Talk:List of countries by date of statehood

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This article was nominated for deletion on 25 August 2005. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Contents 1 Meaning of "nationhood" 2 Table formatting 3 Split the page up? 4 For the correction of this article 4.1 England and UK 5 Meeting same problem while categorizing heads of states... 6 Issues with particular Countries 6.1 Finland 6.2 Greece? 6.3 Hungary 6.4 Sweden 6.5 Norway 6.6 Latin American countries 6.7 early dates for Bulgaria and Serbia 6.8 Serbia's date of nationhood 6.9 Persia (Iran) 6.10 Japan 6.11 Vietnam 6.11.1 Specific Versions of Vietnam? 6.12 New Zealand 6.13 Dissolved states 6.14 Iceland 7 Luxembourg 8 A proposal for settling the matter... 9 =Egypt is now the runner up 10 VfD notice: page has been moved 11 Vote for Deletion 12 Cleaning the article 13 To the Egyptian guy 14 From the Egyptian guy to PedroPVZ 14.1 Modern Egypt is not the same nation as Ancient Egypt 15 Roman Empire, Piedmont, Vermont, Texas, Hawaii, Carthage, Various Iraqi Civilizations, Etc. 16 Heading change 17 WTF? 18 Russia? 19 Azerbaijan 20 Iraq 21 Modern Serbia's 4 dates of independance and similar matters 22 Dispute on a subpage (/simplied version) 23 New Title proposal - ...date of statehood 24 Ethiopia 25 The image 26 Malaysia 27 Spain 28 Criteria

[edit] Meaning of "nationhood"

What do we mean here by "nationhood"? For example, China became a unified entity in 221BC, but the current People's Republic controlling most of China was founded in 1949 (as listed on the page). Do we list 221 BC or 1949? How about successor states (e.g. Republic of China from Qing Empire) --Jiang 21:30, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I don't see a reason why we have 1776 listed as the US date, but East Timor in 2002 - we need to set a rule of either declarations of independence, or facts on the ground, or both - mixing them is silly. Morwen 21:35, Dec 22, 2003 (UTC)

Morwen, your a tool.

I'm went on the most commonly accepted date. Feel free to make a change if for some reason you don't feel it is accurate. -User: Earl Andrew December 23, 2003 0:17 (UTC)

I'm not disputing particular dates, I dispute that it is valid to pick an arbritrary date and believe it to have significance. Morwen 21:02, Dec 23, 2003 (UTC)

Well, these changes will quickly become confusing. I think it's confusing to have 1801 for the UK and a date in the 400s for France...France and England went through many government changes over the years, and it's wrong to imply that France has had 1400 more years of continuity in government than the UK. We could go with the date of France's liberation after WWII if we wanted to go overboard the other direction. Until and unless we have a clear standard for nationhood, I think we should avoid moving countries around on this page. It's a nice list, but at present is imprecise. I thank Earl Andrew for the work he did, and agree with 90% of these dates, but the controversial 10% will sink this page if we let it. I think we should find a way of not letting it. Hopefully we can find a simple standard agreeable to all? Jwrosenzweig 00:36, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

How about countries that were once independent, got invaded, and became independent again (eg France, Mongolia, e. Timor)? --Jiang 00:45, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I'd add to that Iceland, which appears to be very young on this list, but in fact had the first representative assembly (the Althing) in Northern Europe (if you call Iceland Europe, and I do) at the end of the Viking era before being conquered by the Norwegians and Danes. I have no idea what to do with that. Does it matter how long a nation is conquered for? Jwrosenzweig 00:49, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Well, for France it only lasted for a war, (world war II) and to my knowledge they maintained a government? Unless I'm forgetting another instance? -User:Earl Andrew December 23, 2003 @ 0:50 (UTC)

