Talk:List of gairaigo and wasei-eigo terms

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[edit] Article Deletion/Merge

We already have wasei-eigo and gairaigo ... do we need this article too? Not to mention the fact that many would consider the article title offensive. CES 13:12, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • There's a Japanese version of this page (see the alternate language links) which is quite big. So this could grow that big, if so, it'd not be a good idea to merge. (There are also Japanese versions of those two pages). 132.205.95.62 02:22, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • True (and I just noticed on the talk page of the Japanese version that they talk about whether to keep the page or not too!). I still wonder about the title though. CES 12:24, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. The current title "List of Gairaigo and Wasei-eigo terms" is not offensive (not sure what the offensive version was), and the linked Japanese version is 日本語における外来語の事例集 or "list of gairaigo examples found in Japanese," which doesn't include wasei-eigo terms. See also: Wikipedia is not a dictionary. --69.214.232.105 01:50, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've renamed the article and moved the lists from Gairaigo and Wasei-eigo here, and added pointers to prevent lists from starting up again on those pages. This article should remain just a list with minimal descriptive text. -- Paul Richter 09:39, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Two more

If memory serves, aren't "sarariman" (salaryman) and "bi-bi" (bye bye)? (Please forgive my undoubtedly incorrect Janglish spellings). -- John Fader (talk | contribs) 23:53, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

the first is correct, but the latter is "bai-bai" Mike H 12:25, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
almost. the "i" in salaryman is a long vowel, so it needs a macron or a circumflex over it. Please don't add to the main article if you're not sure about it. --69.214.232.105 22:30, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed

  • "Engai-ringu - Engagement ring" was removed because it is bullshit. Searches at Google Japan for "エンガイリング," "エンゲイリング," "エンガイ リング," and "エンゲイ リング" returned zero results each.--69.214.232.105 22:30, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I got three hits for エンゲリング Fg2 00:22, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)
I got about 5 hits for エンゲーリング, however that is hardly enough to qualify as a note-worthy term. Also, it should have been romanized properly (enge ringu, engē ringu) if the contributor wasn't bullshitting and knew what he was talking about. --69.214.232.105 01:31, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Proper wasei-eigo of 'engagement ring' is エンゲージリング 'engēji ringu' (engage ring). Googling エンゲージリング gives about 132,000 hits. --Kusunose 03:56, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Foreign Nipponized English?

I've heard that a number of famous/important sites in New York City have been "nipponized" by resident Japanese. Would those be relevant to this article, or is this only for terms originating from Japan? --Feitclub 01:32, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

Are you talking about how the Japanese transcribe/pronounce names, due to their limited phonetic vocabulary, such as Central Park becoming something like "Sentoraru Paaku" and Burukkurin, Buronkusu, etc? (I don't know the exact transliteration here, I'm only guessing estimates...) If that's what you mean, I hardly think it qualifies, Native English-speakers would surely have trouble pronouncing Köln and Seine correctly, too.85.226.122.205 00:57, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Addition: 'doctor-stop'

I would like to submit the term 'doctor-stop.' I Googled it and there are a couple of Japanese sites that feature it in the title (there's a TV series, a CD...) -- so I think it's legitimate. What it means is: when the doctor tells you to stop doing something. For instance, "I got a doctor-stop on drinking coffee."

Here's a good example: Nagashima-kantoku, munen no dokutaa sutoppu. A stroke prevented Shigeo Nagashima from coaching the Olympic baseball team. I encourage you to add it to the article. Fg2 21:27, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Addition: kosupure ("cos-play")

Derived from English "costume-play," kosupure (sp?) means a costume fetish, or wearing costumes during sex.

An especially interesting example, because "cos-play" seems to be now an English word derived from the Japanese, which in turn is of course from the English. I don't think the Japanese kosupree necessarily means fetishes or sex, although it can and often does; the English seems to have taken only those meanings. Fg2 05:54, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
The English borrowing certainly has not only taken those meanings: anyone who dresses up as a character for a fan convention is called a "cosplayer". Don't be fooled by how an Internet search for the term brings up a bunch of sex-related hits. As the song in Avenue Q says, "The Internet Is For Porn". — Gwalla | Talk 20:37, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Collation

What the hell is up with the collation of this list? It's wrong for japanese, and it's wrong for english. I added my entry where it seemed the current system wanted it to go, but really we should pick one option and fix the order of the whole list so it makes some sense. As this is en.wikip probably collating english style on the hepburn is the best option. --zippedmartin 10:59, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

