Talk:List of dog breeds/Archive 2

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Contents

Some breed corrections/clarifications

Good work on the list Ditkoofseppala :) Just a couple of points I wanted to check::

Is "Otto" an alternative name for the "Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog"? I think the article should be at Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog rather than as a hidden link to Otto, I've listed Otto as an alternative name under "O".

I think until (unless) the name is officially changed we should have our article at Canadian Eskimo Dog. I've put the newer "Canadian Inuit Dog" in brackets after it. There are many more hits on Google for the older name still.

Let me know if these were a bad move for any reason. Regards -- sannse 10:04 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

No, not at all. I'm glad you fixed them, because I was a little at sea on these alternative names which (as you pointed out above with the Parson Jack Russell thing) float about a lot and are far from set in stone sometimes. I went ahead and put them in knowing that if I got it slightly wrong you would probably fix it, which is a good feeling for me.
I had the (I guess) mistaken impression they'd already changed the CED name. With Canada's determined mania for political correctness at all costs, calling anything "Eskimo" these days is mal vu, definitely a Very Bad Thing. I'll search the breed club and the Canadian KC for my own info.
Yes, the Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog is also known as the Otto. I'm quite happy to leave it to you ;-) to sort out a consistent policy on the handling of alternative names, as it's quite a thorny question and you have more experience than I. I still feel very green here and probably will for some time. Ditkoofseppala 18:29 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I've got an e-mail from the Canadian KC you might be interested in, listing the recognised breeds and the provisional (Miscellaneous Class) breeds. I can forward it if you like. They were very helpful, although there was a little "you could have found this yourself" dig ;)
I'll keep adjusting alternative names and hopefully a standard way of dealing with them will evolve. But don't hesitate to fix any mistakes I've made (or let me know of them if you prefer). My being around a little longer is no guarantee of my work - I rely on the Wiki way of copyediting too :) -- sannse 22:47 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Yes, please do forward CKC's list to me at <jjeffrey@seppalasleddogs.com> as that would save some bother. CKC are like that, rather snobbish and snarky. After a titanic two-year effort to get an excellent Russian imported Siberian registered in CKC's Siberian Husky studbook, only in the end to receive a simple "no" and after it was all over a long, unpleasant letter from their CEO with all sorts of info in it that would have been good to know had it been offered a year earlier, along with all sorts of subtle hints that I had been trying to perpetrate a fraud of some sort -- I happily allowed my membership in the Club to lapse and went on to new breed development with a clear conscience. They are truly "dinosaurs" in that organisation.
As you can see, I've been bashing around in here trying to make a little progress. I hope I don't mess anything up irreparably. I keep running into intractable situations that can't be solved in a half-hour's work, such as the Russian Laika breeds. (I've emailed Vladimir Beregoboy for help on that one -- a breeder of Laikas who has a pretty good website about the four breeds.) I find it incredible when enormously popular breeds like American Cocker Spaniels don't even have a stub. I find I have to get over my feelings of "but I don't know enough about that," roll up my sleeves and do my best, trusting in the Wiki system to improve it subsequently if it's manifestly lacking. Works for me.
Sannse, what can we do about photos? Somewhere there has to be a source of public-domain good photos of the various breeds. Otherwise it's a question of somebody going to a big dog show, as you tried to do, or emailing breed clubs one by one -- and you know what they are like! Can you think of something? Another item -- do you mind inserting the table you made into the new pages as they turn up? I'm anxious to work together to whip this area into shape. Thanks! Ditkoofseppala 00:22 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The e-mail is on its way to you.
Your articles look great! I'm not too good at writing articles - I'm better at the sorting, tidying and organising. So I'm happy to keep adding tables as they are needed and do other fiddles - although I do intend to contribute a few full articles on breeds at some point.
Some of the photos I took have turned out OK-ish once resized (see Rottweiler for the first I've uploaded) but they are very blurred in the larger versions and I'm sure I can do better (now I have the camera on the right setting!). There is a big three-day show at Ascot in the first week of September, so my plan is to go and get some better photos then. That should sort out a lot of the more common breeds. The rarer types will be trickier. We may be able to fill in some of those by e-mailing individual breeders. They may be more willing to help than the breed clubs - everyone likes to show off their own dogs :)
By the way - I missed a question you asked about non-logged in edits, I don't think there is a way to sort that I'm afraid. One of the developers might be able to edit the database - but frankly I'm not sure they would have the time. If you are using a private computer it's worth clicking "Remember my password across sessions" as you log in. That minimises the times you are logged out accidentally. Sorry that's not much help. Ask at the village pump if you want to get more advice on this -- sannse 12:37 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Capitalization of dog breed names