I fully agree that the list is unbalanced. For example Hungary has the date of its first coronation listed, but Croatia does not, and yet both were once independent kingdoms, both lost their independence, and both restored it later. That doesn't quite make sense. --Shallot 22:37, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Or should we just copy the CIA (http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2088.html ) and blame them for anything that's wrong? --Jiang 00:54, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I don't want to, partially because the first user to change it means it won't be the CIA's fault anymore. Besides, they would give us 1927 for the UK....blech. Maybe this is an impossible task. And re:France, it was occupied for four years, a reasonable length of time, and its government was a puppet Nazi state based in Vichy. I'm not saying I want to have France's founding as 1945, but it raises important issues. What counts as being unindependent? China's founding date also baffles me...why should it be shortchanged when Japan is not? This problem gets thornier and thornier...Jwrosenzweig 01:12, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

No it doesn't give the UK's founding date as precisely 1927; some entries require and should have more than a single date listed. What about China's founding date? The Cia lists 221 BC. No new state was declared in Japan after WW2, as was done by Mao Zedong in 1949. If we go by constitutions, the latest PRC constitution was drafted in 1982 - not something we should note. --Jiang 01:27, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The formation of the PRC is such a dramatic change in China's history, that perhaps it is deserved its creation date as that of nationhood. From the best of my knowledge, the only thing that comes close is Japan becoming a constitutional monarchy. -User:Earl Andrew December 23, 2003 1:32 (UTC)

It is difficult to gauge how "dramatic" something is. The problem with listing 221 BC is that China is an article on the geographical and political entity and not the modern state. Is nationhood really the right word? List of countries by independence? establishment? --Jiang 21:01, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

My source for the information used the word "nationhood" but, one could think of a better word I suppose. -User:Earl Andrew Decemember 23rd, 2003 22:01 UTC

In my opinion, this page continues to be confusing...we now have Andorra granted nationhood in the 1270s by a country (Spain) that, according to the list, did not exist until 1492! Granted, it's an isolated example, but I think this is one of Wikipedia's lists that is an example of why list-making is sometimes (not always, but sometimes) a futile exercise. Perhaps I'm just being a curmudgeon, but I can't see my way to a version of this list that I find truly satisfying and accurate. Jwrosenzweig 18:11, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Another example of this would be Sweden, which broke out of the Kalmar Union in 1521 and is listed by 1523 when Vasa was elected. The Kalmar Union was formed in 1389 by Denmark, Norway and Sweden. The earlier listings of Denmark (980) and Norway (872) are quite arbitrary, and several similar milestones in the history of Sweden exist.

How much more sense do the CIA dates make? --Jiang

The whole thing is based on a very foggy notion of "nationhood", resulting in a very un-WPish POV-fest. The easy way would be to present the whole thing as a quote by the CIA, and end there. If we want to present this list as independent of CIA/USA-POV, we need to rework it. "nation" and "country" is not the same thing. "date nationhood" can only mean "date of recognition of nationhood", since nations are not formed on a particular day. This amounts to "independence", and in every case, information should be added concerning "recognized by whom". The 1291 declaration of Switzerland, for example, was recognized by nobody at all, and it had at the time much the same status as a declaration of independence of Abkhazia has today. Many nations were indepentent, but don't exist anymore today. We should either include "extinct" nations, making the list really open-ended theoretically including First Nations that were never officially recognized, or (more realistically) we should only include countries that are recognized by the UN today. In that case, only one date of independence should be given per country, if possible reflecting the formation of the modern state. dab 11:54, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The date of independence isn't a meaningful notion for most of the older countries and the date of formation of the modern state is too recent to mean anything. People in the UK or France don't think of their country as only a century or so old, when the state took its current shape; they think of it as a millenia or more old, dating back to Alfred and Charlemagne, or earlier. As for cases like Switzerland, the standards for recognition were different then.

What is needed is flexibility. In the country has a date of internationally recognised independence, quote that. If not, use the first date at which a precursor of the modern state (with a continuous history since) had de facto sovereignty over a majority of the modern states territory. That should close to the date people typically think of the nation as originating at, which is the target we should be aiming for. Carandol

fair enough, that's at least a definition of what this article is aiming at, although a difficult one, since it is a much more subjective question "how people think of their nation" than a simple date of independence.

