Talk:List of fictional characters on the autistic spectrum

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 5/8/2005. The result of the discussion was keep.
Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 5/9/2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Will this page last? cornince 1441 6 Feb 2005 CST

I think it is much more likely to last if the list only included people who were identified in the piece of work or by the author as being autistic. If someone was added to the list because it is the personal opinion of a Wikipedian that the person exhibited autistic traits, but was not identified as autistic in the piece of work or was not identified as autistic by any of the work's creators, then it would constitute POV and original research, which might get this page in trouble. Q0 14:45, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Anonymous user adds, June 13 2005:

It will now I edited it into 'known' and 'suspected'.

I really think the external link to fictional characters needs to be removed. The page is calling Lisa Simpson and Alex Keaton spectrumy -- this is very pop-y, and very misleading, particularly if the author is not going to list the traits he/she sees represented in each individual.

Contents

[edit] VfD results

This article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. For details, please see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of fictional characters on the autistic spectrum. -- BD2412 talk 05:10, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Secret Agent by Joseph Conrad

I removed the following content from this list:

The character of Stevie, in Joseph Conrad's novel, The Secret Agent is a classic example of an autist from fiction, showing how autism existed in the popular imagination long before Kanner named it. Stevie, though literate, is unable to work, as his absence of 'theory of mind' makes hime easily led, he is disorientated by noise and crowds (sensory overload), interprets figurative language literally, becoming highly distressed. His chief occupation is drawing circles with a pair of compasses (repetitive, stereotyped behaviour). His brother-in-law, Verloc, the secret agent of the title, exploits Stevie's vulnerability by asking him to plant a bomb, which explodes prematurely in Greenwich Park and kills him.

Clearly, Joseph did not describe the character as autistic, and I can't find any indication that there has been academic speculation of his autism. I'd be happy to have it back if some references can be provided. Pburka 20:59, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What about using the discussion page for POV?

The list seems incredibly short considering the number of movies containing characters showing traits of autism. The first one that comes to mind is "Forrest Gump" based on a book written by Winston Groom. Gump, Mr. Groom once stated, was based on a man he heard about living near him in the south. The man was an idiot savant. He had no other skills than he could play the piano beautifully. For everything else the man needed a caretaker to do for him. Although Mr. Groom never says that he made Gump out to be autistic it is obvious that Gump was written with autistic traits. (Autism has been classically misdiagnosed as retardation many times.)

And can I state that many characters in film are based off of a writer's first hand experience of people even if they don't know the person's diagnosis. Mike Judge in his movie "Office Space" used a character obsessed with his red stapler. The character's name escapes me but Mr. Judge based his character's tendencies off of a fellow co-worker he once knew.

Can there be an active discussion on this page of fictional characters? Many creators won't state in their work if a character is autistic, but the character may be based on a real person who is. A prospective list of fictional autistics may lead to finding evidence that a creator did have autistic traits in mind.

I think it could be a good idea to have a separate section of this page that is something like, "Fictional characters that were based on autistic people". I think I heard somewhere that the Mr. Bean character was based on an autistic person; I would encourage adding him to the list if a reference can be found. As for staying NPOV, I think it would be better to say something like "Forest Gump was based on an autistic person" instead of "Forest Gump was autistic". Q0 07:09, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Some new additions

  • But i don't remember actor/character names. 'The Wizard', and 'The Boy who Could Fly'. 'The Wizard' is a LFA (possibly becuase of upbringing, looks recoverable to HFA) autistic who discovers his savant ability in video games. 'The Boy who Could Fly' is HFA? who wants to fly so bad that he actually gets it, right at the end of the movie.
I assume you're going for Tommy, here? Ambyr 03:07, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I have a suspicion that Cliff Clavin, the mailman from Cheers, was Aspergic. Thoughts?

