Talk:List of countries by population

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the List of countries by population article.
This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Article policies
Peer review List of countries by population has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.



Contents

[edit] How about using a UN source for all the figures?

The UN has a publication called World Population Prospects. The latest revision (2004) has population figures for most countries for mid-2005 (and other five year intervals). It might be a good idea to use those figures so as the list would be easier to maintain. The report is in the public domain and also provides details with the primary data sources, methodologies, and assumptions used. Is this something worth looking into or is there some flaw I'm not aware of in this UN publication? Polaron 17:44, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I've updated the list using UN figures. Polaron 03:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that UN Figures should be used and that we should use nations that the UN considers to be sovergn nations, and the list of countries located in Wikipedia to decide what qualifies as a country on this list. (Hypernick1980 03:53, 13 April 2006 (UTC))


Re [1] - Does the new figure for France includes the DOMs/TOMs or metropolitan France only? — Instantnood 18:05, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

The figure is only for metropolitan France. Most of the other overseas departments and territories are listed separately in the current UN-based table. Polaron 18:10, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. A footnote is perhaps necessary. :-) — Instantnood 18:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
The population of Alaska and Hawaii are not subtracted from that of the United States. Let's treat France with the same respect, as the DOM-TOM are fully integrated parts of the French Republic. These people carry French passports and speak French. These places are not colonies, and they are not sovereign. --81.51.135.124 21:06, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd differentiate the DOM (also called "DROM") and the TOM (called "COM" and "POM" since 2003). The first ones, as you said, have exactly the same status as the other French departements. The UN differentiates them because of its rigid anti-colonialist stance, but there is actually less reason to do it than to part Alaska and Hawaii from the US, or the Canaries from Spain.
But the COM and POM have slightly different statuses. They're not sovereign, their citizens can vote in the French elections (unlike the Puerto Ricans, for instance), but they're partially autonomous. Notice that Corsica is a specific-status COM, but isn't distinguished from the rest of France by the UN or any other body.
I'm not going to edit the page, but I think the most accurate way would be to do like the EU officialy does it : add Corsica and the DOM (Guadeloupe, Martinique, Réunion, Guyane) to mainland France, and treat the other COM (Mayotte, St-Pierre-et-Miquelon, Wallis-et-Futuna, TAAF) and POM (Polynésie, Nouvelle-Calédonie) apart. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.208.70.134 (talk) 04:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Updating numbers from non-UN sources?

May I update the figure for Israel (as I did for the list of countries by poppulation) or are the UN numbers a binding policy?

Penedo 07:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

This is the List of countries by population(?!). The great thing about this article is that it is a consistent snapshot at a single (recent) period of time, and all numbers are sourced and easily verifiable. The problem with updates is that they are usually based on different methods of estimation and different interpretations. I think it best to stick to just one interpretation. The UN seems as good a source as any (and better than most). -- zzuuzz (talk) 09:25, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
What is the significance of the population clocks in the notes column then if they aren't sources? - ҉Randwicked҉ 12:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
They appear to be useful additional sources of information, not references for the article. -- zzuuzz (talk) 14:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
What is the policy of adding corrections. For example Ireland's figure are higher as a result of their recent census. ant_ie 20:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
All figures are estimates for a common point in time (mid-2005). If the listed figure is wildly off, I suggest adding a footnote. For reference the 2006 estimate by the UN for Ireland is 4,210,000 (about 0.6% lower than the preliminary 2006 census figure). --Polaron | Talk 21:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Note in re: Palestinian Territories

The prefix "Occupied" has been removed for factual, rather than political reasons. In the wake of the Israeli withdrawl from Gaza and selected parts of the West Bank, certain parts of the territories are Palestinian-administered and are not, in fact, occupied by any outside authority (regardless of whatever external pressures they might otherwise face). The cited population figure includes residents of such areas and, as such, it is inappropriate and inaccurate to refer to all such territories as occupied. (As to the appropriateness of the term "occupation," that concept is so intrinsically loaded with POV issues - from all sides - that I won't even try to discuss them here.)

[edit] CIA World Factbook

Why not to use figures from the CIA World Factbook? The ones in this article are now two years old. CIA World Factbook also contains more minor countries that UN's list does not. Matveims 00:11, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

If you look at the Talk archive, many people have indicated that the CIA Factbook overestimates the population of less developed countries. The methodology and assumptions used are also not available. In terms of updates, there is 2006 UN data but is subscription only meaning it is not public domain. Only the 5-year intervals are public domain. Polaron | Talk 18:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Here are the extra entries in the CIA Factbook list:
  • World (not ranked in UN list)
  • EU (not in UN list)
  • Taiwan (not in UN list but has been added in the current list here)
  • West Bank and Gaza (listed together as Palestinian territory in UN list)
  • Jersey and Guernsey (listed together as Channel Islands in UN list)
  • Norfolk Island, Christmas Island, Cocos (Keeling) Islands (included in the figure for Australia -- individual figures listed in footnote)
  • Svalbard (included in the figure for Norway -- individual figure listed in footnote)
  • Mayotte (included in the figure for Comoros)
Makes sense. Thanks Matveims 03:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Montenegro independent

Montenegro voted independence on May 21, so preparations should be made to include it in the list separately. Why revert to older version, if it is a done deal? Nije bitno... 14:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

It is not yet official and the new government has not been recognized yet by the United Nations. In the meantime, you can add a footnote indicating what the estimated separate populations are. Polaron | Talk 14:28, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why I used CIA World Factbook.