The table makes it hard to work on the article. Also, it resulted from a merger of two earlier articles. Is there a better way to organize it than in a table? Fg2 12:41, July 30, 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree that it's a pain, also makes the page impossible to read as well. Possible == splits == would be to separate out the wasei eigo terms (not very many, and possble where-to-draw the line issues), or listing along language-of-origin grounds (leaves a pretty long list for english still). Or just do headings by collation, either a/k/s/t/n/h/n/y/r/w or a/b/d/e/f/g/h... depending on what we're following. --zippedmartin 13:32, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I finally reordered the list. The most objective way to do it, I figured, was to use standard Japanese, instead of the dog's breakfast we had going there. Sorry if there are any errors, but I think I checked it pretty well. Kcumming 15:54, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed removals

I would propose that gairaigo that are taken "as is" from English should be removed from this list. If you included such entries, the list could potentially have thousands of entries. We should limit it to the following:

  • wasei-eigo where words are borrowed directly but have different meanings (ex: manshon)
  • wasei-eigo where words are modified beyond recognition or are new constructions (ex: terebi, O.L.)
  • gairaigo from non-English languages (ex: tabako)
  • gairaigo with notable etymologies or subtleties (ex: garasu vs. gurasu)

Based on these criteria, I suggest that the following be deleted, since there's nothing particularly interesting about them.

  • ai rabu yū
  • on-za-rokku
  • dabingu
  • fōku (sure fork and folk can be mixed up, but that's not too significant)
  • fōchun kukkī
  • bura
  • beddo
  • mobairu

Also, I propose that this list be reordered in proper Japanese dictionary order...which it's pretty close to right now, but it's a little bit ambiguous in some cases, such as ka vs ga.

Hi, I think those are good classifications, very similar to the thinking that went into distinguishing this list from gairaigo and wasei-eigo. But in the case of those two articles, the concept was that they would be the expository articles that use only small numbers of examples to illustrate main points, and anything else goes here in the list. So I think this is the place for all the gairaigo (as usual, not considering old borrowings from Chinese and Korean to be gairaigo). I don't worry about lists growing long. Wikipedia's got the capacity. If eventually it needs to be split into groups of first letters (such as a-f, g-l etc.) or first kana (a-ko, sa-to etc.) then that's still ok. When you look at the phenomenal growth of Wikipedia over the last couple of years you realize how much energy is being devoted to creating new material. This list (these lists) could grow too.
But as lists grow longer, organization becomes more important, and that was your second point. I think I've put some of my contributions in alphabetical order, and some in a-i-u-e-o order. Which is to say, I'm confused about what's best. For the person who knows about the Japanese writing system and is trying to locate a word, the Japanese order makes good sense, whereas for the casual English reader or the person who has studied the use of foreign words in other languages and wants to see how it works in Japanese, a-b-c is the way to go. I'm curious as to your reasons for selecting Japanese dictionary order: was it because of the present state of the article, or do you feel it's best? Fg2 21:42, August 17, 2005 (UTC)


As for the first point, I believe that Wikipedia does have the capacity. However, I would say that additions like dabingu or bura make the list difficult and overly large for the reader. It makes it hard to find the more interesting entries, as they become lost in an overwhelmingly long list. If we split the list into categories like I suggested above, that would alleviate the issue.
As for the ordering issue, I believe that the Japanese ordering is best because it is unambiguous. If you use romanized order, you depend on a certain form of romanization, mixed with a standard English ordering, which seems irrelevant. Plus, it is a reference list. If somebody's browsing it, order doesn't really matter too much. If you want to find a certain word, then you can just use the browser's find function. The ordering, I would say, is more important for people adding content, so they know immediately if they're adding a duplicate.
I think the English Alphabet collation would be the best choice for the English Wikipedia. 85.226.122.205 00:59, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portuguese/English

CES,

This is a selected list of gairaigo, words originating or based on foreign language (generally Western) terms, including wasei-eigo (pseudo-Anglicisms). Many derive from Portuguese, due to that country's early role in Japanese-Western interaction

I agree it was originally misleading--I should have done what you did in adding "but most come from English..."; nonetheless, English is mentioned in the first sentence as forming a major sub-component, the wasei-eigo. Thanks for helping out --Dpr 03:16, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] cf table (French)?

What is the purpose of "cf table(French)?" I don't think it's significant that the English word came from the French word...after all that applies to something like a third of the English language...

[edit] Some possibilities

Here are some words that could be added if they're not already there. I don't have a dictionary at hand to look up exact spellings or derivations. If you put any into the article, it might be worth deleting from this list, or striking out.