On another matter, what is the convention in this area for capitalisation of second and third words of dog names when these are common nouns, as Yugoslavian Mountain Hound??? On the list itself, the policy seems to be mostly to capitalise all three, with some exceptions. However, user Michael Hardy seems to think pages titled as the example just given need to be moved to a name with lower-case initials for the second and third words. A coherent and consistent convention applying both to the master list and the individual pages would seem to be in order, no? Ditkoofseppala 01:36 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Heh! Believe it or not, you have just run up against one of the most controversial and disputed subjects on Wikipedia. Capitalisation has been discussed on talk pages and the mailing lists many many times. And we have never really come to a happy solution. The current policy says, "Unless the term you wish to create a page for is a proper noun or is otherwise almost always capitalized, do not capitalize second and subsequent words". The dispute is over when "otherwise almost always capitalized" applies. Breed clubs, the registries and all five my books on dog breeds capitalise. Other general encyclopaedias don't. I think we should follow the majority here and capitalise. Personally, I think this is a clear case of "otherwise almost always capitalized". But not everyone agrees of course (do we ever?)
Much of the argument has been over bird names where the situation is very similar to ours. The current compromise there is to capitalise but ensure a redirect is available. I think the same should work for us. I've been moving articles as I come across them to fit in with this policy. But, of course, others will move them back at times - all part of the Wiki way!
We need to be careful about whether the second word is actually part of the name or a description - for example: "Azawakh hound", the article title should be Azawakh and hound shouldn't be capitalised in the text. But for Afgan Hound the "hound" is part of the name so I would capitalise. I've been using my books, web searches and Google to try and work out which is correct in each case.
I'm going to continue to standardise to the capitalised version - with redirects to the lower-case version. But I'm prepared to have to argue my case (heh!) a few times on the way. Regards -- sannse 12:37 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the CKC breed list which was in my email this morning. Thanks also for the kind word on the articles. I'm happy to back you up completely on the above issue; breed names are proper nouns and should be capitalised. I've moved the Yugoslavian Mountain Hound page back and fixed the capitalisation - on my head be it, if it starts a war. My personal opinion (if a newbie may have an opinion) is that people who sit there watching for new pages in order to nitpick on matters having nothing at all to do with content would serve Wikipedia much better were they to occupy their time by filling in the massive red-linked lacunae in the body of knowledge! It isn't an encyclopaedia until its content is encyclopaedic, which at the moment is far from the case. OK, it was only started in 2001, but all the more reason that all shirtsleeves should be rolled up for serious work and all shoulders applied to the wheel. Precious minutiae can come later, no? (This may get me pilloried!) Ditkoofseppala 18:22 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes, it will get you pilloried, Ditkoofseppala. But stick with it, and accept my best wishes. Tannin 23:28 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Go on, admit it, you two are the same person really ;) -- sannse

Naaah! It's just that us colonials always stick together! Ditkoofseppala 18:45 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Disambig Barbet needed

Sannse - It's midnite, I'm whacked, and I just discovered that "Barbet" links to a tropical boidie. Disambiguation is your bag -- I haven't the faintest idea how to go about it and am too tired to read and understand the undoubtedly involved and convoluted instructions, just can't RTFM this late. Would you fix it, at your convenience? There's no page for the Barbet doggie at this stage, not even a stub. Tks vy much! :-) Ditkoofseppala 06:12 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Done. No problem :) -- sannse 08:52 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Balkan breeds

Also, another breed name situation I was too tired to mention last nite. FCI has apparently done a "political correctness" name change on the Balkan Hound. Of course they couldn't bother to indicate this on their website and I had to go all the way 'round Robin Hood's barn to work out what had happened. Same FCI number is now "Serbian Hound"; I imagine this is fairly recent and the old name will hold sway for who knows how long, at least to extent that anybody knows or cares about this obscure breed. So I wrote the article as "Balkan Hound" and noted the name change at the end along with the FCI category. Do what you think best with it in the index... Ditkoofseppala 18:42 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes, I remember when I did my list it took me a while to work out that they were the same breed. But I had Balkan Hound as the FCI name, so either I made a mistake or they have changed it very recently. I'll have a look at the list again tomorrow (my turn to be tired, it's just gone midnight here) and think about the best way to deal with this one. I'll try and get a few more tables done tomorrow too. G'night -- sannse 23:11 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I've looked around and think you are right to put the article at "Balkan Hound". I've made "Serbian Hound" a redirect and added it to the list as an alternative name. If the new name sticks we can change them round the other way. -- sannse 19:59 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Good, Sannse. Funny about this multiple names thing; it never occurred to me what a major headache it would prove to be. Thank goodness for redirect pages. BTW, if you want a handy way to track the breed articles I've been doing, I've started a list of them on my user page. If you want to check, you can do so easily by clicking my ID on this talk page. Don't ask me how I decide which breed to do next, 'cause I don't know! I do know this: I'm extremely resistant to doing articles about Terriers so I hope we find someone who revels in the Terrier Group! :-D Ditkoofseppala 21:12 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Unidentified photos