I used CIA factbook for Bangladesh as its facts seem to be more closer to the Bangladesh government's estimates. I am Bangladeshi myself and know first hand.

According to Bangladesh Bureau of Statistics, the population projection for 2005 is 139.1 million (140.9 million for 2006). The UN estimate is closer than the CIA estimate. I think UN data is more accurate in this case. Polaron | Talk 21:31, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2006 data from UN Common Database

Here is a link to a copy of the 2006 UN data for reference. Data was obtained from Series 13660 of the United Nations Common Database. The data in the link was retrieved on 2006-04-12. Note that the original data table is behind a subscription wall so may not be public domain. Polaron | Talk 19:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comoros and Mayotte

While scanning through the list, I noticed a footnote for the Comoros which stated that the population figure given for that country also included the population of the French overseas territory of Mayotte. Since this is a list of countries and not geographic regions (e.g. Comoros archipelago, Europe, etc) then why is Mayotte included? Also, doesn't the inclusion of Mayotte in the listing for the Comoros promote the claim by the Comoros over Mayotte? If this is so then a section of this article does not conform to a neutral point of view. 72.27.59.26 05:25, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The figure and definition for Comoros were taken directly from the UN World Population Prospects Report. Polaron | Talk 05:52, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jersey and Guernsey

For some reason, Jersey and Guernsey were listed together as "Channel Islands". I see no way this is appropriate - they are administratively separate. I separated them, using the population figures found in their articles (rounded to the nearest thousand). john k 22:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] European Union entry

why don't we add the European Union entry like in the portuguese version? --Zimbricchio 21:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Beacuse it is not a country. If we were to add the European Union then we should go ahead an add Europe, Asia, Africa, America, etc. and other organizations such as CARICOM, NATO, etc. Joelito (talk) 21:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know, a lot of other lists have the EU as a sort of placeholder to show where it is in the world. Such as List of countries by military expenditures, List of countries by GDP (nominal). I'm pretty sure there are others but I can't be bothered to look any more. Personally I'd be all for including it here. Including it would not mean including the various continents as well, just as it hasn't on those other lists. It differs from those entities in that it increasingly acts as a unified economic and (to a degree) political unit, at least for domestic issues. TastyCakes 21:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
If the other economic and political organizations are not included then the EU should not be included. It is not a country. Joelito (talk) 21:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Why are you talking like you're telling us rather than discussing? There are no organizations directly comparable to the EU. It is the largest, strongest and best defined supranational entity in the world, which is why it's included on all the other lists. Which other organizations do you think classify as similar that would have to be "let in" to the list? TastyCakes 21:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
None since this is a list of countries. Joelito (talk) 21:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
That wasn't my question. If the EU were added to this list, what other organisations do you think would have to be added? TastyCakes 21:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
My intention is to oppose/detract the addition of the EU. If the EU is added then all should be added or we would be promoting systematic bias toward larger, powerful entities while ignoring smaller and less powerful ones. Joelito (talk) 21:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, I realize that, but which organizations are you talking about? The African Union? Because I'd have no problem adding that either - although it is a far more poorly defined political and economic unit which really shouldn't compare. Adding the EU to the list makes the list more useful - period. It doesn't screw up the ranking (since it wouldn't get one) and it doesn't clutter up the page. Why do you propose noone has had a problem with the EU being included on the other Wikipedia list as a placeholder? TastyCakes 21:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding what you said in the beginning CARICOM is a possibility, but NATO is just silly as it's a military alliance. Did you mean NAFTA? This is an economic unit (as is CARICOM for that matter) which makes it less suitable for its own entry in my eyes TastyCakes 21:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
ehm sorry I added it. asia and africa have no political meaning where european union has, it is just not classified as a political entity. --Zimbricchio 21:15, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

The current list, without the EU, contains no double counting (well, except for World). You can always make a note at the top or bottom of the table for the EU population but I think we should leave it out of the table. The EU is not treated by any other country or international organization as equivalent to a country so my preferences is to leave it out of the table. Polaron | Talk 21:43, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose I oppose adding the EU for the simple reason that it is not a country. Once all the European countries are dissolved and replaced by the EU then we can add the EU. Pure and simple the EU is not a nation. Hypernick1980 01:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Well if we're doing it like that I Support as it is useful information for the reader and is used on many other Wikipedia country rankings with no apparent problems. TastyCakes 06:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I also don't think it is a good idea to mix other things into the table, especially to confuse the EU alone as a country, however, I would support the idea of a separate table for regions, based on exactly the same data source, like this:
Region Population
July 2005
UN estimate		 Percent
Africa 905,936,000 14.0%
Asia 3,905,415,000 60.4%
Europe 728,389,000 11.3%
Latin America and the Caribbean 561,346,000 8.7%
Northern America 330,608,000 5.1%
Oceania 33,056,000 0.5%
World 6,464,750,000 100.0%

