Talk:List of forerunners of punk music

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In your eyes, what was the defining moment that started the pre-punk movement? And what was the defining moment that ended the pre-punk movement? Kingturtle 00:05 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)

I don't think there was a one defining moment for either. There were many antecedents for punk, eg, 1960s punk/garage, Noo yawk noo wave (patti smity, Lou Reed, Velvets, etc), UK pub rock, glam, etc, etc...

00:16 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)

The first proto-punk band was The Velvet Underground just because they started in 1964, but i don't think thaghyjfvchtgct the ending moment can so easily precissed. Probably, the first official moment in punk-rock history, without counting all the shows by all the newyorker bands at the CBGB's, would the release of the first punk album, Horses by Patti Smith which happened even before the release of The Ramones´ first album. Eraserhead 02:48, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
the vu's influence on punk is overrated. keep in mind that they began as an avant garde beatnik band and only moved to the whole Sister Ray type thing a few years later. if you ask me, the MC5 were the most evident early influence. i think that the ramones beat patty smith because her punk-ness is sorta debatable in a lot of respects, but the ramones were without a doubt punk in it's purest form, so they get my vote. Joeyramoney 23:39, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
  • And let's not forget The Sonics. They predate the Velvet Undergound. Clashwho 22:06, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed *UFO from the article page. They were straight forward heavy metal IIRC, I don't recall them being any sort of antecedent to punk, but am happy to discuss quercus robur

The first UFO album is quite different from their later material ; it is quite raw and very similar to acts like Blue Cheer or the MC5. It could definitely be considered a predecessor to punk. Prairie Dog.

This list is subjective and highly debatable. There was no pre-punk movement some groups where considered as pre-punk ex-post. But IMO if The Who qualify clearly as pre-punk what makes Roxy Music or David Bowie pre-punk ? Was J.S. Bach a pre-jazz musician ? Ericd 12:07 5 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Hmmmm... It would be fair to regard it as a List of bands cited by prominent punk musicians as major early influences, maybe. And as for Bach, well, not really. He was traditional. Hayden, now he was pre-punk: big influence on Mozart, and Mozart was one seriously radical boy in 1788. Tannin
Roxy Music and David Bowie defianetly belong on the list as both were very big influences on the first UK punks, including the Sex Pistolsquercus robur
I don't think a "list of bands cited by prominent punk musicians as major early influences" could be encyclopedic. A more interresting question is why is the question of pre-punk often raised while nobody cares about pre-hard-rock bands. I thinks its because nature of the punk movement has changed with the Sex Pistols. As a reader of Rock & Folk between 1974 and 1980 (the best French rock magazine at the time) I remember that some articles (by Phillippe Manoeuvre among other) qualified some Americans groups as punk as early as the end of 1975.
One of these bands was Television (band) who played a sophisticated music that was very different from the UK band style.
The punk movement begun in the UK in 1976 and the "punk year" was definitely 1977.
Since this time it seems there is still a important difference between what was or is punk oe pre-punk in Europe and in the USA. By reading Kurt Cobain notes, he is very fuzzy about what is punk or what is heavy metal, a difference that is obvious to many european.
Ericd 21:30 5 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I simply don't believe that Roxy Music were an influence on the Sex Pistols, other than a negative one.
I'm reminded of the story of a conversation between Freddie Mercury and Sid Vicious.
"'Ere, is it true you lot are trying to bring opera into pop music?"
"Well, Mr Ferocious, dear, we're doing our best."

