Talk:List of fictitious Jews

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on July 27, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents

[edit] Jewish?

--Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 10:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Is anything said about her anywhere? If not, she can't be listed. Michael 00:38, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jesus

There needs to be some sort of consensus made over whether or not we consider Jesus Christ to be on the list or not, instead of just having him constantly added and removed. OkamiItto 05:56, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

There probably needs to be some discussion about whether we consider him fictitious or not, as well. And whether we should add Moses, Adam, David and all of the others. Perhaps they should go int Jewish Superheroes?RolandR 01:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The problem with that is the same conflict is within that list as to whether Jesus belongs there or not. Personally, I would put him on both the lists - that, or possibly combine the lists into one, and then put him, along with other Biblical characters, under a new heading within the page. OkamiItto 02:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
On a fictional page? Many religious people would be offended... Michael 03:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
So? This is an encyclopedia, not a make-sure-people-don't-get-offended-opedia. You give information, and if people are offended, that's their problem, not the truth's.OkamiItto 06:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and calling him fictitious is not encyclopedic either, now is it? Proof cannot be provided either way. Michael 00:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

But doesn't his existence in a work of literature make him fictional? Henry Ford, J. P. Morgan, Evelyn Nesbit, and others are clearly real people, but in the context of the novel Ragtime, they are fictional characters. SquidsWeB 03:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but they shouldn't be on a list of fictitious characters (and if they are somewhere, you should remove them...). I mean, I could write a book about you in a fictitious setting, it wouldn't make you fictious. Well Drawn Charlie 19:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

True, but your depiction of me would be. SquidsWeB 14:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

So do we add every real Jew who has ever been depicted in a work of fiction? Albert Einstein and Benjamin Disraeli come to mind.--20.138.246.89 12:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, if we started putting every real Jew who has ever been depicted in a work of fiction on here, we'd have to put, like, "Albert Einstein" in "Whatever", which would just get stupid, and would probably give people the wrong idea (like, "Wait, but...I thought [whoever] was real...). Well Drawn Charlie 15:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name of this list

Is this a list of "Fictional Jews" or perhaps even less ambiguous, "Fictional Jewish characters" or alternatively, "Jewish characters in fiction"? I recommend you give further consideration to your use of the word "fictitious", which strikes me as vague and hence inaccurate for this encyclopaedia context. The entire matter of "Who is a Jew" (fictional, fictive, and fictitious -- as well as actual) is such a problematic and sensitive topic, fraught with contention, that it requires scrupulous use of language. -- Deborahjay 09:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, okay, good point. If you think the wording is wrong, you ought to edit it! Well Drawn Charlie 15:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Redirects & Jesus

It got reverted back, but either the "List of Jewish Superheroes" article should be turned into a redirect here, or this should redirect there. It's silly and pointless to maintain two lists, so that changes need to made in two places.

It'd also be great if some heroic Wikipedian could go through this list and see if they can insure that everything actually belongs. Some of these entries look a bit shaky; I wouldn't be suprised if they were added in error.

Also... Jesus?! I realize that there are some who believe the proof of Jesus's life to be shaky at best, but that's a big difference between claiming he was fictional. This is no less true for most non-royal people before well-kept records. Wikipedia and most scholarly places give ancient people presented as people the benefit of the doubt on existing. This should be a no-brainer.

(To elaborate some more, take Homer for example. Perhaps he really did exist. Or maybe he did exist, but he wasn't blind and other tales of his life are untrue. Or it's entirely possible that there was one person who wrote the Illiad and the Odyssey, but wasn't known as "Homer," and only became referred to as Homer by later generations accidentally. Lastly, it's possible that there never was a Homer, and later generations simply falsely attributed the poems to one person. In the first three cases, there's still a "real" person being referred to as Homer. But even in the fourth case, where the attribution is simply wrong, it's still not "fiction." It's just incorrect, just as Aristotlean physics is wrong, not fictional. Now consider that there's considerably more supporting evidence for Jesus than Homer. It isn't even a debate.) SnowFire 02:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dr. Zoidberg