There is no double counting. Is there any support for this separate table? -- zzuuzz (talk) 08:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I guess such a table would be of use, but would you put it here? Or make a new article "List of Continents by population"? Also why does this article split up central america and north america? This seems confusing to me. TastyCakes 17:12, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
OPPOSED TO EU. Wikipedia is a user editted encyclopedia. An encyclopedia does not and would not list the EU or any other supranational entity. This is a reference for people to come and see a list of countries, having the EU there would only confuse people unknowledgeable about countries who came here looking to get such knowledge. And how truly useful is putting the EU as a point of reference? Anyone who wants to learn about the EU can go looking for it with ease. The argument is not so black and white on a page such as the "by GDP" list as much of the EU uses one common currency and is one common market (except for a few notable exceptions, which if anything weakens even it's entry into the GDP list). The exceptions politically are too numerous to warrant even a non-ranked entry in either the population or area pages. I could be wrong, but as far as I have seen this exchange about the EU goes round and round, but the people who tend to stay on and watch and update these lists (by area, by population, by GDP, etc) seem to be the ones who want the lists to reflect the title and to be what people come looking for.Malnova 01:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think many people are uninformed enough to think the EU is a country, but I could be wrong. Including the EU would be useful exactly because it is a point of reference - it is increasingly used as a comparison to the United States, China and so on as a global power. Yes people can go to the EU page to find its population (as they can with any country on the list), but the main point of this list is to allow people to compare populations against each other. Why do we have to be so anal about including only countries that it lowers the usefulness of the list? TastyCakes 02:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The average user who looks at the list would be more likely to ask "why is the EU in the list?" as opposed to why not. Everytime it has been editted in, new Users coming in start asking why. In answer to your question, "Why do we have to be so anal about including only countries..", I answer with a question, "Why do we have to be so anal about insisting on it's entry?" Insisting the EU be included because we are comparing populations and the EU is "kind of like a country" politically is anal in it's insistence of including "everything" country-like. If people who oppose the EU's entry here and in the "by area" were truly being so anal, they would also oppose it's entry into the "by GDP" list on principle; yet the EU's entry is there unopposed, at least last time I looked.Malnova 03:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Have you considered that there might be users who open this article with the sole purpose of finding out EU's population in comparison to some country? By not having EU in the list you are making finding this information more difficult for that user. This information would, however, not make it any more difficult for anyone. If something can be useful for someone, but does not harm anyone else in any way, I don't see why it should not be there. If someone really is ignorant enough not to know EU is not a country, he or she can go on and click the blue text "European Union" to check this. Quoting the article Country: "A country usually has its own government, administration and laws; and often a constitution, police, military, tax rules, and a population who are referred to as one another's countrymen". The EU does have its own government (in addition to national governments), has its own administration and laws, does not yet have a constitution (note that the article says "often"; all of the countries on the list do not have a constitution), does not have its own police as such (neither do some countries on the list), has a sort-of military (not all countries on the list have a military), does not have its own tax rules (neither do some countries on the list) and doesn't exactly have a population referred to each other's countrymen but there is a concept of a "european" person (all countries' citizens do not consider each other to be coutnrymen, either). Another thing; could you two please think of another adjective than "anal". :) --HJV 20:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
If the EU is added then the African Union, CARICOM, NATO, the UN, NAFTA, ECOWAS, CEMAC, EAC, etc will need to be added. Joelito (talk) 20:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Contributers. I have been reading the arguments for and against the inclusion of the European Union as a seperate entry on the population lists with some interest. On the basis of this, i have a number of observations to make.

Firstly, it is true that the EU is not a country and on the basis of this it is appropiate to exclude it. However, the EU is included on a number of other wilkipedia pages which list countries - such as the many GDP pages etc - and, as a result of this, i believe that consistency should be maintained and the EU included on this list also.

Secondly, i would disagree with some of the authors on the grounds for exclusion. Granted, the EU is both an intergovernmental and supra-national organisation of twenty-five nations, but on many levels it is a state. The EU has an executive, legisative and judisical branch of government; it has what are legally a series of constitutional treaties (although the amalgomated version failed to be ratified); it has a "national anthem" and a national holiday ("europe day"); it has an independent legal system which is superior to that of its member states (approximatly 80% of the laws passed by the national parliments of the EU memberstates origionates in Brussels); it has an autonomous policy maker; it has a centralised government, a single "national" currency and a single EU "nationality" (the Maastricht treaty in 1992 created legal EU citizenship). On top of this, the EU has an independent foregin policy (typified recently in Iran and Palestine) which is substantially more significant in terms of influence than its memberstates. On the face of a comparision between the US and the EU on the basis of these facts, the EU seems equally federalist and undifferenciated from the US. As a result, i believe that the EU is effectively a "nation" and that, on the face of it, the distinction is rather acedemic.