Difficult, but doable. Not all questions are going to be easy to answer. What I've suggested is fairly objective, relating to political facts, but should approximate the more subjective definition.Carandol

It also begs the question, which nations are to be included. Only contemporary ones, recognized by the UN? nationhood had a very real meaning among the native americans, for example. Only, these nations were wiped out before they had a chance to be recognized by the UN.

The problem with those nations is that we have no good record of their origins. We could either mark any date not backed up by contemporary evidence as legendary, or omit all such events, but we shouldn't put things like the legendary founding of Japan on the same footing as the well attested American Revolution.Carandol

We also open a wide field for disagreement which date is the most relevant for any particular nation, especially for states that have sizeable minorities. dab 23:04, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

So we record all the relevant dates, with short explanations. For Spain we'd record dates for the foundation of Castille and Aragon, as well as the date of their unification. Countries like Spain, and the UK, formed by the merger of states, do contain multiple nations. Carandol

I am not sure you are aware where you are embarking on, here. For Egypt, we will have 31st century BC, First dynasty of Egypt as well as 1922, independence from UK, as well as lots of dates in between?dab

With Egypt, there's no institutional continuity, so the first dynasty is not a precursor state, but I'm well aware that some might disagree. A proliferation of dates would reflect reality.Carandol

A very difficult and potentially unfeasible enterprise (c.f. the other objections on this page), compared to the straightforward and potentially useful listing of modern independent nations by independence date. dab

You could do that, and change the name of the page, but that would mean leaving a lot of countries off the list. People would keep trying to put them back on, with spurious 'independence' dates. Prevent that, and I'm pretty sure we'll get another page created listing 'formation dates'. Carandol

I don't say you shouldn't try to do it; it just seems that the "NPOV dispute" boilerplate will not be removed anytime soon... If we are to dive so deeply into history, it seems arbitrary only to include nations that happen to be recognised by the UN (or the USA) in 2004. It's doable, alright. And it's also possible to make it objective. If we don't exclude legendary dates, there will be no end of them, though, going back to aboriginal "dream time". If we remove all mythical dates, that leaves us with controversial dates. If we don't wan't to follow a central authority, disputed dates should be marked as disputed; that would force us to include Basque, Tibet, Taiwan and Abkhazia types of national independence movements dab 11:36, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'd prefer to exclude legendary dates, or exile them to another page. Sticking to de facto sovereignty should minimise the dispute for historical dates, which aren't live political issues. For more modern dates, exclude nations which haven't had de facto sovereignty in recorded history, but include the rest, not just those recognised by the US/EU/UN, and mark disputes. In principle, that would include cases like Bavaria and Kashmir but we can begin omitting such cases and see if anyone feels strongly enough about their nationhood to put them in. If they did, they'd stay in. This seems nearer NPOV than only considering nations recognised by the US/EU/UN. Carandol

[edit] Table formatting

I started a new table which may be better then the current one (after it's finished, of course).

Date	Nation	Event
660 BC	Japan	Founded by Emperor Jimmu, descendant of goddess Amaterasu
301	San Marino	Founded by the stonemanson, Marinus the Dalmatian
486	France	Gaul conquered by the Frank leader, Clovis I
681	Bulgaria	Peace treaty with the Byzantine Empire
875	Bohemia (Czech Republic)	Borivoj I's convertion to Christianity
966	Poland	Mieszko I's convertion to Christianity
980	Denmark	Unification by Harold Bluetooth
1001	Hungary	Coronation of Stephen I
1066	England	Norman conquest
1143	Portugal	Peace of Zamora
1238	Thailand	Sovereignty won from the Khmer Empire
1747	Afghanistan	The Durrani Empire founded by Ahmad Shah

England predates 1066, which was the Norman conquest of England. A better date is either the accession of King Alfred, first king of all England, or the departure of the Romans, when many histories of England begin.

[edit] Split the page up?