I'm removing him from the list, seeing as there is no evidence whatsoever that he is jewish. He's not even from earth! The religion of his homeplanet is certainly not Judaism, so unless anyone has proof that he has converted since he came to earth he doesn't belong on this list.--Grobgeld 22:20, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fox Mulder

I have removed Fox Mulder. As stated in his article, 'His ethnicity and religious affiliation are never directly disclosed', and there have only been hints that his is Jewish. In the episode 'Conduit' (I think), he's actually sitting in a church, looking as if he's praying. Sergeant Snopake 11:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

What are the hints, exactly? I know that Duchovny's father is Jewish, so perhaps people may have run these two together (Duchovny and Mulder). I really haven't seen a tremendous amount of the show, so I don't know... Michael 03:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
(Revision as of 06:51, 9 July, 2006)
His ethnicity and religious affiliation are never directly disclosed, but there are several hints that he is supposed to be Jewish, as in the episode "Kaddish." Also, in "Drive," while taken hostage, Mulder is asked, with some contempt, if his last name is Jewish, to which he answers, "It's Mr. Mulder to you, you peanut-picking bastard." There is also a box of passover matzo on top of the fridge in his home. David Duchovny has said that he considers Mulder to be Jewish.
(current revision - 6:30, 24 July, 2006)
His ethnicity and religious affiliation are never directly disclosed, but there are several hints that he is supposed to be Jewish, as in the episodes Kaddish (4x12) and Drive (6x02). David Duchovny has said that he considers Mulder to be Jewish.
I've included both, because there's some more info in the 9th of July version that has since been removed. Sergeant Snopake 11:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misleading

'This list is comprised of fictitious people/characters who are portrayed as Jewish, or are assumed to be Jewish, in some cases simply because they have a name commonly found among Jewish families.'
Who else thinks that's kind of dumb? Spike Spiegel was listed, removed, and then re-listed with the edit summary category says "people/characters who are assumed to be Jewish, in some cases simply because they have a name commonly found among Jewish families" Spiegel is a Jewish last name - perfectly fair, but there is no other evidence (aside from his primary weapon) to suggest that he is Jewish, especially as the producers of Cowboy Bebop said they chose the name Spike Spiegel because "it sounded cool.". Shouldn't it really just be a list comprised of people who are actually, verifiably Jewish? I mean, supposing someone comes on here, sees Spike on the list and thinks 'Well, he must be Jewish then, Wikipedia says so', although it's actually nothing more than speculatory information. Sergeant Snopake 12:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. That's why I removed him - I think that we need to change this list to have less of a speculation element to additions.OkamiItto 12:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Assumed to be Jewish, in some cases simply because they have a name commonly found among Jewish families

Not a good idea. As the jewfaq states, you cannot tell whether people are Jewish from their surnames. This statement should be removed, and only characters with a citaition to prove their Jewishness should be added. I will start work on trying to get citations for everyone. Well Drawn Charlie 17:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

Well, so far I've referenced all I can for the TV and Literary characters, and put up Citation needed temps on the ones that I don't know about (the ones without either are characters that have been marked down as Jewish on their own articles), however, I'd like to just ask about certain characters who seem to be almost certainly Jewish, but I can't find any citations for them on the internet. These characters are:

  • Ari Gold - went to a Jewish fraternity, and seems to be Jewish, but I can't find any resounding evidence that he is.
  • Max Cohen - almost certainly Jewish, especially seeing as the film is written by a Jew, but the same problem as above.
  • Lisa Cuddy - It states on her article that she is 'presumably Jewish' because: a menorah can be seen on her desk, and House has wisecracked about her using JDate. Well, I don't know why that would be in the series if she wasn't Jewish. On the other hand, I have a friend who owns a menorah and is not Jewish, so...
  • Daniel Deronda - Doesn't say he's Jewish on the article (and I can't find anywhere else that says he is), but it doesn't say he isn't. Seeing as the book's got all this Jewish stuff in it, I thought I'd put Deronda on here.
  • Flora Hamburger Blackford - I'm almost 100% sure it said she was Jewish in the book, but I can't find a citation any where, and I don't have the book.
  • Yossel Reisen - Flora's nephew. Same applies.
  • Charles Schine - On allmoviephoto, it quotes him as saying that he has "All kinds of guilt" because his background is both Catholic and Jewish. Can anyone shed anymore light on this? Should he even be on here at all?
    • In the movie Derailed, Jennifer Aniston asks Clive Owen (as "Charles Schine") why his middle name is Christopher, because "isn't Schine a Jewish name?" (I guess Jenn knows her stuff). Schine says his father was Jewish and his mother Catholic. But I don't think Schine meets notability criteria. There've been plenty of random film characters who are Jewish. Heck, from last fall, you could include the whole cast of In Her Shoes, Munich, The Squid and the Whale, Bee Season, Everything Is Illuminated, and so on.... Mad Jack 07:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Artie Ziff - Surely Artie Ziff's Jewish! But I can't find a citation.

Thanks! :)

I've given a citation for Daniel Deronda, from a standard reference work that describes him as "a Jew, central character".--Runcorn 22:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh, thank you! I see it now; I missed it before because it wasn't in the form of reference that I'm ued to. Well Drawn Charlie 22:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I've tidied it up and added an online ref. Also, the article does say "Deronda goes to meet his mother in Italy, where she is on her deathbed. She explains that she was the daughter of a rabbi, and forced to marry another religious Jew, despite her hatred for her Jewish roots; Daniel was a product of that union." so both his parents were Jewish.--Runcorn 22:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Ah, I thought that might be how it was going to end up. At the time, I searched for 'Jewish' with the find tool, and as it didn't come up with anything (though, it's always been a bit temperamental - or perhaps I typed Jewsih, or something, I don't know), I just thought 'Meh. I'll put a note on the talk page.' Well Drawn Charlie 22:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

One more thing:
Irene Adler's reference seems to be nothing more than fan writing. I don't remember anything about her being Jewish in the books, and it says nothing about it on her article. I'll leave her up there for 24 hours; if no argument is made in that time, I'll remove her. Well Drawn Charlie 23:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Removed her. Well Drawn Charlie 23:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
My gosh, you removed her 24 hours to the minute from the time you first posted your message! I'm impressed. Mad Jack 07:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! Well Drawn Charlie 15:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spider-Man

I added him - tentatively - with a reference that mentions that everyone at the Marvel Comics staff always considered him Jewish. Even though there's nothing beyond that, I think it's at least worth mentioning in the list... Mad Jack 07:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm thinking that perhaps he shouldn't be on the actual list, just as a note at the end of 'Superheroes of Jewish ethnicity (only)'. Well Drawn Charlie 15:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I've changed the formatting now, so I think that'll be fine. Well Drawn Charlie 11:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I've decided to remove Spiderman, because, seeing as there's no proof that he is actually Jewish, it seems misleading and wrong to have him on here. Feel free to revert me if I'm wrong. Well Drawn Charlie 19:37, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, I don't see why we would remove him. If his creators or original writers thought of him as Jewish, why shouldn't we state so on this page? (I don't think the entry was misleading, because that's all it said, quoting the source) Mad Jack 19:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
It's just Paty Cockrum's word for it, though, that the creators and original writers thought of him as Jewish. Basically, maybe it should be mentioned on the list that he is considered Jewish by some, but I just feel that to have him on the list, when he doesn't have an actual reference and it's just somebody's say-so, is incorrect. Well Drawn Charlie 21:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