Thirdly, it has been argued that the EU does not repesent a "nation", as there is no single european nation. With this, i would argue firstly that with the Maastricht treaty, there is a legal EU citizen; and secondly, i would suggest that in the modern world, very few states repesent a single nation. The US, for example, repesents no nation - as US, or American citizens are simply migrants from other continents. As a result, i believe that to exclude the EU on the basis that it is not one "nation" is an outdated idea.

Fourthly, and as already pointed out, the EU is incomparable legally speaking. NATO etc and the other organisations already outlined are not considered nations and do not pocess the trappings of nationhood that the EU does. NATO etc do not include population figures on their respective websites, while the EU feels it necessary to do so. On top of this, the suggestion that Africa and Asia be included is absurd. The question at hand is to include the European Union, not the European continent. There are numerous european countries not included in the EU.

Finally, as already pointed out by another contributer, the EU should be included on the basis of practicallity. Few people will come to the wikipedia population list to check the populations of NATO, while many will come to check the EU (as i did).

On the basis of these arguments, i suggest that the EU should be included in the list. However, to reconcile the concerns of the critics, i believe that a listing with an star would be most appropiate, alluding to the concerns discussed here. I also agree with the contributer who suggested including a table of the populations of each continent, as i believe that this will also be of some use. KJM (20.06.06)

I am totally for inclusion of the EU in the list. Its statistic, people, and this is a very significative info. You don't compile this lists just for fun, it must mean something for the readers, and I think many readers would be interested in how many people are in the European Union. I am personally... --giandrea 23:11, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

How is it that we follow the UN's recognised list of "countries" in compiling this list - and thus exclude the EU from the list - and yet we divide China and Taiwan contrary to the UN's accepted practice to include them seperately? Can anyone smell the wiff of american sponsored politics here?!?! If Taiwan is acceptable as a seperate country contrary to all definitions, except those of right-wing "democracising" americans, then why isnt the EU acceptable as a federalist superstate contrary to little more than a label?? Painfully-amused(22.07.2006)

Because wikipedia is full of people more concerned with being anal than making an article more useful. I tried to add the EU again and got reverted. I'm not going to mess with this page any more.. TastyCakes 19:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Support: In addition to what others have said like the fact that people don't go around with NATO passports or NATO dollars, I'd like to say that New Caledonia, Guam, Netherlands Antilles, etc. aren't really countries either. They are territories or "possessions" etc. of countries like France, USA, Netherlands. These "countries", for lack of a better word, often have less power over themselves than the EU. But they too are included because the information is useful. The EU has a government that is directly elected by the citizens of the EU. The fact that there are people trying to keep it out really seems silly to me. I was genuinely surprised to see that it wasn't listed. I really feel that this list will be incomplete until it includes the EU. AussieDingo1983 12:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Support: Just wanted to say the EU has been added to the list of countries in the CIA World Factbook "The evolution of the European Union (EU) from a regional economic agreement among six neighboring states in 1951 to today's supranational organization of 25 countries across the European continent stands as an unprecedented phenomenon in the annals of history. ... for such a large number of nation-states to cede some of their sovereignty to an overarching entity is truly unique.Although the EU is not a federation in the strict sense, it is far more than a free-trade association such as ASEAN, NAFTA, or Mercosur, and it has many of the attributes associated with independent nations: its own flag, anthem, founding date, and currency, as well as an incipient common foreign and security policy in its dealings with other nations. In the future, many of these nation-like characteristics are likely to be expanded."

I added a note to the addition of the EU to the list: The EU is not generally considered a "country", but shows many features of a confederal state (like Switzerland is a conferal state), such as a central administration, a parliament, a superior judiciary, a single market, a single currency, EU citizenship and free settlement of its citizens across its territory. I am however not sure if it should be mentioned in the main article, or added as a footnote. BearPig 20:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pop. Clock

Should me or some1 else update the sources from the countries with population clocks? The Person Who Is Strange 14:22, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi. No thanks. There is an opinion about them in the archive. I happen to agree. -- zzuuzz (talk) 21:22, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Featured list

I think this list can easily be promoted to FL status. It just needs a bit of improvement. What suggestions do you make?