A quick search made clear to that Johnny Rotten says he was influenced by Bowie. And some said that the guitar style of Mick Ronson had some influence on punk guitarists... IMO any good guitarist could be viewed as influential for many punk guitarist most of them were very limited ;) (that was obviously not the case of Tom Verlaine) Ericd 21:51 5 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Influence of Bowie I can just about believe; influence of Roxy I definitely cannot! Deb 21:54 5 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I don't believe in any influence of Roxy to. And John Cale ? because he produced Patti Smith ? Ericd 21:57 5 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I'd point you in the direction of Jon Savage's definitive history of the Pistols, England's Dreaming, which is very much about placing the band within a social and cultural context. Roxy Music (and glam in general, but Roxy especially) are refered to as antecedent to punk rock, and were certainly an influence on Malcolm McLaren. Remember that the early UK punk movement was very much rooted in the 'art school' scene (as were Roxy). Punk didn't just emerge out of a cultural void however much it liked to pretend to be about rock n roll's "year zero"...
As for John Cale, yes, he's definately an antecedent as well, not only for producing Patti Smith, but because he was part of the Velvet Underground who of course have clear links to punk. quercus robur 23:49 5 Jun 2003 (UTC)
PS. As for Lydon/Rottens influences, there was the notorious incident wherin he was interviewed on the radio early in the Pistols career and cited his influences as including Captain Beefheart, Van Der Graaf Generator and Can (band). McLaren was furious as it showed that Lydon was actually musically literate and not simply the ignorant lumpen yob that Mclaren liked to pretend that the band were (Sid Vicious unfortunately ended up believing his own publicity however...)
I know that Johnny Rotten much more culture than it was supposed to have. But I still wonder about the use of this article in its current form (the talk page is much more interresting). As I wrote before the question of punk/pre-punk make sense for me. Your previous comment is premium material for the Sex Pistols article. But should we also start article like "List of major influences of the Beatles", "List of influence of Detroit Rock bands" ?
Ericd 00:08 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I think it's more about recogising the cultural antecedents of punk rock rather than direct 'influences on', in which case most of the entries seem valid to me (wheras UFO, who I removed, wern't)quercus robur
IMHO, this is like saying that Joshua Reynolds was a "forerunner" of Picasso, just because they both happened to be painters. It seems obvious to me that punk was a rebellion against the values that bands like Roxy Music represented - melodic tunes, clever lyrics, good musicianship, and above all, sartorial elegance. Deb 19:44 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I think you are over-simplifying Deb, as I pointed out Punk was part of a tradition in UK music that included Glam, mod and the art school scene. The Bromley Contingent, who were the earliest fan base of the pistols and the punk avant garde, certainly hung out at Roxy & Bowie gigs (again see Englands Dreaming, well worth borrowing from your library if you want to gain a fuller cultural perspective of what 'punk' was all about). Punk was a reaction against the overblown dinosaurism that was progressive rock, but Roxy certainly wouldn't be considered in the same breath as the likes of Yes, ELP, etc, etc. BTW, the stuff about melodic tunes, clever lyrics, good musician ship etc is something of a smokescreen, for instance, listen to the first Clash album properly, you find all of these elements despite all the hyperbole about not being able to play, etc ;-) quercus robur 22:30 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)


PS. Deb said; "It seems obvious to me that punk was a rebellion against the values that bands like Roxy Music represented - melodic tunes, clever lyrics, good musicianship, and above all, sartorial elegance."
I don't think that is what Roxy primarily 'represented', it was (apart from the sartorial bit) incidental, at least in their early period, which is what I am talking about. They were more about imagination, creativity and breaking barriers (as well as explicitly recognising their own antecedents- check out the innner sleeve of the first Roxy Music album). Don't forget that Brian Eno used to describe himself as an 'anti-musician' quercus robur 22:35 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Quercus why don't we get rid of this inflating list that will obviously grow up until it includes Elvis Presley, Bill Haley & the Comets, Chuck Berry and John Lee Hooker... And try to bring the best of the talk page in some serious article about the origins and influences of punk ? Ericd 22:39 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I'm sorry if it's coming across like this is really really important, but I've been a fan of Roxy Music since 1972, and I just can't go along with them being influencers of punk. Yes, Roxy would be considered in the same breath as Yes and ELP -- the main difference is that Roxy released regular singles, whereas the other two bands didn't. I well remember going out to buy "Stranded", and my sister going to buy "Brain Salad Surgery" at the same time. As for the Clash, I would consider them New Wave rather than punk. But I admit I'm not an expert. Deb 23:01 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)
To revisit this debate somewhat- for evidence that Roxy Music can be classed as punk antecedents see http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/lastoftheteenageidolsthes.htm quercus robur 10:49, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I disagree that Roxy were prog in the same way that was despised by punk, their songs were tight, consise, had a sense of humour, and were engaged in an ironic discourse with the culture that had preceded them, wheras [[Yes (band)|Yes), ELP etc were about long winded, vacuos displays of virtuosity for virtuosity's sake, noodling guitar solos, swirling capes and concept albums. Can you honestly imaging an 'anti-musician' being put in charge of the synthesisers on Brain Salad Surgery (which I have to admit I quite liked when I was at school... if you check the history page at Yes you'll see I'm actually still a bit of a closet progster...) ??? quercus robur 21:05 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Clash was obviously punk !
Ericd 23:09 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Well, the article on Joe Strummer describes them as "the most musically diverse and overtly political of the original English punk bands". I'd say that leaves room for debate. Deb 16:36 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The Clash & Give Em Enough Rope were defiantely punk. London Calling is considered by many to be the ablum where they metamorphosed into a rock band. I still think in terms of attitude it's 'punk' tho... what about that cover for a start... quercus robur 17:59 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Image:TheClashLondonCallingalbumcover.jpg

This also could be viewed by some as a reference to The Who ?
Ericd 18:53 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The story behind this pic AFAIR (without checking) was that Paul Simonon's bass was playing up and not working properly and he basically just lost the plot and smashed it to pieces. Penny Smith the photographer happened to capture the moment along with a whole reel of other footage. Apparently she hated the picture (she felt it was 'badly composed' (honest!)) but the band loved it and decided to use it for the record cover.
As for the who, they also belong in the list, the pistols used to cover "Substitute", and "My Generation" is also the archetypal punk song before punk, if you see what I mean... quercus robur
I see... Do you want to upload the Ed Sullivan Show performance ?. I can help. I also remenber I had huge flop around 1982 when I asked in an interview to a teenage punk if he knew The Who...

