Talk:List of former Muslims

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Islam

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 5 Nov 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.
Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 14 December 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents

[edit] For anyone who thinks this page should be Deleted, read this

Undoubtedly, there will be many "people" or a group of people who will panic and want this page deleted as soon as possible. Now, List of converts to Islam already exists and so this is a list created just like that list, of Notable people who have left Islam. Now relax, spare yourself the trouble and dont nominate it for deletion because it wont be deleted. Thank you. --Matt57 06:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

As noted on Category_talk:Former_Muslims: ... one possible reason for concern might be that renouncing Islam is a death-penalty offense under Islamic law, and that people have had fatwa death penalties declared against them, or have actually been killed, for statements or actions deemed "disrespectful" to Islam. Under these circumstances, putting this category on such a prominent website might well be seen as increasing the risk of death for those listed on it. The same is not true for a category of converts to Islam. I make this comment not in advocacy but as a possible answer to your question. -- SAJordan 07:58, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I knew people would somehow try to get this page deleted. Now, people only from your group will want this page deleted. The fact is, these people who have left Islam are already out there. People already know about their apostacy. Someone tried to get the Category deleted and it wasnt deleted. See you there on the CFD page.--Matt57 14:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
What "your group" do you attribute to me? And why do you allege that I "will want this page deleted"? You asked why people were concerned about this topic, and I undertook to answer your question — not in advocacy, as I said above. -- SAJordan 19:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Followup: after posting the above, I went to the deletion vote page where you eloquently and persuasively argued that other lists should also be deleted. You've convinced me. So I've just joined "your group" favoring deletion. Congratulations! -- SAJordan 20:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
So let me ask you: Whats wrong with List of converts to Islam? Why do you think it should be deleted? lol. I only said that IF this page is deleted, THEN so should be the others. I'm not saying that these pages should be deleted, period. I'm only arguing for a fair treatment. Now, I think these pages should exist by all means - just like the public thinks on that Voting page. --Matt57 14:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
It was the point at which you said — ... I will request the deletion of other lists as well such as List of Muslims, and its many Sub Lists which are linked on that page. If somehow List of Muslims page is also not deleted, I'll take this matter up to Arb Com. — that convinced me. "Fair treatment", after all. -- SAJordan 15:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Fair treatment aside, you're not telling me why you think its OK to delete List of Muslims or List of converts to Islam.--Matt57 15:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions for improvement

If possible, can you give a short 1-2 sentence explaination on why or when these people converted, or who they are.--Sefringle 22:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. It also must be sourced to assure we're not "outing" people.--T. Anthony 12:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, we need to improve this article and display information in a better way. First by profession, then an alphabetical list and then more if possible. Tabulating and pictures would be nice if possible. Infact, right now I can think of a picture of Nonie Darwish, she has one on her page. Pictures will make this page look nice. We have to improve this page fast because the "others" (you know who) will want to get it deleted. The "Former Muslims" category was a target of Deletion as well. --Matt57 14:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I got Nonie's picture in. You guys, bring in more pictures too. There's a great Shoebat picture on the internet for which I've asked permission. See how nice the page looks with pictures? And this is very important for this page considering how dangerous it is to convert out of Islam. I think it would be pertinent to note at the top of the page that converting from Islam is a death penalty by Sharia law (or hadith etc). I'll see what I can do sometime. Meanwhile, please make some more improvements. --Matt57 14:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List orders

Since this is a list, it should be a list by:

  • Alphaphabetical order
  • Profession
  • Country of Origin

It would be nice if we can have a table which can sort on a click. I wonder if thats possible here. --Matt57 16:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I added some annotation in a few places, this is acceptable or even desirable, and also more sections. I'll try to alphabetize the sections a bit better here soon. A table is neat, but also a lot of work. Sorry to tell you I'm not committed/interest enough in this article to do that, but good luck.--T. Anthony 16:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for the sections. I hope others join in as well. I can handle making the table if you tell me what we should put there.--Matt57 04:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
It depends on what you want to do with a table. In a list like this I think a section on their current religious status is a natural. For example what they converted to or if they're now secular-humanists or atheists. In cases where it's not clear, including those where they're uncertain for themselves, you can put "uncertain" or "undefined." A section for sources is also a good idea as it reduces the chances of listing people who don't want to be listed. Other stuff, like a section for pictures and such, depends on how much you want to do. Most of the lists at Wikipedia:Featured lists#Religion and beliefs are tabled and can give you a sense of how to do it.--T. Anthony 05:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] relevance?

what is the reason for having a "list of people who left Islam"? did they leave Islam because of Islam? or did they convert to X because of X? where is the precedence for having "list of people who left X"? simply, if an ex-Christian converts to Islam, he is placed in the "List of converts to Islam" and not duplicated in the "list of people who left Christianity", and neither is any other convert duplicated in "list of people who left Hinduism", "list of people who left Athiesm". who says they converted to another thought through negating their own? ITAQALLAH 04:15, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Your query has been answered now on the AFD. The list is here to stay. It will be back on the project's page as well. I hope that makes you happy. --Matt57 06:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ali Sina is notable with respect to Islam articles (but not Pokemon articles).

The following text is suggested and is being removed usually by saying he is non-notable and non-existant.

This is wrong as with respect to apostacy and Islam he is very relevant. Pseudonymity is no grounds for rejection as there is precedent that Apostacy in Islam can have inhumane consequences. Obviously what Ali Sina thinks of Pokemon is not notable as he hasn't commented on it before. I suggest we reword to,

as that removes the wikilink around his name. Ttiotsw 04:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

my main concern was that "Ali Sina (Pseudonym)" by itself probably wasn't worthy of mention: the list is for those who reach the level of notability required for biographical articles. mentioning FFI along with it, which is notable, complicates matters slightly. regardless, Ibn Warraq's book on its own is not an establishment of notability at all. despite the fact that the pubication is not something i would call "independant", there are dozens of other personalities who give their "testimonies" in that book who are dreadfully non-notable, such as "Kamran Mirza" (not the other Kamran Mirza), "Azam Kamguian", "Faizal Muhammad", some people only known by their first names such as "Nadia", "Faiza", and another simply referred to as "A Malaysian ex-Muslim". therefore, it cannot be argued that mention in this book alone grants a non-notable figure the right to be mentioned in a list about notable ex-Muslims. ITAQALLAH 15:53, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

A Pseudonym can not a be an entry if i create a book that becomes notable were i say i was a ex-Jew, do i get there? A anonymous person saying he is ex-something can not be takes as a RS. Were is his proof? Its a good gimic to claim being a ex-Muslim, it will sell you more books, but i see no evidence. --Striver - talk 15:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Given that this is a pseudonym, is there verfiable sources to show that the person in question was once a Muslim? --BostonMA talk 16:26, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The notability of Sina and his Faith Freedom International organization was recently established during an AfD debate. If we require that the person should provide us with his or her picture, home address and what not, then Sina is not the only apostate that should be removed from the list. Fact, however, is that we got no reason to doubt his claim that he an Iranian and a former Muslim, and as long as that is the case he's an ex-Muslim because he says he is an ex-Muslim. -- Karl Meier 16:59, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
the notability of FFI was established (apparently) in the previous AfD(s). not so for Sina, however. ITAQALLAH 17:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
His claim to be a former Muslim may or may not be true. Whether we choose to doubt him is beside the point. Assertions in Wikipedia require reliable sources. In this case, our source is anonymous. The notability of Sina and Faith Freedom Internation does not imply that Sina is a reliable source. --BostonMA talk 17:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Whether or not Ali Sina is a reliable source doesn't matter when we are going to determine if he is notable enough to be mentioned on this list. That is an entirely different question. However, what does indeed matter is the fact that the organization that he founded and is still the most important person behind has been determined to be notable in a recent AfD debate. Another thing that matters that he has personally attracted a fair amount of media attention, and has been mentioned in several articles outside FFI. You can find the links to these articles in the external links section in the Faith Freedom International article. -- Karl Meier 22:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