The reason I added some pictures to this page and not to the articles on the different breeds is that I am not 100% sure that I described all pictures (breeds) correctly. I would like to have a "second opinion" after which the pictures can be moved to the article describing the dog breed.

Jurriaan 20:49, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Wonderful! lots of images! You have also encouraged me to start uploading some pictures I took a couple of months ago and hadn't got round to sorting yet. A couple of times we duplicate breeds, but I think we can have more than one image of each breed - especially for varied breeds such as the Dachshund. Of your pictures, I can confirm some of them, but many I'm not sure of - either because I don't know the breed well enough or the photo angle makes it difficult to see (I mean I'm sure you are right about it being a Great Dane, but I can't tell from that end ;)
The untitled "Dog 1" - Looks like a Schipperke to me, "Dog 2" I don't recognise. The one you have as a "Peruvian Inca Orchid", I'm sure is a Chinese Crested Dog
Of the others, I'm almost certain you are right with:
  • Afghan Hound
  • Borzoi
  • Chow Chow
  • English Springer Spaniel
  • Miniature Schnauzer
  • Pug
I think you are probably right with:
  • Ainu Dog (on the list as "Hokkaido")
  • Coton De Tulear
  • Hovawart
  • Keeshond
  • Newfoundland
  • Old English Sheepdog
I'm not so sure of:
  • Dachshund - looks like a wire-haired Dachshund, except it seems very short in the body. Camera angle or regional variation perhaps?
  • Giant Schnauzer - could it be a Standard? Looks a little small for the Giant, although it's difficult to tell for sure.
  • Irish Wolfhound 1 - is that a puppy? It doesn't look quite right.
The rest I wouldn't like to express an opinion on. Sorry I can't be of more help. Regards -- sannse 21:18, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)


Hi Sannse,
Thank you very much for your help. I have moved some of the pictures to the different articles on those breeds. If anyone thinks he/she can identify the pictures from the main article, he/she may move them to the article where taht breed is described.Jurriaan 11:30, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Back to whether to list alternative breed names and common mixes

I think the page should list alternative names--I already added a couple before it occurred to me that probably lots of people have already thought about this and so came and looked here. Drives me nuts when I'm trying to find info about a dog breed and it's not listed in (for example) a book's index, but then if I read every entry in the index, it might be listed under (for example): German Shepherd (Alsatian) when I was really trying to find Alsatian.

So they should definitely be listed alphabetically. As for purebred vs nonpurebred vs recognized, eventually (I assume and hope) people will come here looking for info because they don't have a clue what a "labradoodle" is but their best friend just got one and they want to know.

But whether to simply include a link that goes to the correct page or to do, as you mention, something like Alsatian, see German Shepherd Dog, doesn't matter to me. If someone wants to count dog breeds, I agree that the latter would be more helpful. But--again--back to the question of what counts as a breed, anyway? (e.g., Tervurens and Belgian Shepherds are the same breed in Candada & Britain but different in the U.S.) So maybe such a count would be pointless...

Just some thoughts to ponder and probably beat me up over :-). Elf 05:02, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hi Elf, no beating up here :). I agree the list will be more useful with all alternate names listed. My only concern is the eventual length of the list - my master list (offline) already has 524 separate breeds, and doesn't include Labradoodles yet ;) So with alternative names included this is going to be a long list. But, that said, we can split the list if we need to later (List of dog breeds A-G and so on) and you are right that it will be better with all names listed.
As to format, you can see from the top of this page that I thought of a few ways to layout alternative names. I like the way we have it now because it shows alternative names but without hiding where they link to. It shows at a glance that this isn't another breed, it's a duplicate of a breed already listed so solves the problem of making it look as though there are more breeds than there are. It also ties in with the convention of only linking to each article once. I think it works - what do you think?
Many, many welcomes to the dog breed section. It's great to have you working here. It's not been a very active section recently so anything you do will be a great help. Regards -- sannse 10:12, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Thanks. Makes sense. Although I prefer
because a nested list makes it look like there are additional subelements (more breeds) when in fact it's only a rename. Plus if we add 300 links that are simply renames, having them on separate lines adds 300 lines :-) . Elf 17:16, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Works for me :) I've changed those involved so far and will use that format in future. I think it's a little less easy to read, but suspect that's simply because it's what I'm used to seeing. -- sannse 19:13, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)


