, how does the majority of the listed entities on the micronations list match the WP:RS standard? -- Nairi Porter 12:39, 31 January 2007 (UTC).
Well in a few months you're going to Australia. You could choke the guy with your own hands :) (Mahnmut / Quaero togam pacem)
Some interesting remarks by Skaggs.

...noticed that Georgewilliamherbert consistently mispells Alphistia (types it out as "Alphista"). Obviously he's a sloppy wiki editor, as well as a sloppy thinker.

The Lonely Planet Guide to Micronations is selected profiles of 25 or so of them. It's hardly a definitive or comprehensive source, and these wikinuts have a lot of nerve using that as their "notability" indicator...the book didn't even exist before Sept. of last year.

Their continued obstinancy over thinking you (Kollynn) are me (Skaggs) would be funny if it weren't so indicative of their numbskullery.

The Emperor of Atlantium is a publicity whore. Look at his site - the stamps, the money, the coins, it's all about his own personal identity - a Stalinist Enver Hoxha style personality cult of himself. The other guy (Georgewilliamherbert) has no credentials at all, he's just a wiki-bureaucrat, some kind of computer nerd of no importance. Doesn't even have a micronation or any indication it's an interest of his.


I'm not going to comment on these facts. It's just facts.


Here are some more facts that might be of more interest.


There are more items that I think are relevant to the "notability" debate. Alphistia was included in an article in a Dutch newspaper (see text below). Also it is included on a list of intentional communities, and what a surprise, on Esperanto Wikipedia, where no one has deleted the entry in more than a year:

Alphistia is not just a micronation, it is a "new country project". It is listed on the intentional Communities Database here: [66]

The Alphistian Language is written about on the Esperanto Vikipedio-- [67]

Alphistia is mentioned in an article in the Dutch newspaper “De Telegraaf”.


(Source: Lexis-Nexis online database) Copyright 1999 De Telegraaf De Telegraaf September 16, 1999

HEADLINE: DIT IS DE KONING DER MII-EILANDEN. GENOOTSCHAP SCHEPT AL 15 JAAR EIGEN DROOMWERELD

DATELINE: MARAT IDAR

Genootschapschept alvijftien jaareigendroomwereld Dit is de koningder Mii -eilanden'Veel mensen vinden ons wel een beetje zonderling'.

door EMILE BODE.

Kollynn


The promised references.

Notable Mentions of Alphistia:

Alphistia discussed in Books

The Italian linguist Caterina Marrone discussed Alphistia and the Alphistian language in her book “Le Lingue Utopiche” (Utopian Language), in Italian. The website below excerpts the section about Alphistia: [[68]]

Alphistia in the Media

[69] Alphistia was mentioned in an article about geofictional countries in the Dutch newspaper “De Telegraaf”, in September 16, 1999 issue.

[70] Alphistia was featured on the cover of “Fantas”, the journal of the Dutch Geofictional Society. The issue date was March, 2000.

link forthcoming Alphistia was featured in an article about micronations by Maria Grazia Ligato in the Italian magazine “Io Donna” published by Corriere della Sera in February 2000.

Websites with Notable Mentions of Alphistia

[71] Geoff Manaugh writes the highly-respected BLDGblog site. In December, he featured Alphistia as a runner-up in the Invent-a-Micronation Contest he held.

[72] Stadtkreation features Alphistia, providing background information about the project, and maps of its capital city Enteve. Stadtkreation is maintained by Johannes Bouchain, an urban planning grad student in Germany.

Alphistia in Exhibitions

Alphistia participated in an exhibition in Utrecht, the Netherlands in 1999 about geofictional projects. The front page of the exhibit is here: [73] A close-up of one of the display cases with Alphistian materials: [74] The display case on the right has Alphistian artifacts: [75]

Alphistia participated in an exhibition in Hamburg, Germany in June 2006 called “Mind Maps” The front page of the exhibit is here: [76] The section of the exhibition about Alphistia is here: [[77]]

Thanks to A.Skaggs' guidance.

Of course, I could provide a blog link where all the above are listed. But it seems the condition is to present them explicitly here (not sure whether this is a Wiki rule), so here they are.

More to follow.

Kollynn


"The Alphistian Times" has a good story for you Gene_poole. I doubt you've ever read the book anyway. [78] Kollynn

The website here is filled with the verb "would be," implying that Alphistia is still/again an entity with no real world existance. I have been to some of the above articles, and while they look interesting, and I compliment "Alphistians" for their contributions to urban planing theory and creativity... they hold nor claim actual area or political power. That's kind of important if you want to be considered a micronation rather than a project. —ScouterSig 16:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

ScouterSig, I acknowledge the requirement for territory as a factor for the classification as micronation. Alphistia has no territory - and that's the main issue in the whole paradigm behind the project and a primary point in the Alphistian doctrine - the search for territory (e.g. Lesenum, or living-space). Unfortunately, currently there is no such proper Wiki list to add Alphistia to (say, List of geofiction projects), and I don't have the capacity to make one (it's pointless to start a list like this without having enough reference, just in order to adjust it for the presence of a single project like Alphistia). If you could re-direct me to a list that I am still not aware of, I shall be most grateful. Thanks in advance.
And still, this cannot explain the fact that Alphistia figures in most non-Wikipedia online encyclopedias, plus a number of Wiki entries in other languages than English (i.e., which are incomprehensive for Gene_poole, hence are not subject to his interference). Kollynn
I thought the main issue about "Alphistia" was the level of notability and verifiability. Their concern- the list could be filled with hundreds of projects... but why not... So they thought they had to put some high entry threshold. As if anyone can define these level thresholds objectively. Also I'm not sure according to what criteria these guys are selected to determine that. Besides, all their requirements were answered properly. I doubt even Atlanteum or whatever it's called would answer them so convincingly. The only remaining reason for the absence of this project from that list is the presence of that guy Gene-Poole. Forget him and go on. Alphistia will survive the pettiness of such individuals. (Mahnmut / Quaero togam pacem)
This is not, I repeat, not a flame war. All I'm trying is to be reasonable and find out where's the problem and how/if it's repairable. The question is not about a single line mentioning someone's individual project. This is a matter of principle. Kollynn
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