Talk:List of fictional anti-heroes

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This article was nominated for deletion on December 31, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents 1 awkward title 2 Lucifer 3 Sources 4 Images 5 Hannibal 6 The Devil's Rejects 7 Dante from Devil May Cry 8 V 9 Batman 10 Concerning the disagreements above 11 Duke Nukem 12 Blake's 7 13 Images 14 Why was the PREDATORS remove ?

[edit] awkward title

This page has kind of an awkward title; I think it should be changed to 'list of fictional anti-heroes'. CameoAppearance 15:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

• I agree. I have also added some video game characters, as they belong just as much as the others. There is no Category:Video Game Characters that I could find, so i added one to computer and video game protagonists, as it's mostly the same. --Ifrit 12:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Why do we need the addition of "fictional" or "in fiction" at all? Where else would anti-heroes appear?--User:CWL 13:36, 15 July 2006 (CET)

Sometimes (it's quite rare) actual living people are referred to as anti-heroes in articles, newspapers, etc. It's pretty rare so you're question is completely valid (the old list was simply titled "list of anti-heroes"), but usually it's best to be as clear as possible. --TM 16:50, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Not to be a grumpy old skeptic, but I am not entirely convinced of this. Could you maybe provide an example?User:CWL 04:08, 17 July 2006 (CET)

Usually it's also incorrect usage: John Kerry as anti-hero, Eminem as anti-hero, Colin Powell, the anti-hero. As I said, it's rare, and usually used incorrectly, but occasionally actual people (in politics and entertainment mostly) are dubbed anti-heroes, usually based on public persona. I'm not surprised that someone was unconvinced, but it happens, and adding "fictional" to the title doesn't really have any drawbacks in my opinion. --TM 08:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see what you mean. Another problem would of course be caused by characters in fictional biographies who are based on real characters. Two such rather good examples of anti-heroes I can think of spontaneously are John Wilmot, 2nd Earl of Rochester in The Libertine and Mozart in Amadeus. --CWL 18:20, 1 August 2006 (CET)

Your definition of anti-hero is off. Anti-heroes are not villains or bad characters who lead to good ends. The real definition of an anti-hero is often one who walks away from a battle. Frodo Baggins in the Lord of the Rings is an example of a true literary anti-hero.

Sorry but if there is a "real definition" of an anti-hero it isn't "walking away from a battle". I suggest reading a bit of anti-hero. --TM 18:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Right. Frodo is the classic "reluctant hero". Doczilla 22:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lucifer

This subject is highly interesting, but also very subjective, and therefore the list here is very incomplete. I've got an interesting addition, an "ultimate anti-hero" of sorts, which I would like to throw out here in the Talk page first. My ultimate anti-hero is, of course, Lucifer as depicted in Paradise Lost. I'm not sure if Milton intended to make him an anti-hero, but it sure seemed that way to me when I first read the thing in college. I didn't want to edit this choice into the main page because as an atheist living in the USA, a major source of wikipedia readers, I know only too well how easily this religious stuff sets off flame wars on the internet. People might have problems with me labeling Satan as a "hero," or that I've put him into a list of fictional anti-heroes, etc. But I do believe this character is a perfect embodiment of an "anti-hero" and I feel he should be at the head of the list. What do you guys think? Tren001 14:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Honestly the most important thing is that it's sourced, as long as there's a reliable source saying Lucifer from Paradise Lost is/can be seen as an anti-hero there shouldn't be any problem in adding him to the list. And don't worry, flame wars here aren't very widespread since Wikipedia isn't a discussion forum and there are policies against it. Also, as a sidenote, I rarely see religion strongly influencing articles, the Talk:Evolution page shows how the editors have kept religious objections/manipulations off the article civilly and efficiently. --TM 17:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. I've put good ol' Lucifer into the list, along with a website listing some Romantic-era criticism of Paradise Lost expounding on Satan's role as a hero from such literary luminaries like William Blake, Sam Coledrige, and Mary Shelley's husband! Tren001 02:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

An antihero has to have some redeeming qualities Lucifer being the imbodiment of pure evil has none therfore he is not an antihero. He also fails to meet the cirteria stated at the top of the page. Eno-Etile 01:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You're wrong. The devil has been portrayed sympathetically many times in literature. I'd even go further to say Satan is more deserving of a spot than Patrick Bateman who has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.CyberGhostface 02:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, don't remove Lucifer's section until a consensus was reached. But since sources are cited referring to him as an antihero, thats enough, so deleting him would be a case of WP:NPOV.CyberGhostface 02:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Most refrences to Satan in Literature especially the earlier ones make him a villian and the progentor of evil even more sympathetic refrences don't usually deny that he is the imbodiment of evil. As for Patrick Baetmen I am not familiar with that character so I cannot make any comparison. Eno-Etile 02:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