[edit] Automotive

  • handoru
  • furonto garasu
  • akuseru
  • beruto, shiito beruto
  • enjin
  • taiyaa
  • hoiiru
  • toransu
  • bureeki
  • saido bureeki
  • wan bokkusu
  • wagon, wagon-sha
  • torakku
  • kureen-sha (crane)
  • tanku rōrii
  • banpaa
  • uaipaa
  • mafuraa
  • bakku miraa
  • doaa, doaa rokku
  • takushii
  • oiru, oiru shokku
  • gasoriin, gasoriin sutando
  • doraibu

[edit] Medicine, therapy, health, hygiene

  • kuranku
  • noirōze
  • kataaru
  • ningen dokku
  • haburashi

[edit] Food, beverage, cooking, dining

  • rebaa
  • jagaimo, jaga (Jakarta)
  • chikin
  • katsu, katsuretsu
  • pōku
  • biifu, suteeki, biifu suteeki
  • hanbaagaa
  • hotto doggu
  • uinnaa
  • sōseeji
  • kyabetsu
  • usutaa sōsu
  • fuisshu
  • tsuna
  • sandoitchi, sando
  • mayoneezu
  • sōsu
  • doresshingu
  • bagetto
  • rōru, koppe pan
  • raisu
  • biiru
  • uisukii
  • wain
  • uokka
  • baabon
  • on za rokku
  • sutoreeto
  • kakuteeru
  • piinatsu, piinatsu bataa
  • kurakkaa
  • jūsu
  • orenji, orenji jūsu
  • remon
  • miruku
  • tii
  • remon tii, miruku tii, aisu tii
  • sukasshu, remon sukasshu
  • chokoreeto
  • banira
  • sutorōberii
  • painappuru
  • kokonatsu
  • kiuifurūtsu
  • gureepu
  • gureepufurūtsu
  • raimu
  • kokoa, hotto kokoa, aisu kokoa
  • chiramisu
  • nata de koko
  • mango
  • banana
  • hurūtsu
  • zerii
  • monburan
  • purin
  • sarada
  • retasu
  • tomato
  • onion
  • naifu
  • f(u)ōku
  • supūn
  • kimuchi
  • karubi
  • bibinba
  • sabure
  • bataa
  • kuriimu
  • maagarin
  • esunikku
  • piza or pitts(u)a
  • supagetti
  • pasuta
  • baikingu, dorinku baikingu, dorinku baa
  • kōhii, kapuchiino, ratte, esupuresso
  • furappe
  • shinamon

[edit] Electronics, software, IT, communications

  • rajio, rajikase
  • kasetto teepu rekōdaa
  • terebi
  • bideo
  • konpyūtaa
  • intaanetto, netto
  • nettowaaku
  • haado, sofuto, f(u)aamu
  • ii meeru
  • saito (Web site)
  • terehon, terehon kaado
  • kiibōdo
  • disuku doraibu
  • kiro, mega, giga
  • furoppii disuku
  • konpakuto furasshu
  • maikurodoraibu
  • mobairu


[edit] Clothing, accessories

  • shatsu, waishatsu
  • burūson
  • seetaa
  • surakksu
  • sukaato
  • doresu
  • jaketto
  • būtsu
  • baggu, handobaggu
  • beruto
  • nekutai
  • hankachi
  • suniikaa
  • sokkusu
  • pantsu, pansuto, pantii, panchira
  • nairon
  • shiruku
  • puretaporute
  • ōdaameedo

[edit] Plants and animals

  • kosumosu
  • panjii
  • raion
  • taigaa
  • kyatto
  • doggu
  • zebura

[edit] Music, drama, dance

  • myūjikku
  • piano
  • gitaa, ereki
  • doramu
  • baiorin
  • cherō
  • toranpetto
  • oboe
  • sakkusu
  • ōkesutora
  • echūdo
  • koncheruto
  • myūjikaru
  • ronguran (long run)
  • shinema
  • shiataa
  • opera
  • dorama
  • sutajio
  • raibu
  • baree
  • rizumu, rizumikaru
  • haamonii
  • kurashikku
  • jazu
  • modaan
  • warutsu
  • burūsu

[edit] Sports

  • supōtsu
  • beesubōru
  • futtobōru, amefuto
  • sakkaa
  • hokkee, aisu hokkee
  • basukettobōru, basuketto
  • bareebōru
  • gurando
  • sutajiamu
  • orinpikku (meaning "Olympics")
  • sukeeto, supiido sukeeto, f(u)igyaa sukeeto

[edit] Photography, optics

  • kamera
  • renzu
  • f(u)irumu
  • tere, waido, nōmaru, makuro
  • furasshu
  • kyabine (size of print)
  • ōto (auto)
  • manyuaru
  • nega
  • purinto
  • DPE (developing, printing, enlarging)
  • shattaa