I suggest that country flags are included, and, of course, that the table is formatted in order to avoid double lines (I've made that). I also think we can create a section for maps. More suggestions are welcome. Mário 19:15, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I've made some changes in the article, if anyone disagrees, just say. But I really think it is better this way. Regards! Mário 18:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

We should probably clean up/remove some of the links in the See also section. Also, I'm inclined to put the citations right next to the figures instead of in the Notes column. We might even think about removing the Notes column altogether. But I'm not sure what to do about the population clock links. Polaron | Talk 23:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you, I also thought of that. I think citations should be included near the country name, at least, when they explain what geographic region is included in that figure. The clocks, given that the majority of the countries don't have one, should be removed, they make the list ugly. What should we do about them? That's a problem. This changes will allow us to remove the notes column. The notes and the see also sections should be cleaned up. What should we do then? Mário 23:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I broadly concur. It is worth considering putting in a percentage column. I expect we would end up with a load rounded-off at 0.1%, but it is an idea at least worthy of rejection. I was going to suggest moving the clock links to the Population clock article :-( I don't think it would be a great loss to lose them - as long as we are properly wikilinked to further sources of information in the see also section. I also agree with moving the citations next to the country name. In this list, where the note applies to a number it usually applies to the definition of the country (and all the numbers are right-aligned). I think the medium-variant fertility phrase needs expanding, indeed the whole methodology could do with a little explanation. Further points - the source for Bhutan is inconsistent with the article - maybe use a third source? The Channel Islands is unsourced. Nice flags btw. -- zzuuzz (talk) 00:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I will put census authority figures for Jersey and Guernsey in the Notes section later. For Bhutan, both the CIA Factbook and the UN give similar figures. The Population Reference Bureau (prb.org) lists the Bhutan population as 970,000. World Gazetteer lists it as 796,000. For this case, my opinion is to go with the official government figure. Now for the methodology, the figures for 2005 are actually estimates based on the 2000 round (1998-2002) of census data using recent growth rates. The projection variants only come into play for 2010 and beyond. Although it might still be agood idea to at least mention a little bit about the assumptions used in the medium variant projection. Polaron | Talk 01:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POPULATION OF PAKISTAN

the population stats given are wrong as according to cia the population of pakistan was 165,803,560 (July 2006 est.)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Madman 0014 (talk • contribs) .

They are however correct according to the U.N. World Population Prospects report. -- zzuuzz (talk) 13:51, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Just noting that the CIA figure includes population in territories disputed by India but UN figure does not. --Polaron | Talk 16:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CYPRUS?

Does anybody know if the Cyprus figure includes both the Greek and Turkish portions of the island? An editor wants the Turkish portion included with Turkey's overall population. - DavidWBrooks 16:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

To answer myself, the CIA figure for both the Greek and Turkish portions is lower than the UN figure, so I will assume the UN figure includes the whole island. - DavidWBrooks 16:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes you are correct. From comparing the estimates in the UN Demographic Yearbook (which states that the figure refers only to the areas controlled by the Republic of Cyprus) and the figures from the World Population Prospects, the figure listed by the WPP report is about 100,000 larger than the figure for the Greek controlled portion only. This conclusion is also consistent with geohive.com and citypopulation.de --Polaron | Talk 17:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

TRNC is not listed separately in the UN World Population Prospects Report and is also not commonly listed as a sovereign state. The UN figure includes both Greek and Turkish controlled territories. Being a largely unrecognized state, it is sufficient to indicate the figure for the TRNC in the Notes section. Also, for ease of list maintenance, it is better if UN figures are used when available. --Polaron | Talk 16:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


The Statistical Institute of Rep. of Cyprus counts only the population of the southern part of the island for which it is responsible and The Statistical Institute of TRNC counts only the population of the northern part of the island for which it is responsible, and population census are gathered at different years. So, in order to obtain the exact population of the island, the two populations must be given at different rows.

The official web page of The Statistical Institute of Rep. of Cyprus [ http://www.mof.gov.cy/mof/cystat/statistics.nsf/All/4E24598BFC64594AC22570BD0035F021?OpenDocument&sub=1&e= ] shows a population of 749,200 (2004 Census). The official web page of The Statistical Institute of TRNC [ http://nufussayimi.devplan.org/population%20%20and%20housing%20%20census.pdf ] shows a population of 264712 (2006 April census) - the pop. of TRNC.

So, there is no way of obtaining 835000 from the numbers 749200 and 264172. I am a mathematician. Trust me. So, the population of the two regions (north and south) should be located at different rows of the table. Let someone correct it. NikosPolitis 06:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)NikosPolitis