PLease don't remove my discussion comments, unless that was just a mistake. Furthermore, his mention on the page specifically refers to his role in Paradise Lost, in which he is a sympathetic character. We're not referring to his roles in general.--CyberGhostface 02:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Ya the removal was a mistake if it was me I was having a problem getting my edit to go through might have removed yours when I finally got mine saved. Still the author never intended Lucifer to be a "good guy" or have good guy qualities. I will admit that I never read the book but I did study the keypoints of it, a brife summary, and John Milton in English class. Anyway part of the wikipedia article on the poem does explain and argue against any supposedly noble attributes Lucifer may seem to have.Check under the 3rd paragraph under satan on the Paradise Lost article.Eno-Etile 06:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Those are some theories by people who have read the book based on what what was written. Milton didn't come out and say what the story meant, it was for the reader to decide. You don't think he's an antihero, fine, but others do and a source has been cited so he's going to stay.--CyberGhostface 11:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

This list still hasn't managed to incorporate a single source or external reference, leaving it completely POV and OR, against Wikipedia policies. These are the reasons similar lists have been deleted in the past, such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of anti-heroes. In addition, video games are generally not included in literary/fictional canon, as they are very subjective and not critically reviewed in the same context as literature, film, or even television. At this rate the list will probably continue to grow without any sources being added and eventually be nominated for deletion. Try to provide references or sources for existing examples, or remove them, before adding even more if you want the list to last. Just some advice, and my own opinions. --TM 12:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I disagree completely with your comment on video games. In case you haven't played any recent ones (say, from the past ten to twelve years), most video games tell a story, with often complex characters. Even if it is an interactive story of which your degree of success might depend on your skill or perseverance, most video games have only one ending, or a few endings with very small variations. Should the characters of these stories not be counted because of the way games are reviewed? I think, comparing video games to literature, that playability is equal to readability, and the games story is a moot point. Many books have been made into games, and even vice versa. I feel they belong as much as any other fictional characters. Second, demanding citations for everything is just silly. How would you citate something like this? Is there an official bureau for the listing anti-heroes? Which "source" would "people" find "credible"? Think about it... it is like demanding a source on the statement that most people like candy. Okay, exaggarated example, but you get my drift. As for new additions to the list running the risk of coming out of control... well, it is always modifiable and we can discuss the inclusions to a great degree on this very page. --81.191.14.79 01:19, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm guessing you're actually User:Ifrit who added the section. Please read the official Wikipedia policies on verifiability and original research and you'll see that the notion of asking for credible sources isn't silly, and if you think it is you can take your arguments there. You'll also see on the discussion of the old list's deletion that most people there didn't think it was too silly either. I'm not going to debate for or against the merits of video games; the simple fact is there are critical reviews for most literature and a substantial amount on film and television, but unfortunately not a lot on video games, which hinders verifiability.

As for your question on where to find sources, references can include books, magazines and web sites to name a few. For example, many editions of books will have an introduction, and they may address the nature of the hero, as is the case with A Clockwork Orange for example, where Alex' qualities as an anti-hero are discussed.

If you want a guideline for "which" "sources" "people" "would" "find" "credible", "you" "can" "check" "Wikipedia:Reliable sources". With popular culture the standards for sources are much more lenient, but verifiability with something as inherently subjective as this is still important. It doesn't need to be a government, United Nations, or Harvard document to qualify as a reliable source, but we still need an external source and simply discussing every objectionable addition here would still amount to original research.

I had edited the old list of anti-heroes and thought it was relatively useful and interesting, but it still failed to meet the encyclopedic standards Wikipedia is aiming for. And I think that in its current state, this list suffers from the same problems. Finding sources and avoiding examples where verifiability is difficult/impossible would fix these problems. --TM 16:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I've just added a few sources/examples. Sources are particularly difficult for video games and television. I think that for video games sources can include articles in (online) magazines, but forums and blogs are unusable (which applies to all categories). --TM 17:28, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

I added some images since I though the article was looking a little dull. I tried to use the most iconic examples instead of more obscure or contemporary ones, as well as those which have articles discussing their anti-heroic attributes. Any thoughts on replacing them, getting rid of them etc. can go here. --TM 19:49, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hannibal

I'm not familiar with the books, so I'm just going to ask what qualifies Hannibal as an anti-hero. In the movies he doesn't usually do anything heroic and isnt actually the protagonist. Most heroic actions he takes throught the movies that I can think of were diversions so he could accomplish his own objectives (such as escape from police custody).