I think this pages should be split:

• List of countries by most recent date of independence
• List of countries by earliest date of independence under their current names
• List of countries by earliest date of unity in roughly their current borders

etc if anyone can think of other salient characteristics. Thus for Algeria, say, we would have:

• Date of most recent independence: 1962
• Earliest date of unity in roughly its current borders: 1518?
• Earliest date of independence under its current name: effectively, 1710; legally, 1962

How else will it be possible to resolve the issues? Any ideas?--66.92.26.227

Agreed. Can you explain the difference between "most recent date of independence" and "earliest date of independence under their current names"? Most commonly, the official name changes when a new constitution is passed, etc. Where does that fall? --Jiang 21:36, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I propose "most recent date of independence" for when their current incarnations became independent; thus Lithuania would be 1990 rather than 1918, or 14-whenever. "earliest date of independence under their current names" would be for when something resembling that territory first became independent, eg 1253 for Lithuania, basing it on the original Kingdom rather than the modern Republic; this may often be disputable or not adequately known, but that can't be helped. I added the "name" proviso just to rule out cases where a significantly different national group established a country on roughly the same territory (say, the Mon in Burma, or the Hittites and Byzantines in Turkey.) One might also need to separate the lists by dates of de jure versus dates of de facto independence (for Lithuania, 1918 versus 1990/1991.) --66.92.26.227

Actually, listing what is traditionally celebrated as a nation's "birthday" or "independence day" may be more interesting, informative - and most of all easier - than listing dates of de facto establishment of a national state (whatever it may mean). So I'd suggest two lists: National "Birthdays" (very often it's just a year, no month or day) and Independence Days. --Kpalion 22:28, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm with 66.92.26.227, mainly. At any rate, the list cannot possibly be allowed to stay here, because it is not the least concerned with nationhood. Please, please, please distinguish between states (countries) and nations. -- Jao 14:25, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

then be bold and carry out the plan. there are no objections. --Jiang 23:54, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

I think creating a List of historical countries by date of nationhood/independence could come in handy as well, so that countries of the past such as the Roman Empire and Parthia and even Hawaii can be recognized. — Rickyrab | Talk 03:13, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] For the correction of this article

For the newer countries, the entries are good (need recognition and declaration dates). No problem with that. But for older ones, it reaches the limits of the ridicule (sorry for the word). So,1st step is to see which countries CIA considers from that year. The other we must see case to case if it is really the same nation (and when they were recognized. We also should have 2 dates (declaration or emancipation - and recognition). I see a lot of missleading info. Can a person with some culture believe that croacia independent in 1993 was the same country from the 12th century, just because it shares the same name? -Pedro 10:26, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Again with the Croatian case. What about all the other countries? How similar or dissimilar can any one of them possibly be? (That's 1990/1991, not 93, too.) --Joy [shallot] 11:43, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Not only that case. I found lots of them! The most difficult to deal are France; Hungary and San Marino (this last case is easy - declared independence in that date, but recognized much later). That maedeval Croatia has NOTHING to do with modern Croatia, besides being part of the history of the country. -Pedro 01:30, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC) How about England and Scotland? Arent they part of the UK? Why they are listed? That is pure POV. -Pedro 01:32, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Before 1200

660 BC - Japan - traditional founding by Emperor Jimmu icorrect!

221 BC - China - unification under the Qin Dynasty I'm not informed'

at least 2,000 years - Ethiopia - oldest independent country in Africa and one of the oldest in the world I cant tell

3 September 301 - San Marino declaration date

486 - France - unified by Clovis I Cant tell

681 - Bulgaria - unification of Bulgars and Slavs by Asparukh completly incorrect

843 - Scotland - unified by Kenneth mac Alpin not correct

9th century - England - Alfred the Great (871-899) the first King of England' this can be valid, if England leads the UK, similar case in Spain

10th century - Croatia - transformation of the medieval Croatian state into a kingdom under Tomislav around 925 completly incorrect

10th century - Denmark - organized as a unified state by Harold Bluetooth around 980 valide