--ScottAlanHill 06:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Suspicion doesn't matter. This is a list of fiction characters who have been explicitly identified as autistic by their creator, either within the narrative they inhabit or in another venue. Ambyr 02:30, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
  • I'd like to nominate Frederick/Ferdinand in "The Collector" [1] the main character in John Fowles first novel (first published - the original "The Magus" may have been written earlier). First published by Jonathan Cape, 1963; later by Little, Brown and Company, 1963; Triad/Granada 1976; Back Bay Books, 1997. Anyone disagree? Edetic 19:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ripley

Ellen Ripley from the film Alien: Resurrection, described as "emotionally autistic" after her resurrection.

She is described as autistic, but this is not actually correct. Autistics are no different emotionally from neurotypicals. Now, should this reference be kept because the movie identifies her as autistic, or removed because it is wrong? Alister Namarra 19:51, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protection

I noticed that it is extremely common for anonymous users to add speculation to this article. I am considering requesting that this page be protected so that anonymous users who wish to contribute to it would register first, and hopefully would learn about wikipedia's verifyability policies in the registration process. Q0 11:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. Raoul 17:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Napoleon Dynamite?

I very much doubt that Napoleon Dynamite was written to be autistic. Unless someone knows that one of the story's creators actually said this, I think it should be removed. --DearPrudence 19:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Please be WP:BOLD and remove it. This article has been a magent for speculation and original research. Pburka 18:26, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, removed. --DearPrudence 01:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A middle of the road idea

How about creating a separate page with unconfirmed possible autistics in literature. This way we can have a list of people who exhibit autistic tendencies. Einstein is stated as having possibly been autistic. Why couldn't literary characters predating the diagnoses of autism also be autistic, just like people were.Sith Lord 13 03:36, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The reason that People speculated to have been autistic can say that Albert Einstein is speculated to have been autistic is that there are references that specify who has done such speculation. This article used to have separate sections for characters identified as autistic by the authors and those speculated to have been autistic by fans. The speculative section almost got the whole article deleted (see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of fictional characters on the autistic spectrum) and the speculative section was removed as a result. Q0 22:20, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, well thats why it would be a seperate page that would say that most of this is speculation. There are some characters in lit who seem very autistic but no one cares enough for such speculation to be bothered with making it official. There could be a huge heading at the top that says that these are not confirmed. Sith Lord 13 20:26, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

If you create a new article for fictional characters speculated to be autistic then I would not mind. However, I would expect it to be deleted. Wikipedia has a policy against original research and all information in the wiki must be based on outside references. If a Wikipedian forms a judgement that a fictional character is on the autistic spectrum and adds that person to the article on that basis, that would be publishing original research. If someone outside Wikipedia has done speculation involving a fictional character, and Wikipedia reported it, then that would not be original research, but speculation does need to be separate from fictional characters described as autistic by their authors. Wikinfo has an article that allows speculation at http://www.wikinfo.org/wiki.php?title=List_of_fictional_characters_on_the_autistic_spectrum but I'm not sure that something like this can be accepted on Wikipedia. Q0 02:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I was just looking for something like that, I'm going to check it out now.Sith Lord 13 07:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confirmation, please

Reginald Barclay
Charlie Gordon from Flowers for Algernon
Sherlock Holmes
I remember reading somewhere that these people were on the autistic spectrum, but don't remember where. They made sense so I'm posting them here in hopes someone can confirm them either way.Sith Lord 13 07:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle died in 1930 (according to the wikipedia article). Autism was not described until 1943, so he cannot have described Sherlock Holmes as autistic. Raoul 11:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but just because Sir Arthur Conan Doyle did not specifically state so, does not mean he does not have autistic characteristics. And Einstine was never officially diagnosed as autistic but he is on the list of people with autisim. Is there any reason that the same could not be with Mr. Holmes. Art imitates life my dear Watson, When Reed Richards was first written, he exhibited the same qualities he does today, but it was quite some time before someone came out and said he had some autistic characteristics.Sith Lord 13 23:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