About the photo, this one very well composed but there a lot of fuzzy elements in the backgrounds and that's a evil for a photographer. IMO this add some kind of "punk attitute" to the pic.

Ericd 21:21 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Ericd, I think your point is valid. Maybe you, or some other capable person, could go ahead and start an Origins And Influences of Punk page and pull in any useful stuff from the list page and this talk page. Then the list page could be jettisoned. Sjfloat 16:49 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)
An article would be a good idea, however this would still inevitably give rise to a 'list of' significant bands. I agree this list as it stands could do with a good prune, I've not heard of half the bands mentioned, but asume they are influences on the US development of punk??? However I would still very strongly argue a case that Roxy Music, the Who, Bowie, Velvets, Lou Reed, John Cale, glam rock should be included. quercus robur 21:10 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Actually, looking at the page, it's probably only 'Big Star' & 'Blue Cheer' I've never heard of... And Blue Cheer are listed twice... best go and fix that... quercus robur 21:13 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I've never heard of them to.
Ericd 21:21 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The web is great. have a look at this :
http://www.vickibrennerent.com/bluecheer/index_bluecheer.htm
And listen some sample here :
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/artist/glance/-/156615/104-4511694-7421566
Ericd 21:31 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Birthplace of Punk

Punk was not born in Britain, sorry to say...it's a made-in, played-in American phenomenon. If you're looking for the defining moment that gave birth to British Punk, look up the dates that Iggy & the Stooges performed there and you have your answer. It was seeing the Detroit band that awakened future members of the Pistols, Clash, Damned, et al, to the possibilities of playing music without any real music playing ability. At about the same time or shortly thereafter the first copies of the Ramones' first record made it into the hands of English pre-punks. These two events combined with the economic climate and social rancor to produce Brit punk.

Yes, The Damned were genuine punk, more so than the Pistols, Clash or any other first generation product of the scene. They embodied the fuk-it-all attitude, played the definitive punk anthems...all without the preciousness and PR of the Pistols, whose Anarchy single they beat to the import bins stateside with their New Rose, making it the historic first British import punk record to hit American shores.

So...Detroit, where punk was born. And home of the godfathers of punk, the Stooges and MC5. New York, where punks first official band, The Ramones, happened. Iggy & the Stooges live, and The Ramones on vinyl, brought the sound to Britain. The Pistols gave it a British face & voice, the Damned gave it it's first overseas "hit" with punks on both sides of the pond.

As for the defining moment of Punk's demise...it started dying the minute it was born. You might almost cite Malcolm McClaren's management of the Pistols the death knell, mere minutes after they'd begun. Certainly the US tour did much to kick it's ass...but it was more a steady, if still brisk, devolution into something more radio palatable. Punk died at the hands of demi-punk bands, like The Police, Blondie, The Clash (sorry fans, great band, punk HOFers, but Train in Fucking Vain? Should I Stay or Should I Go? "Seriously, guys, you should go. Go now. And stay gone." Unfortunatly they opted to stay long enough to dump Rock the Casbah on us.)

None of those are "demi-punk" bands. Blondie and The Police were new wave bands, an offshoot of punk that eventually became its own entity (and by the 80s degenerated into pop). Those Clash songs were actually good, even though Combat Rock was a half-assed effort.

Remove *The Monks from list- weren't they a 1980ish novelty band who did that attrocious and sexist piece of rubbish "Nice Legs, Shame About the Face" which was actually some other band under a psuedonm?? unless there is some other important pre-punk band of the smae name I'm unaware in which case I stand corrected... quercus robur 19:16, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The Monks referred to in the article were a 1960s act composed of Americans living in Germany, who were musically along the lines of the Velvet Underground or the Fugs. They qualify musically speaking, although I don't know how many early punks had actually heard them. Prairie Dog

Suicide must be removed from the list they are an 80´s post-punk band so they can´t be ---- pre-punk also. Eraserhead 02:48, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Suicide was an early 1970's pre-punk band, featuring Alan Suicide (Alan Vega) and Martin Rev, and the music was electronic and weird, and not influential on punk in music so much as style and attitude. Suicide is definitely a pre-punk band, trust me, I own one of their only albums.

[edit] Yoko Ono?

how does she relate to punk rock? Joeyramoney 15:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I guess in no way. Brian W 17:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Modern Lovers

I went and added The Modern Lovers to the list because, as it even says in their article, they were certainly forerunners of punk. They weren't the same as Jonathan Richman and the Modern Lovers (as that band was basically a backing band for Richman's work). Jonathan Richman was certainly inmportant to the punk music, at least as the leader of the Modern Lovers, so I think 'Jonathan Richman and the Modern Lovers' probably still works as well. Vter4life 06:03, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

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