1001 - Hungary - unification by King Stephen I I belive it it wrong

23 June 1128 - Portugal - from Kingdom of Leon valide

5 October 1143 - Portugal - king Afonso Henriques' rule recognized as independent

1156 - Austria - raised from a Bavarian margravate to an independent duchy under the Babenbergs I dont know

Grow up. --Cantus 01:41, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have to concur with Cantus here, what you're saying is quite incoherent. --Joy [shallot] 09:50, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• I changeg to more "neutral" words. Have you read the history of those countries? Who should grow up intelectualy is Cantus, that doesnt know the meaning of this and doesnt border to understand the total mixture that this "article" is. If this continues like this. I'll add Lusitania, ophiussa and oestremini has former Portugals. -Pedro 13:43, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, have you read the histories of those nations/countries? I really can't tell from what you've written. --Joy [shallot]

I read Croatia's, Hungary's and Etiopia's. Why cant you tell cause of the 91/93 error? For what I've read nether croatia, nether Hungary is the same state or nation. Especially Croatia. -Pedro 16:21, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

So you read them, and still insist that they are so horribly different from England or Portugal or Spain that they aren't even in the same category? Am I the only one who doesn't see any sense in this? Anyone? --Joy [shallot]

• IN Spain there was a meger of different nations, Castille leading it.
• In UK, there was a merger, with England leading it.
• In Portugal nothing changed since 1128, just the form of government: monarchy (totalitary; liberal); republic (1st,2nd,3rd).
• Crocia was an ancient kingdom, that disapeered, became regions of Hungary and other states. Modern Croacia, is a recent nation from former Yugoslavia. Has every country it dates its roots from former states. In the case of Croatia, Old Croatia. In the case of Portugal, Lusitania (circa 3rd century BC - 10th century BC). We are teached about the heroes from Lusitania (has 1st Portuguese heroes), and we understand ourselfs has Lusitanians, in museuns, artifacts from Lusitania are especially showed. We arent the same lusitanians, nether has a state, language, religion, etc. It is important as a link to the past, it is a credible link, but we can not understand it has the founding of our nation or state. I'm not trying to offend Croatians, this info is very useful to the History of that nation. Has like Lusitanians is for ours. -Pedro 16:39, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

But this former state was on the same territory that is today inhabited by the same nation, and the present nation speaks the same original language (I'm pretty sure it's similarly different as is e.g. Alfred's English and modern English) and is of the same religion. If we were talking about statehood, then they would not be the same because there were many different states inbetween. But we're talking about nationhood, and that doesn't require nation states — it can't require nation states, because the concept of a nation state didn't exist before pretty recent history. --Joy [shallot]

A thing's for sure. You feel connected to that former state. But if we are debating tribes or nations. You cant have a date. In most countries listed here, they are listed by independence (inluding Portugal); Spain by a merger. If Croatia is listed like that, and non-independet nations (like Scotland) then we will have a very confusing article. I cant date the nationhood of Portugal. Nether the Spanish and their various peoples. How can you understand a nationhood, by the independence of a nation /state at the first time, and not the today's independence?. Portugal is an independent nation state since the 12th century (at least since the 14th century, the concept of a nation (feeling different) has kept it independent from Spain. Has a nation, I cant date it. The country since the 9th century tries to get independence. It gained in early 12th century. The the title of this page is missleading. The best is to create a new article.-Pedro 23:31, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• by the way, most of the countries listed in here, are not nations, but independent states. This article is pretty messed up. -Pedro 23:33, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It seems apparent that you've missed the whole previous discussion on this talk page about how we may need several different pages because of different criteria used :) --Joy [shallot] 20:58, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Also, I never said that I don't "understand" "today's independence". Indeed, if you actually bothered to look at the article, you'd notice that both dates for Croatia are listed. --Joy [shallot] 21:00, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• stop being nationalist. You know this article is BS. -Pedro 11:42, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What wonderful logic... --Joy [shallot]

[edit] England and UK

England is still recognised as one of the constituent "nations" of the United Kingdom, and there is a continuity of history in that "English" constitutional law, parliament, monarchy etc. remained English when Wales was incorporated and all became British after the union with Scotland. There wasn't a break with the past, just a change in name.