The UN estimate is a de jure figure based on the 2001 census and a 2003 estimate. The figures don't have to add up because they are from different sources and time periods. It is sufficient to list the census figures separately as a footnote. Furthermore, the TRNC is only recognized by one country making its inclusion in this list dubious. TRNC does not have a top-level internet domain, and does not have an ISO-3166 code and is not widely recognized as a country by most international organizations as well. --Polaron | Talk 14:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The UN estimate is the one that is found like that: First, Southern Cyprus counts its population and then add up a small number to indicate the population of Northern Cyprus. But, The Rep. of Cyprus purposefully indicates a very low population for the Northern part (i.e. 835000 - 749200=85800). However, the population of Northern Cyprus counted with the ovservers from European Union and it is found to be 264712. See the difference: 264712 and 85800!!. Also for the recognition: The Republic of Cyprus was found in 1960 by Turks and Greeks. But then greek wanted to capture whole of island and then the Republic of Cyprus de facto devastated in 1974. Also, in the constitution of Rep. of. Cyprus it writes "The president and prime minister will be one from Turks and one from greeks exchangebly. Did you see any Turkish president or prime minister of Rep. of Cyprus since 1974? Ans: No. Because the Rep. of Cyprus was de facto ended in 1974." --NikosPolitis | Talk 14:55, 01 September 2006 (UTC)
The UN estimate (for the year 2005) is a de jure figure based on the 2001 census with a growth rate based on a 2003 official estimate. The TRNC 2006 census was a de facto count which apparently is about 80,000 larger than the de jure estimate. You can't add up figures with different counting methods and different years. As long as the official figure is made clear in the footnotes, that should be fine. That is what is done for some other countries where the official figure is not quite the same as the estimate. --Polaron | Talk 06:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Change name of article?

Maybe we should change the name of this article to List of countries by population in 2005 or something like that, to reflect the fact that it is a snapshot in time according to a single source. All the folks who come in and update their country's number obviously aren't reading the introductory paragraph. - DavidWBrooks 15:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

OK. Maurreen 15:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Out of date

I think some of these figures are out of date - the UK article for example now states 60.2 million. France has 63.5 million on its article page (but strangley 61 044 684 on the reference). Mammal4 10:57, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Did you read the introductory paragraph? No, I didn't think so. Obviously we need to rename this article ... - DavidWBrooks 11:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Oops - I must confess I didn't read the opening paragraph I just skipped to the interesting bit, and I surely can't be the only one who does. Rename it if you want to, I'll just keep my nose out in future Mammal4 11:54, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Change the name of the article?

I only got one reponse last time (see above) so I 'll try once more - how about we move this article to List of countries by population in 2005, then leave it here with a change in the intro, taking out the UN mention - letting people update figures with whatever sourced information they can find? - DavidWBrooks 22:26, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not the proper way to change the name of an article. Please follow the procedure at Requested moves. Furthermore do you propose that we change the name every year? Joelito (talk) 22:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Sure it is - if it's a non-controversial, non-difficult move: ask on the talk page of the article, then move it, if that's the consensus (I'm an admin). You have a good point about subsequent years, though. But something should be done: I'm sure that many readers make the same mistake that all these bad editors do - skip over the date and jump to the numbers for the country they're interested in, misinterpreting it as recent data. - DavidWBrooks 22:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
There is no point in ranking figures from different years and using different methods. If people want a centralized location for the latest population figures from whatever source, then don't rank them. Maybe just make an alphabetical list.
How about adding a column for the 2010 figures and people can make their own interpolations for the in-between years? --Polaron | Talk 22:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
2010? - DavidWBrooks 22:54, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, because the publicly available UN figures are for 2005, 2010, 2015, etc. --Polaron | Talk 22:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that would work, if for no other reason than it would make the table unwieldy - too wide. - DavidWBrooks 00:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal for name change

OK, here's the plan. Please vote support or oppose:

Move this article (with its Talk page) to List of countries by population, 2005. Leave this article here, with its current title, removing any UN-related stuff (and probably the map) and rewriting the lead as follows:
This is a list of sovereign states and other territories by population, using the most recently available official figures. Because such figures are not collected at the same time or with the same level of accuracy, the resulting rankings may be misleading.
  • Support - I'm sure the intro of this article be rewritten over time, with a debate over whether to keep rankings, but this move will accomplish the main point: Making the article fit the title, which leads people to expect that it gives CURRENT population estimates. - DavidWBrooks 15:53, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose for reasons provided below. Joelito (talk) 19:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

There is the question of which list to link to and which list will be used as the basis for the rankings in country infoboxes. --Polaron | Talk 15:57, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

True - but is that a reason to keep the current setup, which is very misleading, judging from the many folks who make the same mistake - moving away from the UN rankings in this article. - DavidWBrooks 16:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, nobody else seems to care, one way or the other, so maybe I'll just do it! - DavidWBrooks 22:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Please make sure to inform the people maintaining {{Infobox Country}} where the UN list would be located at. --Polaron | Talk 22:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Well I for one am opposed to this. People will try to change the population even if the title says 2005. Furthermore it will lead to people creating List of countries by population for 2000, 1990, 1983, etc Joelito (talk) 19:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vital Error

I have checked several sources and they all say that the population of Bangladash is larger than that of Russia. Also, the population clocks indicate this as well.