Espagneul breed name inconsistency

I reread the text about how breed names were chosen for the list, but I see that we've got "Blue Picardy Spaniel" but "Epagnuel Picard (Picardy Spaniel)"; since we also have "Pont-Audemer Spaniel" rarther than "Epagneul Pont-Audemer", I suggest that the Picardy listing be changed to Picardy Spaniel for our primary name. Sound OK? Elf 17:29, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Especially as the breed is now going towards recognition in Canada under the name "Picardy Spaniel" -- sannse (talk) 20:18, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hairedness

OK, another one. Some of the breed names on this page combine "haired" with its modifier (most of the Wirehaired, for example). Some don't (most of the Short-haired but not all, for example.) In particular, the breed stds for German Shorthaired Pointer do not hyphenate. (Although I'd hyphenate the phrase in real life AKA outside the dog world, apparently it's combined.) I haven't checked other breed stds, but I'm inclined to remove the hyphen. I'll do it now for German SH ptr. Better now than after more pgs are created and have to be moved. :-) ... Elf 23:28, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I think this one should go by the same rules as the other name decisions - we should go by the majority view of the registries where possible. I haven't checked how many this will affect or how many very ambiguous cases there are, going by previous experience there are bound to be a few! I wasn't thinking of this one when I did my spreadsheet, so there may be more bad choices there -- sannse (talk) 00:22, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Another name situation... This follows on from the discussion above about Balkan Hound/Serbian Hound. It that case Ditkoofseppala and I decided to put the article at the old name of "Balkan Hound" despite the FCI changing the name to "Serbian Hound". There is a similar situation with Yugoslavian Mountain Hound/Serbian Mountain Hound and Yugoslavian Tricolour Hound/Serbian Tricolour Hound. In all three cases Google gives more hits for the older name. All three are only recognised by the FCI. My inclination is to go with the FCI name here. This is a different situation from the usual where we are deciding between names in English or otherwise (Deutsche Bracke/German Hound) where I would go by the most common version. I think here we should use the most recent name for the article. Does that sound OK? -- sannse (talk) 11:05, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That sounds right to me. At the moment, the older names are more common because those are the names that have been used. It appears that, once a breed name has been formalized by a registry, the new name becomes gradually more common. Since Wiki has redirects & we can mention both names in the first sentence of the article, this should be OK. The only iffy thing would be breed fanciers who didn't want the name change and/or have their own breed clubs that still prefer the old name. It could be sort of like the parson russell/jack russell thing. But I suspect this will be fine. Elf | Talk 15:48, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I would like to change the canonicle name of the Fox terriers to Fox Terrier (Smooth) and Fox Terrier (Wire) from Smooth Fox Terrier and Wire Fox Terrier. The would like to do this because The ANKC, CKC, FCI, NZKC and KC(UK) all name the breeds this way and only the AKC has the variation first. I know with redirects it's not a big deal, but it seems to (slightly) better match the rule of using the most common name. Steven jones 13:41, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Interesting point. Sannse did the original work on list of names to use. Now I'm wondering about it, because the only other breed names I see on the whole list with the modifier at the end followed by parens are the two Corgis, and now that I'm thinking about it, the breed specs might define them that way, but no one I know of actually talks about them that way which means probably no one will search for them that way. (E.g., the commonly used abbreviation for Pembroke WCs is PWC, not WCP.) In fact, I also see that all the hair varieties of Dachshunds are combined on a single page, not on several different pages. Hmmm. Elf | Talk 15:38, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I told you that spreadsheet was a work in progress ;)
Fox Terriers: yes, I think the pages should be at Fox Terrier (Smooth) and Fox Terrier (Wire). I don't know why I did otherwise, just an error on my part. I agree with Steven we should keep to the name most commonly used by the registries where possible.
Corgis: I think we should stick with the current [[Corgi (Type)]]. I know it's not the way they are usually described in conversation, but it is the way all the main registries list them. The search will still find them if redirects are in place.
Dachshunds: I remember my reasoning on this one. It was an even split with the FCI, AKC and CKC grouping the types together and the ANKC, KC(UK) and NZKC listing the six types separately. As the Dachshund page was already in place I decided not to mess with it for now. We could eventually do the same as with Corgi - with a generic article at Dachshund and separate articles for each of the six types. But my worry is that the articles would simply be too similar.
All this is just my opinion of course -- sannse (talk) 23:59, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Kennel club Group articles