Also, there is no "national" day in the UK- there are the saints' days for the patron saints of the constituent nations, but these aren't public holidays except for St Patrick's day in Northern Ireland.

[edit] Meeting same problem while categorizing heads of states...

The problems raised by this page are to be met elsewhere... I have just stumbled on a similar difficulty today, when I tried to develop Category:Heads of state by country - how far backwards in time should you include a ruler in this category ? (A few hours were enough to be in conflict whether or not subcategorize Category:Pharaohs in Category:Egyptian heads of state, see Category talk:Pharaohs).

(This comment being also a little piece of advertising ! Why would not you add the rulers of your favourite country to Category:Heads of state by country ?) --French Tourist 16:33, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Issues with particular Countries

[edit] Finland

I would not list 1917 as the day when "Finland" started as such. The first times when Finland was mentioned as a separate entity from Sweden and/or Russia dates way back to before the 1500's. In 1581 Finland was already considered a "grand duchy" of Sweden. 1809 could be considered as one concrete date when it started existing as a separate entity, merely a grand duchy of Russia. By 1906 Finland already had universal suffrage (third in the world..), which could also be a date when the "Finns could choose their leader", meaning the nation could, de facto, decide for itself.

[edit] Greece?

This is a nice page. However, I have a question regarding Greece. In that article, there are three different dates given for Greece's independence--one in the opening section, and two in the table (declared and recognized). This article posits a fourth date. I know nothing about which is right, or how it should be handled, but we should have some consistency. Can someone who knows please check. Danny 11:39, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Hungary

Hungary is a country of AD 896. My reasons are that Hungary has been a well-defined (constant) geographical area whose people has been sharing the same (unique) language and culture continuously since that time, and it has been the same nation AND the same country every since. AD 896 is the year when the Hungarian tribes conquered the area which became the land of the Hungarian Kingdom recognized by the Catholic Church (which WAS the de facto authority to "recognize") on Jan 1st, 1001 with the coronization of Stephen I (I. István).

Hungary is a country of 1918. This is the only one that I saw. You cannot date a country to be from 1000, just because an ancient kingdom had the same name. that is not the same thing. -Pedro 23:39, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Sweden

Sweden broke out of the Kalmar Union in 1521 and is listed by 1523 when Gustav Vasa was elected. The Kalmar Union was formed in 1389 by Denmark, Norway and Sweden. The earlier listings of Denmark (980) and Norway (872) are quite arbitrary, and several similar milestones in the earlier history of Sweden exist.

[edit] Norway

Norway was founded more or less with the same territory it has today by Harald HaarfagreHarald Fairhair in 872, after the battle of Hafrsfjord. Norway then went into the Kalmar Union in 1389, together with Denmark and Sweden. In 1537 Norway became a province of Denmark, but continued to be a distinct nation with its own language and its own people. Norway then broke loose from the union with Denmark after the Eidsvoll declaration in 1814. The current Norwegian constitution was signed by the representatives on May 17th 1814. Norway then entered into a personal union with Sweden, in which the two countries shared one king, but remained independent, among other things they kept their own flags and constitutions. This union was then dissolved peacefully in 1905.

I dont even want to talk about Scotland and England! -Pedro 23:44, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Umm, what? England as a "country" was unified in 9th century by Alfred the Great. It has since been conquered, and had a couple of civil wars, but it's still the same country, albeit in political union with another (AIUI). Do you mean "nation", instead?