[edit] Colors

  • burū
  • guriin
  • ierō
  • burakku
  • howaito

[edit] Miscellaneous

  • andaaguraundo, angura
  • doramu kan
  • pointo (railroad)
  • guriin-sha
  • f(u)ain (fine), fine play, nice shot
  • waido
  • nyūsu
  • gerira
  • jiguzagu
  • papa
  • mama
  • rupo, ruporaitaa
  • kanpa (from Russian)

[edit] Plus alpha

What is the reason for saying that plus alpha is a misreading of plus x? Fg2 08:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

-> Response, this was basically copied from the Japanese Wikipedia (I've seen it in other sources too). I guess that if you write in cursive / italics especially, the characters α and x can look pretty similar. Kcumming 06:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I see the resemblance but not the underlying reasoning. "Plus X" is the name of a black-and-white photographic film, but doesn't seem synonymous with the Japanese "plus alpha." Oh well... Thanks for the response. Fg2 08:31, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
In this case, "x" is the "x" that is often used as a sort of generic variable name. It's not so much the actual phrase "plus x" (which isn't really a common idiom itself) that was misinterpreted, but mostly just the variable itself. Kcumming 20:18, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roadshow

Take a look at the definition given here: [1]. Ignore the bit where they say it's equivalent to "preview" in English; what they're describing is clearly a film's commercial premiere. And if you Google "テレビロードショー" or something similar, you'll find several uses that have nothing to do with theatres. --Lanius 15:15, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Wow, you're right. Thanks for the correction (as well as the URL of a good resource for this field: http://cinemakun.com/word/index.html)! Apologies all around for sticking a misleading definition into the list. Most of my contact with the word was through television, and my impression was that it referred to flicks that were making the rounds of the theaters; I see now that it is only certain, selected theaters—i.e., premiere showings, mainly in major cities. (And no, I don't usually shoot from the hip—I guess I just got ahead of myself on this one.) Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 16:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This page is crazy

There are thousands and thousands of gairaigo in Japanese. Most English words can and are sometimes borrowed in Japanese. Wikipedia is not a dictionary, but I think a listing of wasei-eigo/wasei-gairaigo is interesting enough to warrant an entry. What I propose is that this list is moved to the title "List of wasei-garaigo" (or possibly "wasei-eigo"), and remove all the gairaigo. Some of the entries now are just stupid, such as アイ・ラブ・ユー, sure, it's the way Japanese pronounce it but it is in no way a part of the Japanese language. Mackan 14:01, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I partially agree. See above (proposed removals). I think there's no point to having straight English loan words...there could be tens of thousands. Unless there's some real valid objection, I'm going to do some pruning some time soon. Kcumming 16:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "lucky"

  • I hear "lucky" a lot in Japanese. Should it be added? Danny Lilithborne 09:19, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I've been trying to promote a policy where no English loanwords are listed unless there's something significant about their etymology, phonology, or usage. I think that "lucky" kind of falls in a grey area. It is a direct loan from the English word. However, it does have a pretty idiomatic usage in Japanese (similar to the way that "chance") does. So I could be convinced, but it would be best if we described the particularities of the Japanese usage in the entry. Kcumming 04:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The list above at Talk:List of gairaigo and wasei-eigo terms#Some possibilities contains a lot of suggestions. If you feel like it, you might strike out any that you feel do not pass your criteria. Fg2 05:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New page for mistakes

I decided there should be a new list page for terms that are often mistaken for being gairaigo.

Take a look and let me know what you think. --Kcumming 04:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Is neta often mistaken as gairaigo? Hadn't heard that one. Fg2
Well I don't know how commonly it is, but I have heard it mistaken as such, due to it often being written in katakana and its similarity to the word "net." --Kcumming 15:27, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Ah, "net" -- that makes a sensible mistake. Fg2 21:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Margarine

The entry for バター mentions margarine as well, but for the most part, margarine is　マーガリン (link is to Japanese wikipedia). Is there any specific instance where バター is mislabelled on margerine as currently described in the バター line of the article? Neier 23:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish words

I have seen that some gairaigo words are referring to Portuguese. However some are closer to Spanish than Portuguese, for example pan. Gairaigo:pan, Spanish:pan, English:bread

Don’t forget that Filipinas was a Spanish colony where Spanish was talk. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.97.233.91 (talk) 10:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

It doesn't really matter what they're closer to, it matters from what language they were borrowed. In the case of pan, the word is similar in all Romance Languages, coming from common roots in Latin. But it was the Portuguese who brought the concept of bread to the Japanese. --Kcumming 14:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
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