That could be true now and perhaps even in 2005. It depends on the exact methodology of the estimate/projection. This list tries to harmonize the methodology so that figures are somewhat comparable. (Even then it's not strictly comparable). --Polaron | Talk 01:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move made

OK, I made a copy of this article at List of countries by population in 2005, and removed reference to the UN material here, so folks can update each country's figure (as so many have tried to do). I hope this doesn't degenerate into a census slugfest. - DavidWBrooks 19:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abkhazia, Karabakh, South-Ossetia, Somaliland, Transnistria, Southern Cyprus

Ok, what happened to these republics entries? On what grounds were these de facto independent countries removed, despite the enduring presence of Taiwan, Sahara and Palestina in the list? Sephia karta 22:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

OK I'll bite: "Removed"? I don't see that they've ever been on the list, at least not for months. Am I missing something? - DavidWBrooks 00:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
They were on there back in April, I searched the talk pages for a reason for their removal but found none. I will re-add them if no reason is provided, is there a way to do it without having to renumber everything?
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries_by_population&oldid=48072733
Sephia karta 14:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't know how. One thing, though: Are you sure that the population of these areas aren't included as part of other places in the list (Transnistria as part of Moldova, etc.)? If that's the case, we would be double-counting people to include them, unless the population of the officials entries are reduced accordingly. Doing that would be tough - it's sometimes hard to figure out what is and isn't included in an official count - so perhaps you could add a footnote to each of these, indicating that their population may be included in other figures. - DavidWBrooks 15:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, you're right about that, I will add footnotes accordingly. Sephia karta 23:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Population Outdated

On the [population of the world page], most of the countries population are outdated. Some of them are 2005 est. and the others are 2004 est. I think that someone has to find the exact population (It really doesn't have to be) or adleast estimate the amount for 2006 est. Thank you. - acs4b 03:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead! - DavidWBrooks 09:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources for this article - UN used as default source only

In regards to this article, I've noticed a bias towards using UN figures for the countries in the list. For countries that don't keep track of their own populations, that's a fine default source to use - but for those countries that do keep track of their own populations, and provide ongiong estimates between census' with a population clock - shouldn't the estimate of the country in question be used in preference to the estimate provided by the UN? Presumably the figures the UN are using come from the imput of the country in question - via their census, if they don't, then how on Earth are the UN figures reliable?

I've read through here and there seems to be an issue with using a population clock - why? These population clocks do use an algorithm to calculate the population at any given time - but they are based on the most thorough research conducted by anyone into the population of a given country. For instance, the Australian population clock is maintained by the Australian government based on the results of the Australian Census, which is conducted every 5 years, and was conducted last month, August 2006. When the results of a new census come in, the population clock is immediately re-calibrated to reflect the new reality. The fact is, the population of any given country is fluid, and so relying on static figures is a mistake. Complaining that the page is going to be updated all the time is a silly complaint - so what? The population has changed in any given moment - so why shouldn't Wikipedia seek to reflect that?

So, just to confirm - I think that the figures provided by a government of a country, and their population clock, should be used if there, if they're not available then the UN source should be used as a default source. I notice all the population clocks linked to in the table - one thing it does provide is the ability for any Wikipedian dropping by to participate in and contribute to a changing table - something that should be encouraged at Wikipedia.jkm 06:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] china?

china does NOT have 5 billion people, and 5 billion people out of 6 billion people does NOT equal 20% 70.190.208.138

That was a vandalism edit (reverted at a later point) --Wiz126 02:33, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adding the "Percentage of world population"

Adding the percentage of world population to each row is a cool idea, but totally impossible to maintain with static numbers. If someone wants to update the world population, they will need to recalculate 230 percentages and edit every line. To overcome this limitation, I've replaced each instance of the percentage figure with:

{{#expr: population of country / 6551855000 * 100 round 3}}%
  • To update the world population, one needs to simply copy this text into a (UTF-8 supporting) external editor and replace all instances of 6551855000 with the new figure (without commas!)
  • To update the population of just one country, the editor must make sure to change it in both places. (Again, in the expression, the commas must be left out.)

I hope this helps. If this is not maintainable either, the percentages will have to be left out of the page altogether. -- Renesis (talk) 21:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] World

Is it really necessary to include the obvious fact that the world's population makes up 100% of the world's population? Isn't this self-evident? Littleghostboo[ talk ] 08:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, to be pedantic - really pedantic, the population of the world is not exactly 100% of the human population (Although I realise this is not the point you are making - but perhaps the world percentage could reflect the population of the world as a % of the population of humanity). Currently, that would still round to 100% - because the number of off world humans is only 2 or 3 or up to 7 or 8 at any one time - but, as we evolve - and eventually establish ourselves outside the confines of the world - that percentage will inevitably drop. In future - it will be very interesting to know what percentage of humanity resides on the home world as opposed to the percentage of humanity who reside elsewhere in the cosmos. Even after hundreds of years, because of the harsh environment of space, it is predicted that the off world percentage will still be less than 1% of all humanity. 155.143.221.252 16:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Enlightening :) Baristarim 13:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm predicting a future percentage of 0% of humanity in space. We're gonna die on this rock... I need a drink. TastyCakes 16:57, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] European Union entry as an additional comparative information

I believe that we might include to the European Union on top of the entry of USA, but, without assigning position to it (with a hyphen -), for which USA would preserve the third position since EU is not a "classic" state but a supranational entity of new creation. It would be an comparative information like EU in List of countries by GDP (PPP) or List of countries and outlying territories by total area. It is an new suggestion on an already debated topic.