Read Hannibal. That's all I say. The movie is much different. In the book Hannibal he is the protagonist, his tragic past is explored and he does one or two heroic things.--CyberGhostface 02:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The Hannibal Lecter article here outlines the character's biography and the second source I just added to the list discusses his classification as an anti-hero extensively. --TM 02:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Devil's Rejects

Regardless of what a review says, how are they anti-heroes? They brutally rape and murder hundreds of innocent people for fun. Despite caring for their own, they display no heroic qualities. --DrBat 00:08, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

They are no worse than Patrick Bateman or Alex DeLarge. The former in question has no human qualities whatsoever. As long as there is a source citing them as antiheroes then they stay on the article. I'm really getting tired of people trying to remove characters from this category and violating NPOV. And "despite caring for their own"? Their selfless love for each other was one of the major parts of the films and seperates them for two dimensional slashers.--CyberGhostface 00:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Then remove Bateman and DeLarge as well. Two wrongs don't make a right.

The Rejects have little to none of the qualities mentioned at the top of the page. They're remorseless mass-murderers who kill for fun. They aren't redeemed, they don't have noble motives, ect. Plenty of villains care for their loved ones; that alone isn't enough. --DrBat 00:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry to be harsh but your opinion, CyberGhostface's and mine have no bearing on whether or not they should be included since there are sources to back it up; leaving it to WP editors to decide and debate in this case would constitute original research. Although I haven't seen the films in question, I'm guessing the characters qualify as anti-heroes not because of redemptive qualities but simply because they are the focus of the films, the same justification is used for others like Shakespeare's Richard III, and the two mentioned above. The term "anti-hero" is a complex term and can be applied to a vast array of characters, regardless of their relative moral reprehensibility. --TM 00:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

That should be clarified in the beginning when it talks about characteristics.--DrBat 01:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

They don't have to display any heroic qualities to be an anti-hero - otherwise they would just be "heros with some downfalls". It has more to do with their role in the context of the plot and less to do with whether they do any "good" deeds at all. The characteristics on the main page are example, not the criterion. - Xvall

[edit] Dante from Devil May Cry

I remaber seeing Dante on the Anti hero list . So why was it remove from the list ? There was sorce from a review .--Ratchetcomand 00:55, 9/14/2006 (UTC)

• The source was a player review, although it superficially looked like an official review (my mistake). Player reviews, like customer reviews, are not valid sources. --TM 19:49, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] V

Somebody needs to add V from V for Vendetta. He is an archetypal antihero.69.9.30.57 03:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

He's already there under comic books. --TM 08:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Batman

I don't think Batman is actually an anti-hero. True he works with a mask and at night and he can be a bit dark, but in the comics he's in league with the GCPD. Furthermore he disapproves of some other masked vigilantes and their more agressive means of handling things - like Huntress and Azrael. He's got this code and he's all noble, and he even risks his life to save villains from being murdered, something an anti-hero would never do. 86.17.163.37 11:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC) (Harley)

Sorry to be curt but your own opinion (and mine) doesn't have any merit in terms of what to include in this article: we have a reliable source claiming he's an anti-hero and that's all that's needed. Second, you don't seem completely clear on what an anti-hero is based on your objections. Third, this has already been argued to death at Talk:Anti-hero when there was a list on the page and Batman was included under the vigilante section, so if you want to see a debate over Batman you might enjoy that. He's staying since we have a source, but if you find a source arguing against a classification of him as anti-hero we can add that it's disputed. --TM 14:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Concerning the disagreements above

The people above discussing who is and isn't an anti-hero seem to disagree on what an anti-hero is. I suggest you figure out exactly what that is. I think it's far-fetched to justify that by what other sources have said so. Anyone can refer to any character as an anti-hero.

Anti-hero is already defined. Although you may think it's far-fetched, verifiability is an important feature which Wikipedia actively seeks out, hence the importance of using reliable sources. You're absolutely right that anyone can refer to any character as an anti-hero, but that doesn't make the assessment correct or suitable for inclusion in this list; using reliable sources is helpful since the classifications are made by (usually) people with knowledge on the subject, and/or reflect established public opinion. Hope that helps. --TM 04:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Duke Nukem

If you don't mind me asking, wouldn't Duke Nukem, a well known video game character, be an anti-hero? I mean he's willing to save the world from destruction but has a lot of flaws such as his love for constant drinking, cigar smoking, gun firing, alien killing and destruction, and womanization of strippers and prostitutes as well as generally arrogant, cocky, and seemingly carefree attitude about things. What do you think?