The question is whether Paty Cockrum passes WP:RS; it seems a good source to me.--Runcorn 21:28, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that is the question, at least, certainly not the only question. Spiderman being Jewish is not Verifiable. The editorial staff worked off the belief that he was Jewish, that doesn't mean he is. Well Drawn Charlie 21:39, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Right, but we're not saying that he was Jewish. We're just saying that the editorial staff that created/worked on him believed him to be Jewish, and that is verifiable and notable. Mad Jack 22:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Then he belongs on the List of People Who Are Believed To Be Jewish. Or start a sub-section of people who are believed to be Jewish within this list, but as it stands, Spiderman/Peter Parker is not officially Jewish. It would have to be either explicitly mentioned in the story, or Marvel would have to verify him as Jewish. However, this current source is only speculation and personal opion, which is certainly notable, but I think you can agree, it does not belong on a list of Official Fictitious Characters who are Jewish. As I say, I have no objection to you starting a sub-section within this list. Well Drawn Charlie 22:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'd imagine that a list of fictitious Jews, unlike a list of real Jews, would include people believed to be Jewish by those who created them, etc. or even by a majority of fans or readers Mad Jack 22:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree there. Definitions and standards of proof can't be the same for fictional characters as for real prople.--Newport 23:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, no, because a person's opinion doesn't make it fact. Also, read what Paty Cockrum says; "the Marvel Comics editorial staff always worked off the belief that he was Jewish." The key word here is belief. Paty Cockrum doesn't say that everyone in Marvel thinks Spiderman's Jewish, or that when she was working on the comic he was Jewish, and certainly not that the creators of Spiderman (Stan Lee and Steve Ditko) thought of him as Jewish, but that they (the editorial staff) believed, for themselves, that he was Jewish. Because of this, I don't think we can really add him to the list of fictitious Jews, because he isn't a fictitious Jew, at least, not until the comics, Stan Lee, or Steve Ditko says he is. As I say, maybe this should come under some sort of sub-section (List of Believed Fictitious Jews?), which I think is the best solution as it keeps the information that Spiderman is considered by some as Jewish, but that he is not officially. Well Drawn Charlie 23:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Hard to say what's "official" specifically because it is fiction. But if that's the section you think would be a good solution, go for it. Mad Jack 23:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Okay then, I'll start it up! :) Well Drawn Charlie 23:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Importance??

I'm new to this wikipedia thing but i would like someone to explain to me the relevance/importance of this article. I see it was has been previously nominated for deletion and i agree with this. In my opinion it bears no importance and should be removed. I am considering nominating it again but i would like to hear other opinionsBella vista 16:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, lots of good points were made on the deletion discussion itself, for instance, "A list of this sort can be an extremely useful reference for a broad group of people concerned with comparing various depictions of Jews in fiction", "This article has existed for very nearly a year and has been edited by many people; it is clearly of interest to more people than most articles", "relevant to the topic of media portrayals of Jews", "As a regular non-registered wikipedia user, I can't tell you how much I hate it every time I find a catagory I'm looking up is up for deletion", "We have an article on Jews. This list is a sublist of Lists of Jews", etc., etc. I could go on. Basically, now that the 'citations needed' has been put in, and a lot of referencing done, I do think that the list is a very helpful one. And, after all, there is the List of fictional Catholics and the List of Hispanic superheroes, in fact, just look at the List of fictional characters for all sorts of lists like this. Well Drawn Charlie 15:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merged in 15-20 names from "List of fictional Jewish LGBT characters"

That list was nominated for deletion and the result was "merge to this list". So I have. However, I have done this as a clerical exercise. Citations will be required where relevant. Fiddle Faddle 08:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

What I realise I have not done is make any reference to the fact that these at LGBT fictional characters. One was of doing this would be to add a ref to that effect. It was considered important enough to create a list originally, but not important for a stand alone list. Frankly I have no feelings about this either way, but I thought I should mention it as soon as I remembered. Fiddle Faddle 11:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, neither do I have any important feelings either way, but I've made it so that all their references include the fact that they're gay, so...whatever. Well Drawn Charlie 14:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Luna, Wiccan, and speed

I don't think they really deserve to be on here, as their parents were only half Jewish on their father's side. If someone disagrees with me, feel free to re-add them. Well Drawn Charlie 17:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why the split?

Why is there a distinction between Superheroes of the Jewish religion and those of Jewish ethnicity? I tis not a distinction made in the rest of the list, or indeed anywhere else on Wikipedia.--195.26.63.42 13:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

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