I propose that a Wikipedia administrator should open a voting on the incorporation or not of the EU instead of one initiating a new chain of discussion without agreing clearly on the final formula. Thank you. Regards from Europe, Barcelona. SERGIO.

OK, we can set a vote, but for now the entry should remain because it's established and clearly stated that it is not a country but a supranational entity with many characteristics of a state. --giandrea 13:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
No, it shouldn't remain. There was no consensus for adding it. Joelito (talk) 00:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Whatever happens, the description/explanation needs to be shortened significantly. It starts to read like a page about the EU itself, instead of a list of countries by population. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.136.186.132 (talk) 11:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Pop clock

Why do we need dodgy population clocks for countries whose populations are already sourced? :) Baristarim 02:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you arguing that populations are static from one census to another - and immediately just jump to oa new level after the release of the census results? Don't be ridiculous, the population clocks are based on the census data and are generally maintained by the government of the nation in question. Their estimate of their own population is surely the most trusted source to rely on when assessing a country's population at any given moment? When new census data comes out, the clocks are simply reset to whatever their true value should be, but that does not mean that in the intervening years the numbers they provide are worthless - they're the best estimate. jkm 17:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] International Organizations

The Commonwealth of Nations, the African Union, and a few other internation organizations were recently added to the list. They're not official entries, instead following after the spirit of the European Union in being unranked and italicized. However, I'm not sure they really belong here.

In some ways, this is a rehash of the above debate over the inclusion of the EU. However, that discussion only indirectly addressed the inclusion of other organizations.

The paragraph explaining the EU's relevance was very useful in establishing that it should appear on the list. It pointed out that the EU has important properties of a state, including "a central administration, a parliament, a superior judiciary, a single market, a single currency, EU citizenship and free settlement of its citizens across its territory." How many of these criteria are true for the Commonwealth of Nations or the other international organizations?

My concern is that there has to be a line drawn somewhere. See International organization for a short list of international organizations that could conceivably appear on the list. What makes those that are on the list so special? At some point, the inclusion of additional entities will clutter the list to such an extent that it is practically useless.

I'm happy with the EU appearing on the list. Are these other organizations similar enough to the EU (and to a traditional state) to merit their inclusion? More generally, what is the basis for including or excluding an arbitrary international organization?

Smith.dan 05:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


In the absense of any discussion to the contrary, I've removed that additional international organizations. I have no desire to continue an edit war, but I'm making a best attempt at matching why I've taken as the consensus from above. As I understand the long preceding discussion, most people see the EU as a special case that belongs on the list, while they agree that other international organizations (like the Commonwealth of Nations) do not meet the criteria to be an exception.

If you'd like to see an international organization appear on the list, please defend that choice here by describing the criteria that make this organization an exception. (Your criteria should not be broad enough to include dozens of other organizations as well.)

Smith.dan 21:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

has anyone else noted how the entire page has been erased by some hooligan and replaced with "fudge"?

[edit] De facto states

In order to prevent double counting, is this article actually doing things like excluding the populations of Abkhazia and South Ossetia from the population of Georgia? That's totally absurd. Any map or list you'll ever find will include those territories' populations in a count of the population of Georgia. john k 20:52, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] INDIA

india rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • This is here to talk about the page in a factual, scientific manner. NOT to express how great India is or any personal opinions. Nitrous231 22:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] England

How come the page for England says it is 24 th in world population but the list has Burma at 24th and England is not on the list? JoelGuelph 13:19, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

England is not a sovereign state - it's included here under the United Kingdom. There is however some evidence that it is a country - a constituent country. In the context of this list, the ranking on the England page is hypothetical, or provided for comparison. It is also possibly part of a recent spate of pov edits on that page. The issue should probably be raised on that article's talk page. -- zzuuzz(talk) 13:49, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plagiarism reaches new heights!

Was this population list pinched from…

http://en.allexperts.com/e/l/li/list_of_countries_by_population.htm

…by any chance, and then the author conveniently added the “TRNC” with the 265k figure taken from the most recent “TRNC” census which the UN did not observe/approve?

Bravo!

Regards, Marios Polycarpou.

It's the other way around - that page is copied from here, as explained in its footnote: "This is the "GNU Free Documentation License" reference article from the English Wikipedia" -- zzuuzz(talk) 14:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sealand

Sealand should be added, since it is, as far as I know, it's own state. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.43.170.96 (talk) 20:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC). With a population of nil?


[edit] Norfolk Island

I think Norfolk island should be added to the list, i was going to do it myself but i thought it be better if i ask here before i do any change —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Niceferret1 (talk • contribs) 21:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../l/i/s/Talk%7EList_of_countries_by_population_e986.html"