All you have to do is find a reliable source that describes him as an anti-hero. --TM 15:20, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Here you go:
http://www.gamingworldx.com/news/DukeNukemArrivesonZodiac.shtml
http://www.mediafamily.org/kidscore/chart.asp?ID=3243
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_anti-heroes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Nukem:_Manhattan_Project

Also, 3D Realms website itself calls him an anti-hero as well.

Good enough?

Vgamer101 22:39, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't qualify any as particularly reliable. Wikipedia obviously doesn't cite itself as a source, and the others aren't too substantial/reliable. In future you'll want articles/reviews like this, or including where 3D Realms calls him an anti-hero. I included it in the list with the review already linked. --TM 23:11, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You're right. The ones I gave sucked, but that was because I was too lazy. Just to see if I did any better at finding reliable info, I got two hopefully better ones:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0280617/keywords
http://www.3drealms.com/news/1998/02/duke_nukem_movi.html

The first one is a bit vague but does show that when Duke Nukem is searched for, Anti Hero is one of the keywords that comes up. And that is IMDB talking there.

The second one is an archived news piece from the 3DR website that quotes another now defunct link or website which itself is, as you would put it, may not be reliable. But the fact that 3DR put it there with the "anti-hero" word indicates to me that they agree with the term because they could have easily quoted it and then omitted the term if it wasn't true.

Any better?

Vgamer101 02:23, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Since IMDb has a lot of user-editting with categories, keywords, etc. (I believe, could be wrong though) like Wikipedia it's not considered reliable in this context. And I'm not sure about the second one either, since it's quoted from something called "Metaverse's Sleaze site", which as you pointed out, seems dubious and 3DRealms even disparages it. The main thing is just pulling a quote from reputable, large scale sites like gamespot or ipc (I'm not too sure about video games but those seem the most reputable). Getting sources is just a formality (and with video games it's slightly more lenient) but it helps maintain higher standards, and with obvious cases you can usually find a source pretty quickly. --TM 17:07, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blake's 7

Most of Blake's 7 characters are bitchy outlaws and certainly antiheroes, but I've been modest and only inserted Kerr Avon as the most obvious one. I was surprised not to see any B7 characters on the TV list, considering how much the "bunch of criminals bickering in space" concept influenced later tv sci-fi, notably Farscape and Firefly. I'll give more links for reference if needed, shouldn't be difficult if Google comes up with 27,500 pages with the search string "Avon+antihero".—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Snowgrouse (talk • contribs).

[edit] Images

I know people like to have the images in the article; they make the article more attractive to read, but they're really not necessary. I don't need to see Travis Bickle here when I can go straight to the character's own article page or to You talkin' to me? for this specific image. The images themselves are not discussed in the text and thus by definition they are decorative. If you want a second opinion on this, try Wikipedia:Fair use review and I guarantee you other admins will tell you the same. howcheng {chat} 21:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Your first objection to inclusion of the images hinges on the argument that they are unnecessary, but necessity is completely POV: one could argue all images or even this entire encyclopedia is unnecessary. Your second objection that images are only to be included when the images themselves are discussed rather than simply the subject of the image (if I understand your argument correctly) seems quite inaccurate, since if that were the case only articles concerning notable photographs, portraits, etc would contain images.

This list includes images of some of the more notable and iconic fictonal anti-heroes of each given media, which are the subjects of this article. As such their inclusion falls under WP:FUC #8, specifically the identification of the subject of an article or illustrating relevant points (in this case the "points" are the examples). --TM 22:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct in your interpretation of my comments, and this is entirely in line with the Foundation's stance on non-free images (see [1] for a recent email and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Kat Walsh's statement for discussion). In reality, this has always been part of the Five pillars but has until recently only be laxly enforced. howcheng {chat} 00:21, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why was the PREDATORS remove ?

Why where the Predators remove on the List. It even have a link to prove that the Alien race are Anti Heros . .--Jackbalck23 00:55, 9/14/2006 (UTC)

"showing them as a kind of noble, anti-hero, alien culture" does not specifically call them anti-heroes. "kind of" is weak. Doczilla 23:51, 5 March 2007 (UTC)