I have recently added the articles Terrier Group and FCI Terrier Group. That contain the breeds that the various KC's have in their terrier groups. I have added links back to these articles in the Group Field of the Airedale Terrier and unless there are some objections I will do the same to the other Terriers that have breeds. I intend to add all the other KC groups over the next week and would like to see the standard table have links back to these groups. Any thoughts? Steven jones 02:02, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

My intial thought is-- "Cool!" Elf | Talk 03:38, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
It's Miniature Bull Terrier on the main list here; Bull Terrier (Miniature) on the Terrier Group page. Need to make a final determination what the master designator should be and I'm too lazy to go thru various sites and form an opinion. :-) .... Elf | Talk 04:55, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Also will need to make breeds on FCI page link to appropriate "master list" names, as there are several differences.Elf | Talk 05:02, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Also, now that I'm looking it over, I wonder whether some of these pages couldn't/shouldn't be combined with maybe a table showing which groups/orgs they're in? It's a thought, rather than trying to maintain current, complete, & correct lists in multiple pages. Perhaps something like:
Breed AKC CKC FCI section KC
Airedale Terrier Y Y 1 Y
American Staffordshire Terrier Y Y 3 n


For Terrier groups, this could all go on the Terrier page; with Pastoral, Herding, etc., it'll be more interesting...
Whatchu think? Elf | Talk 04:55, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Excellent work Steven.
I think either of those plans would work (tables on one page or splitting over more pages). Maintenance is always a difficulty, but I think it will be in either format.
"Bull Terrier (Miniature)" is the most commonly used by the registries. It looks as though, when I was doing the original choice of names I decided not to use the bracketed form for names - even if that was the most common. I think that was a bad choice, so I think we should continue to change over as we find these (with redirects to catch the alternative).
And yes, I will get round to actually doing some work here soon, rather than just butting in with my opinionated views ;)
--sannse (talk) 10:24, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)


Of course you're right about the maintenance. And the FCI stuff would probably still have to be separate because they do the weird sub- and sub-subgroupings that no one else does. I agree it's a great idea to identify these things. So, Steven, I guess it's back to you to do what you think works best. :-) Don't you love passing the buck? I don't think anyone else has been checking in with these pages lately. Elf | Talk 18:27, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I added a link on the FCI page to the FCI Terrier Group. Elf | Talk 21:01, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I think I like the idea of the individual group pages, because they can be thought of as a useful article, (kinda, sorta, maybe). If we have all of the groups linked off the KC articles (Thanks Elf for getting that started), people could come via the KC to find what breeds are in a particular group. I agree with the maintenance problem that comes from multiple lists but I think it will actually get slightly easier when we have more breed pages done, then we can click through links and check they don't disagree and Red links will show if their is a name mismatch. Steven jones 23:13, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Sounds good. Go for it Steven -- sannse (talk) 18:13, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Photos of breeds w/out articles

Hmmm, I had added the additional list of photos as links rather than as thumbnails so it wouldn't take time to download. Now MM haschgd them all to thumbnails, and very nicely, too, but I'm concerned about having so many photos on one page. I moved all the text above the photos, but I'm inclined to change them *all* to links to the images rather than thumbnails and let people look if they want. Other thoughts? Elf | Talk 23:05, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I have cleaned up Wikipedia:Images with missing articles by making a subpage. The thumbnails of the "no articles" dogs could go on such a subpage, e.g., Wikipedia:Images with missing articles/Dog breeds. Then just add that link to Wikipedia:Images with missing articles, and warn about thumbnails ahead. --Magnus Manske 08:40, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I've been bold and made this change. There are now no images on the list - all have been moved to the sub page of "Images with missing articles". I've made a note of where they are at the top of this page, and will add it to the Wikiproject too. It might be interesting to consider adding a few images to this page at some point. Maybe one per letter, on the right alongside the list - just to make it a little more interesting. But for now I think the move is the best plan -- sannse (talk) 17:15, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
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