This article is to list characters identified by the author as being autistic. However autistic a character is they do not belong on this page unless they were identified by the author as autistic. I'm almost inclined to delete every single unreferenced name on the list at the moment as this is currently a very poor article, the only thing that is stopping me doing this is that it would have only 2 or 3 names left. Raoul 16:34, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think there would be anything wrong with having 3 names left. Then the article would basically be a stub which exist on Wikipedia. I think deleting all unreferenced entries is a good idea. Q0 03:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Why is it only ones identified by the authors? Why should literary characters be held to a higher standard then people? If professionals who assess them find them to be autistic, even if it wasn't the authors original stated purpose, they should be put on the list. Characters from books don't always end up the way the author intended them to, atleast when written by a skilled author.Sith Lord 13 00:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Albert Einstein is in a list of people speculated to have been autistic. He can be there because that is a list of people speculated to have been autistic, not people known to be autistic. Einstein would never be allowed on the list of autistic people. In addition, Einstein can only be on the list of people speculated to have been autistic because there are noteworthy references that specify who has speculated him to be autistic. Just like the way confirmed autistic people and speculated autistic people are in separate articles, if speculated fictional autistic people are to be included in Wikipedia, it would have to be in a separate article. However, speculation of actual people is much more common than speculation of fictional characters so I think a new article about speculated fictional characters would fail notability. Q0 03:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Legion (Marvel Comics)

In regard to the following entry on the list: Legion (Marvel Comics) [2], I did a text search for the words "autism", "autistic", and "Asperger" on the document, and I did not find those words. Could the quote be pointed out to me that explicitly states that the character has been described as being on the autistic spectrum by the author? Q0 03:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I just looked threw and apparently its not. Could someone please add it in there, as I don't have time to do so.

Unless, you meant on the page I referenced in which case "Eventually, Charles began to take his most active role ever with the X-Men by accompanying them on missions. During this time, Gabrielle requested Charles’ help in treating her son David, the powerful psionic mutant known as Legion who suffered from multiple personality disorder. Charles learned that David was his child, and helped him emerge from his autistic condition."Sith Lord 13 03:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I will remove the disputed tag. Q0 03:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] removed from the list

I have removed several entries from the list because they are unsourced. Some of the entries are probably valid, but I still cannot include them because I don't know which are valid and which are original research. If anyone can find a way to reference the below entries, feel free to add the respective entries back to the list. The list includes the entire list at the time I cleaned it up - including about 7-10 that I did not delete. Q0 19:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

May I ask why Legion is on the list, as I have posted above proof that he qualifies thew list.Sith Lord 13 22:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Legion is on this list because, as I stated, the list I pasted here to the talk page includes the entire list at the time I did the cleanup, including the entries I did not delete from the article. Q0 09:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I didn't read it very carefully and thought that this was the list of people who either you took off or you felt shoule be taken off. (That should teach me not to open my mouth at 3o'clock in the morning.) Sith Lord 13 07:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stated by author