James F. (talk) 00:14, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• Well the title is "nationhood" .Pedro 00:36, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You should contact the jokers, the CIA, who compiled this list. --Cantus 00:17, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

I cant believe in this, sorry if I seem offensive. From CIA: 28 November 1975 (date of proclamation of independence from Portugal); note - 20 May 2002 is the official date of international recognition of East Timor's independence from Indonesia The fact, is that the independence was from Portugal. Xanana Gusmao came to Portugal to discuss when Portugal would declare the country's independence - he choose the date! As for Hungary I searched in a Enciclopedia. This is very dubious information. And very stupidy, that will misslead people. I think it should go with a label "caution: stupidity" -Pedro 00:36, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

look: CIA, for Croatia: Croatia 25 June 1991 (from Yugoslavia) .. OOOps it must be another CIA! -Pedro 00:39, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Please don't try to be funny, it's not. See the detailed discussion above. This list has problems, but we won't fix it if you mock one thing instead of fixing another.

(And, just FYI, both dates for .hr are correct, each in its context.)

--Joy [shallot] 11:04, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Cool down people, please. This a hot page already, no need to set it on fire. As someone said way up in this talk, maybe it should be moved to List of countries by independence date, maybe even better List of states by independence date, and even then it would be problematic. Wich independence date to use? The self-declaration of independence? International (wich?) recognition? Maybe both... And what about countries that lost and regained it one or more time? List the last? List first and last? List all?

Why I think the name is bad? Given that nation "is a group of people sharing aspects of their language, culture and/or ethnicity" you can not date a nation. There is no way to say that on D day people felt like a nation and on D-1 day they didn't. Also there are nations that aren't, and never where, a state, and, thus, some states have multiple nations (see: nation for examples)

OTOH a state "is a political entity possessing sovereignty". The date of sovereignty, or independence, may be established, even if still with the difficulties I mentioned above, and certainly some more I didn't thought of.

As for the CIA as a source, I think it is a good as any other, for a article's beggining. After that we shall not forget two major points.

1)The CIA is, given it's nature, a POV institution.

2)The CIA is not an association of historians, so, even when in good faith, they will make mistakes - as an example of that I removed the list entry for 1910-10-05, Portugal independent republic. At that date Portugal did became an independent republic but was the successor of an also independent portuguese monarchy. Its the same nation, it's the same state, only a different form of government. Nabla 17:43, 2004 Aug 31 (UTC)

It is unfortunately quite common to say that Norway was a province of Denmark. This is however not nececarily true. But to say that the Norwegian nation did not exist before 1814 would be, depending upon your definition, even more wrong. This discussion surfaces once in a while when notable Norwegians from the years of the union are being claimed by Danish people today as being Danish (Ludvig Holberg, Peder Tordenskjold). It is difficult to know what they themselves thought. But Norwegian playwright Johan Nordahl Brun said in 1770 that the Norwegians had two fatherlands: One natural (Norway) and one for citizenship (the state they shared with Danes, Holsteiners and others). Others might say that they were Danish because they were subjects of the Danish King.

So that leads to the question of the "existence" of Norway.

The Danish kingdom was an elected kingdom until 1661. However the Norwegian kingdom was hereditary. This meant that the Danish Riksråd could theoretically choose someone else than the person next in line as King. This was used in the power struggle between King and Riksråd. However if the Danish Riksråd chose someone other than the person next in line the person next in line would still inherrit the throne of Norway and thus the union would be dissolved. This led to the Riksråd making Christian III promise to make Norway a province of Denmark (and not call himself King of Norway) before they would elect him King in 1536. This is the origin of the "myth" of Norway only being a Danish province. There is however no indication that this was actually done by Christian when he became King. On the contrary both he and subsecuent kings insisted that they were hereditary kings of Norway as well as elected kings of Denmark (and hereditary dukes of Schleswig and Holstein). The Norwegian Riksråd was however abolished so one might say that Norway lost its independence this year. But the separate hailing of kings in Norway continued. Norwegian culture, laws and organization continued. The separate status of Norway was still maintained and used to full in the process of creating an absolute monarchy and the abolishment of the Danish Riksråd in 1661 and continued after that. Source: Ersland and Sandvik, Norsk Historie 1300-1625, Det Norske Samlaget, Oslo 1999 ISBN 82-521-5182-5 and Dyrvik, Norsk Historie 1625-1814, Det Norske Samlaget, Oslo 2004 ISBN 82-521-5183-3 This didn't exactly clarify which date to use, but I thought it was worth mentioning since the subject was already up.Inge 12:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Latin American countries

I think the Latin American countries have some errors. Right now, the list seems to record the first time they were ever called by their present names in reference to an administrative reigon, but most of the dates of nationhood are actually dates in which they were just accepted into the larger Central American Republic or Kingdom of Nicuragua. Most only became countries in the 1840's. Maybe I will fix it. It's just that editing wiki charts scares me...

