Talk:List of county routes in California

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This article is part of WikiProject California, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to California on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page to join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
This article is part of WikiProject California County Routes, an attempt to build a large and detailed database of county routes in California. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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Contents

[edit] Article name

  • Please stop moving this article. List of California State Routes has set the precedent. This article is to have the title List of California County Routes. Also per American English all common nouns are capitalized in titles of books, plays, movies and ARTICLES. Only in section titles are the subsequent titles to not have capitalization per the Wikipedia style guide. Another example would be Wikipedia:Manual of Style (note style is capitalized). Try reading it please. Gateman1997 02:44, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Pardon me, but I think a few hundred years of the English language has set the precedent! Please try reading a newspaper, the article titles are NOT capitalized. A matter of opinion is one thing, but a matter of fact is quite another. This is very obviously a matter of fact. If there are are other articles titled this way, then they are wrong too. Wikipedia's style manual clearly states at the top that: "Unless the term you wish to create a page for is a proper noun, do not capitalize second and subsequent words". California is the only proper noun in the title and therefore is the only word that should be capitalized.   –radiojon 03:42, 2005 August 8 (UTC)

[edit] Requested page move to list of California county routes

A request has been made to move List of California County Routes ? List of California county routes. As per Wikipedia:Naming conventions

[edit] Discussion

  • Strongly support, per above.   –radiojon 03:42, 2005 August 8 (UTC)
Forgot to mention the Main Page doesn't follow your contrived rules.Gateman1997 17:33, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
  • DISAGREE. This is a California County Route not a California county route. For consistency purposes with the pages Gatekeeper mentioned above, and because it is a proper noun when used with something... like (County Route S-14) or (Shasta County Route 223) or (Shasta County Route) or (California County Route). --Rschen7754 16:11, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
    • With all due respect... shouldn't the people who actually work on the highways pages be deciding this? --Rschen7754 17:48, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
  • DISAGREE!!!!!!!! Here is the 1-2-3:
    • The move to list of California county routes was made without the consensus of those who ACTUALLY WORK ON HIGHWAYS ARTICLES. The people working on the WP that this is part of did not approve this move. Only people who are not listed under the Participants section of the WP page want this move to occur... interesting. I have made 427 article space edits, and I believe that there were 5 that were not highway-related. I also have started 2 WPs related to highways and am part of 2 more. I would do more work on Wikipedia if I wasn't still in high school... but I'm getting off topic. Shouldn't those who have a certain expertise in an area be the ones working on that area in Wikipedia? Isn't that the point? I don't mean to offend anyone.
    • Wikipedia:Naming_conventions states that "Do not capitalize second and subsequent words unless the title is a proper noun (such as a name) or is otherwise almost always capitalized (for example: John Wayne, but Computer game)."
In this case "California County Route" is a proper noun... "county route" should be uncapitalized" but "California County Route" should be capitalized... just as "country" is uncapitalized but "United States of America" is capitalized. Even if you do not consider "California County Route" a proper noun, it is still often capitalized...

--Rschen7754 23:21, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

  • Support. "County Route" is a proper noun only when referring to a specific county route. Just like "Street" is a proper noun when talking about "Elm Street," but not when talking about "a list of local streets." Squib 22:41, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
    • This is referring to a specific route type... a California County Route. Please see Talk:list of California state routes for a similar discussion and a much better explaination by TEG.
      • Respectfully, the explanation there is entirely unsupported and wrong. Just saying it's a proper noun doesn't make it so, even if done in bold type with a series of exclamation points. California county routes is no more a proper noun than California county supervisors, California county sheriffs, or California county fairs. The operative word in your characterization "specific route type" is type. It's a category of routes and therefore not a proper noun. Squib 16:40, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Strongly Disagree As per mentioned above, it is a California County Route. The California County Route is a proper name, and as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization), it should be County Route. Likewise, the article is not United states highway 101, it is United States Highway 101. Also note List of U.S. Highways. atanamir 23:04, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Leaning Support move to lowercase. Googling "California County Route" gets three hits, and "California County Routes" only gets 15 displayed, mostly Wikipedia and mirrors, so I find the claim it's a proper noun unlikely--nobody but Wikipedia seems to use it. (FWIW "California State Routes" is used by others[1]. Niteowlneils 05:08, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Googling "California county route" and "California county routes"... it appears that Google is not case sensitive... but the only "California county route(s)" hits were off Wikipedia or its mirrors. --Rschen7754 15:52, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Decision

Since no consensus has developed in over the 5 days recommended, I'm going to be bold and remove this from Requested moves.Gateman1997 16:58, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

So 60% (3-2) is consensus for list of California state routes, but 57% (4-3) is not consensus for List of California County Routes! At WP:RM is says "The time for discussion may be extended if a consensus has not emerged.", and the one vote difference at both pages clearly suggests that a consensus has not emerged at either page. BlankVerse ∅ 03:50, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Regardless I made a BOLD judgement call and closed it after 5 days. You were on tedious ground at best. Accept the consensus. You may disagree, but that doesn't mean you're right. I'm not sure what California State Routes was at but I didn't close that one out.Gateman1997 06:49, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Order of places on each page

I think these pages should list locations from north to south, not south to north. The north to south listing makes it easier to compare the article with a map (where north is usually at the top of the page). It also makes it easier for people who place each location on a mental map as they read the article. --Jasper (talk - contribs - count) 19:11, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Okay... not a problem as long as it's a county route. If it was a state highway that would be a different matter. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs - count) 19:13, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
I think for consistency with other numbered highways in California it should remain South to North.Gateman1997 06:11, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Order of routes in the list

I think the routes should be sorted by label rather than by county; the county can go after. --NE2 07:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Personally I think it's easier to navigate by county then by some giant list. However we could always create a second list on another page or lower on this one if people would like that as well. Gateman1997 15:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
It's not easier if you're looking for a route by designation. However, does the list need to be this big? Can't we just do something like this?
and so on. --NE2 17:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
This was actually patterned after State highways in California which is what all the state route lists look like, so I wouldn't classify it as large. It's actually a very small list. Gateman1997 19:55, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
If it was patterned after that, it would be organized by designation, and would have descriptions. --NE2 20:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
They are currently listed by designation, under their respective counties to make them easier to locate. Remember Co routes in California are named for their county, ie: Santa Clara County Route G2, they just aren't named that way due to many of the routes crossing county lines. But they're not a statewide system like state routes. They are all designated and maintained by the individual counties. Also the descriptions weren't there when this list was first created. And indeed none of the other state route lists have descriptions either. Gateman1997 21:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
But the routes don't have "respective counties", since many of them cross county lines. It's a lot like the U.S. Highway System; we don't list them by state on list of United States Numbered Highways, because it's easier to locate the route you are looking for by number. --NE2 22:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
By the way, what's your source on the name being in the form "Santa Clara County Route G2"? The official sources in [2] all use "County Route N2" with no "Los Angeles" before. --NE2 22:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

What about organizing them by family? e.g. the letter before the number? Typically all the "S" routes are in 1 or 2 counties for example... --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 22:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

That's essentially what I was suggesting, with possibly a condensed list below by county:
--NE2 22:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I personally don't think there is anything wrong with it as it is now. It's clean, it's logical and it's easy to navigate. The only thing I would suggest for condensing if we want to is follow the CA State Hwy example and remove the shields. But if you must have it by letter I would suggest having both like cahighways.org has it. Keep what we have now and then below it list them by letter as well. Gateman1997 23:17, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
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