"Ali Sina" should be kept. Arrow740 00:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The purpose of Wikipedia is to not support a particular view but to be an encyclopedia and present a consensus view on a particular subject. The reasons for excluding someone from one from this list if they are living is through the guidelines of WP:LIVING as it is describing someone (and with Muslims in some countries this can be a very grave and dangerous situation). The basis of notability on this page need not make them notable for their own article but inclusion here is on two grounds,
  • if they are notable enough for their own page on Wikipedia or,
  • if they are notable with respect to the subject on hand, namely apostacy or leaving Islam.
Notability guidelines in Wikipedia is quite clear on this. That Ali Sina (as a nome de plume) has contributed to a book from a notable source, namely Leaving Islam: Apostates Speak Out and it would seem clear that the word "leaving" and "Islam" to the man in the street means that the author supports or is happy to be associated with the concept of being in the catagory of being a "former Muslim" mean it does not fail WP:LIVING. It passes reliable sources (namely the scope of the book), and the notability in this subject area. We do not need to know the persons name. All we are adding is the name "Ali Sina" i.e. we need not verify his birth certificate but use the authorship of contributions under that name as a reliable source. The catagory does not state that notability must be outside of the field of apostacy only thus someone notable because they are the subject of this catagory itself i.e. it is self-referential to the catagory is still grounds for inclusion. For an alternative view a person who was a self-described atheist if they then contributed to a book on say Christianity and that was their main contribution they would be included in the list of former atheists and I would be quite happy to include them on that ground. Until the catagory description specifically excludes on the grounds on notability solely on this subject of apostacy it is not clear that Ali Sina can be excluded.
My reason for including such a long entry was because so many people have tried to remove the entry without adding comments. I'me happy to cull the text down to say,
Ali Sina (Pseudonym), well-known for being an online critic of Islam who has contributed to a book by Ibn Warraq called Leaving Islam: Apostates Speak Out.
As that removes the Faith Freedom International reference as that is ancillary to the person (the article is not a list of former Muslim web sites). Ttiotsw 05:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article should be renamed to List of ex-Muslims

Because we have other lists like:

So for consistency, we should have this renamed to: List of ex-Muslims. --Matt57 20:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes I agree it would be a better name. Ttiotsw 05:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I decided to be bold and moved the page to List of former Muslims. My reason for choosing former over ex was to maintain consistency with Category:Former Muslims. GabrielF 06:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Weak Support I don't have much opinion on the issue, but it is more consistent to do it that way. Though if you want to move it, it might be a good idea to nominate it at Wikipedia:Requested moves.--Sefringle 03:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

In some respects I think "former" sounds better and would almost favor switching the others to "former." Either way having this as "former" rather than "ex" seems to be only a slight difference, not worth troubling about.--T. Anthony 08:47, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll take back my previous suggestion and agree, lets keep it as it is since the other lists also follow the "Former ___" format. Actually that was a suggestion at a time the list had the name "List of people who left Islam". --Matt57 14:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Statistics

For consistency with the List of converts to Islam article, we should include some statistics on the number of former muslims.--Sefringle 07:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New entry

Please include the gentleman Daveed Gartenstein-Ross into the list of former Muslims. His website and book especially bare testimony to his apostasy. He has articles published as well. I simply am too busy for wikipedia, at the present moment. Thank-you, ladies. :0) Usedbook 05:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem is notability. We can't include him if he is not notable, and the way we were figuring out who is notable is who has an article about them on wikipedia. If he is notable, please find some secondary sources that mention him, and create an article about him, but if not, we cannot include him in this list.--Sefringle 08:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems he is notable. I'll see about creating an article about him.--Sefringle 08:52, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
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