Talk:List of metropolitan areas in Taiwan

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[edit] Page move

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved:

[edit] List of metropolitan areas in Taiwan → Metropolitan areas in ROC (Taiwan)

Quoted from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese): "the word "Taiwan" should not be used if the term "Republic of China" is more accurate.". The original title of the article was Metropolitan areas in ROC (Taiwan), and was moved at 03:28, Feb 16 2005 by Jiang. Alternatives for renaming: List of metropolitan areas in the Republic of China, List of metropolitan areas in the ROC, and List of metropolitan areas in the ROC (Taiwan). — Instantnood 20:14, Feb 16 2005 (UTC)

    • Metropolitan areas in the Republic of China (ROC) is defined by the Directorate-General of Budget, Accounting and Statistics of the Executive Yuan of the ROC. It applies to the entire territories under ROC's control, in other words it is not restricted to the island of Taiwan, or the province of Taiwan. (Although the outcome is that all metropolitan areas are located on the island of Taiwan.) — Instantnood 21:17, Feb 16 2005 (UTC)
  • By nominating I support moving the article. — Instantnood 20:17, Feb 16 2005 (UTC) ( moving to List of metropolitan areas in the Republic of China — Instantnood 07:49, Feb 17 2005 (UTC) )
  • OPPOSE for the same reasons I enumerated below at length in the Requested Move for Politics of Taiwan → Politics of the Republic of China &c. However, I would support a move to Metropolitan areas in Taiwan simply because the article is substantially more than a mere "List of." —ExplorerCDT 20:44, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose Your proposed move does not make it more accurate since all these metro areas are located on the geographical island of Taiwan. The title is also ungrammatical and fails to convey that this is moreso a list than an actual article--Jiang 21:06, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • The article employs the official definition by the Directorate-General of Budget, Accounting and Statistics of the Executive Yuan, but not the governments of Taiwan Province, Taipei Municipality and Kaohsiung Municipality.
    • Alternatives for renaming are also suggested. — Instantnood 21:22, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. There is a policy to use common names. --Improv 21:11, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • Please also refer to Don't overdo it. :-) — Instantnood 21:23, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
      • ROC and Taiwan is not overdoing it or inaccurate like using "Tidal Wave" for "Tsunami." Also, the section you're citing does not say we shouldn't use the more common "Mark Twain" just because "Samuel Clemens" was the name on his birth certificate and other documents where he had to be legally recognized. —ExplorerCDT 03:34, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
        • Using Taiwan to refer to the ROC is common, yet it is not accurate. — Instantnood 07:47, Feb 17 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. No-one outside America would understand the new name. Use the name everyone understands, "Taiwan", jguk 21:16, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • I don't think wikipedians who made up the conventions and placed the article at Republic of China are all from the states. — Instantnood 07:46, Feb 17 2005 (UTC)
    • You may be confusing two issues here: if a substantial number of people would be helped by the word "Taiwan", then appropriate redirects should be created. But that has no bearing on what the article should be called. Issues of understanding can easily be addressed in the first paragraph of the article. Using "the name everyone understands" is not necessarily accurate, universal, or NPOV. --MarkSweep 01:08, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Taiwan as the name of a geographical area (the island) is not controversial. -- Curps 21:38, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • Matsu Islands and Quemoy are neither part of the island of Taiwan, nor province of Taiwan. Yet they are territories under ROC's control. — Instantnood 07:44, Feb 17 2005 (UTC)
    • If you read the article, you'll see that it is not about a geographical area. It is about the definition of what counts as a "metropolitan area" as defined by the ROC government. As such, it is primarily about the ROC and should have a title that reflects that. The words "list of" in the title are clearly misleading and may create the wrong impression that this article is about geography. It is not. --MarkSweep 00:59, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose I would prefer that any Taiwan/ROC article uses simply "Taiwan" ObsidianOrder 21:48, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • That involves modifying the conventions. Currently the article about the government is at Republic of China but not Taiwan. — Instantnood 07:45, Feb 17 2005 (UTC)
      • Yes, it does. I would like to see the conventions changed. I would consider the following: PRC = the political entity. China = geographic region, includes Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macao, etc. Taiwan = political and geographic entity with the same status as a country. ROC = just a footnote under Taiwan explaining where the ROC name comes from and why it's used. Just my 0.02. ObsidianOrder 13:30, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose For same reasons as I cite in other move below.--Silverback 14:47, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • "Taiwan" is not an accurate term to refer to the government, and in fact those pro-independence politicians who also advocate changing the country's official title to Taiwan (or "Republic of Taiwan") do not regard Quemoy and the Matsu Islands of the ROC's province of Fukien as their territories. — Instantnood 18:27, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose As stated above, all the metropolitan areas listed are on the island of Taiwan. In addition, the vast majority of people outside of east Asia are more familiar with the name "Taiwan" than "Republic of China". Redxiv 18:02, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • The article is based upon a definition by the Directorate-General of Budget, Accounting and Statistics of the Executive Yuan of the ROC, which is applied and applicable to all territories under ROC's control, i.e. not restricted to the island of Taiwan or province of Taiwan. — Instantnood 18:28, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)
    • I repeat: this article is not primarily about geography. It's about the designation "metropolitan area" as defined by the ROC government. --MarkSweep 01:08, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Support, use official name. Grue 07:32, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Support (but it needs a better target for the move). I was reluctant at first, but after reading the article in question, I have to agree. This article is about a standard set by the ROC government, and as such it is about a political entity (i.e., the ROC), not a geographic entity (i.e. Taiwan). --MarkSweep 00:31, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • The name suggested on the title of this section was the old name of the article, before moving by Jiang. I agree it needs a better target.
      Yes the standard is drawn by the ROC, and (to repeat) not by the governments of Taiwan Province, and Taipei and Kaohsiung municipalities. — Instantnood 13:48 Feb 20 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. If this were simply a list, I would've opposed the move, but it does indeed appear to be an article about an ROC standard. A.D.H. (t&m) 03:25, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose Moving would invoke ambiguity for many readers. --Aphaea* 11:02, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • The content of the article already tells the ROC is a government controlling Taiwan. The ambiguity issue can be easily solved by redirecting "..Taiwan" to "..the Republic of China". — Instantnood 13:43 Feb 20 2005 (UTC)
  • Support Again, I'm not clear why anyone would oppose an increase in accuracy; that's what we're trying to achieve in this encycopædia isn't it? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:12, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. Both "Taiwan" and "ROC" by themselves are ambiguous. BlankVerse ∅ 06:30, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Since these metropolitan areas are in the geographical region of Taiwan, there is no POV problem. The new name is clumsy and inelegant. —Lowellian (talk) 09:20, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment: Here's what I think should be the rule of thumb (a very, very simplified version of a rule of thumb; there are going to be complex exceptions): if the article is about geography, use Taiwan. If the article is about culture, use China. If the article is about politics, use Republic of China. —Lowellian (talk) 09:24, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. While the status of Quemoy and Matsu is obviously of encyclopedic interest, it is scarcely grounds to obfuscate articles about Taiwan by using a confusing, therefore not conveying information accurately to users who have not previously been initiated, name. Susvolans (pigs can fly) Did you know that there is a proposal to treat dissent from naming conventions as vandalism? 18:44, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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