If we remove this simple clause from the page we cut a lot of the red tape tying our hands, and allowing us to add in persons who have been deemed, by experts, to be autistic, instead of just thoes who were statated to be so by authors. Sith Lord 13 22:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not just the assertion on the article, it is also Wikipedia policy that is holding the "red tape". About a year ago, the article was nominated for deletion because people have been using the article for speculation. Then it was nominated again yesterday for the same reason. If you insist on adding speculation to this list, I'm sure it will only encourge more deletion nominations. If you want an article about fictional characters speculated to have been autistic by experts, then you should make a new article for that. Real confirmed autistic people and real speculated autistic people are divided into separate articles, so if you want separate articles for speculated fictional characters, you would need to create a new article for that. Q0 09:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Sith Lord 13 to some extent. Dropping the "stated by author" requirement wouldn't avoid any red tape, as all entries must still be verifiable and referenced. However I don't see any reason that fictional characters who have been identified as autistic by academics, for instance, couldn't be included. If an English literature/psychology professor publishes a peer reviewed paper hypothesizing that Captain Ahab was an autistic savant I'd be happy for that information to be included on this page. Pburka 23:04, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Unless you can find any peer reviewed paper hypothesising that a character was autistic I don't think there is much to discuss. If someone does have some examples then I may favour a seperate section (we can't drop the "stated by author" completely, it is the only thing which really causes any current additions to be worthwhile) on characters speculated as autistic by experts, but until then I think it should be kept as it is. Raoul 15:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I think if we are going to include fictional characters that were speculated to have been autistic by people other than the authors (but where the speculation is referenced) then I think it should be done in separate articles, like the way list of autistic people and people speculated to have been autistic are in separate articles. This article has been nominated for deletion twice because some editors have been adding unreferenced entries. Adding speculative entries to this list will likely encourage more deletion nominations. Q0 15:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Just a question.From when the othors are "experts"?They can very easaly have reeten ther script wrong,it stil fiction.We schouldn't just stick to what the othor says.I beleave that the opinion of an expert has more wait in this.We could begin speculating if the othors wear misimformed or not on the isue.I mean the othors pov is not more corect then the pov from any average person,since is about diagnosis corectness that is about here.--Pixel ;-) 23:11, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
It's spelt "author". Characters are what the author defines them as being. The character may not really seem autistic or they may actually behave like someone with a different mental disorder (or indivuals who are differently neurologically atypical), but imo they are still autistic if that is how the author ment to write it. You can't really diagnose someone from a description in a book, but you can write a description in a book on the basis that the character has the condition. Raoul 18:46, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
If there are references that say that people have criticized a work on the basis that a character identified as autistic did not behave as an autistic person in the work, or if people feel that autism was in some way not portrayed correctly, then it can be stated in the article that some people criticized the work for labeling a character as autistic. Q0 18:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes,but still,the author,is not suposed to now on the isue more then you.It's not about science fiction here,the label autistic is suposed to be a corect one.I don't see why the authors opinion is somewhat special,he's god only in his work,not in the real world.i just read the little intro.The title is clearly generic,and the intro declares that is only about the authors description.That's a nice example of the kind of internal contradiction that i'm coumplaining about.--Pixel ;-) 21:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok,i had a look on the sisters articles of this one.I see that you try too make a parralel betwen diagnosed real peopol,and fictional peopol,"diagnosed" by ther authors,since a real diagnosis by a real expert is not posible.Still i'm not in favor of "the author is god in his world,so he's write" or something like that.I had in mind something like,the experts have a consencus (article on peopol/fictional that have it) vs the experts have no consensus (article on peopol/fictional that are speculated to have it).If you presented like that,the deletionists have no case.--Pixel ;-) 22:20, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I found this an interensing website. I remember a mystery novel where a teenager, probably a girl, in an institution was thought to have Aspergers. I didn't see anything like it in the short list of literature. If characters are described by the author or in reliable and verifiable independent sources, such as journal articles, published book reviews, or textbooks of psychology, then it is simple to add an inline citation. Otherwise adding characters because an editor thinks they seem autistic is pure original research, and sets the whole article up for deletion. Find a psychologist who published an article in a refereed journal or in a book from a university press or a major publisher where he says Sherlock Holmes, or Einstein, or anyone else was autistic and you have a leg to stand on. If it is a self-published self-help book, or someone's blog or website, don't bother. Regards. Edison 00:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed unreferenced entries

I had to remove the following entries because they are entirely unreferenced. Q0 17:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

  • "Scrubs" episode "My Roommates" features an autistic boy who is the son of Dr. Cox's high school friend Ron
  • "Cold Case" episode "Saving Sammy" features an autistic boy Brent, who wittnesses his parents murder.
  • "Boston Legal" episode "Helping Hands" features an eccentric attorney who is diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome
  • "The Dead Zone" episode "Heroes and Demons" features an autistic boy who sees everything in a fantasy context and has knowledge of Johnny Smith's powers
  • "Eureka"--Kevin, the son of Allison, is an autistic savant who used his impressive memory to recreate a complex equation on the sidewalk with a piece of chalk
  • "The Shield"--Vic Mackey has children with autism
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