This list as it is now is good for post-colonial countries in the Americas and Africa but makes no sense for European and Asian nations. In Eurasia most nations were born hundreds if not thousands years ago, and practically all of them were divided, merged, conquered and liberated many times in their histories. The very notion of nationhood in those countries is different from that in countries like the US, Canada or Australia. For instance, you can't treat the UK as a single nation - the English, the Welsh, the Scots, and the Irish consider themselves separate nations and probably have different dates for nationhood. I don't know if I'd be able to correct all of these dates but I can give you one general hint. As a rule of thumb, the traditionally accepted "date of natinohood" for most European nations is not that of "independence" but that of Christianization (e.g. 966, not 1918, for Poland).
Oh, and forget about what the CIA says. Does anyone really think that Egypt, one of the most ancient nations in the world, started in 1922? What sense does that make?
--Kpalion 17:22, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• • Well, for a brainsless guy, it makes no sence at all. The fact is that modern Egypt only used the name of Ancient Egypt, it is completly a different people, language, culture, religion, state, borders, etc. Nothing is alike! Nothing! Christianization? Has far has I know, Christialization came to exist in the Roman Empire. The Romans were christians when the Barbarians invaded the Empire. You are all mixing up various things together. The only problem that I find here, is San Marino (is it from the 4th or 19th century? -BOTH!). And other few. The complex cases you should study if there is a continuum on the state or people. And not people that are distance in 1000 yrs, that just share some territory and the same name. THAT IS NOT THE SAME THING, NOR THE SAME NATION, PEOPLE, ETC.. -Pedro 14:51, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• You cant say France is a country from 1945, because the French state continued its existance then and centuries before. But You cannot saay that the "kingdom of the Franks" was France. It wasnt! If this articles continues like it is. I'll put Portugal has Oestremini (a nation with possibly 4000 years). Hey it was located in Portugal! Or should we base on 195 BC - the borders of Lusitania were almost the same has today's! Why Spain is made of the 15th century, there were kingdom before. hey... there were others before. It is known has Hispania since 1000 BC! -Pedro 01:04, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] early dates for Bulgaria and Serbia

initially posted to User talk:Joy

Hi Joy, Bulgaria's year of nationhood is 681 (or 680/679). It may have been a khanate, but officially Bulgaria started to occupy the territory north of the Byzantine empire after Bulgars defeated it, and the Byzantines were forced to sign a peace treaty with them. If you don't agree with this fact, then who do you think these territories belonged to? If Bulgaria was still a khanate in 2004, would this mean that it's not a country? Look at country:

A country, a land, or a state, is a geographical area and an independent political entity with its own government, administration, laws, often a constitution, police, military, tax rules, and people.

Bulgaria was an independent political entity; it had its own government; it had its own administration; it maybe didn't have many laws back in 681, but I'm sure there was some order; it had their own people and military.

Please tell me why you think Bulgaria was not a country from 681 to 864. Meanwhile, I'll revert your edit. --webkid 19:59, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This is another one of the issues with the vague definition of "nationhood" that we have on this list. If you're going to make this argument about Bulgaria (and Avala about Serbia), then we can't escape the question, what about all the other countries that had an equivalent status in the same time period. --Joy [shallot] 20:55, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think that this should be about first state of the nation.

A country, a land, or a state, is a geographical area and an independent political entity with its own government, administration, laws, often a constitution, police, military, tax rules, and people.

In Serbia? 680? come on at least you know it..

[[User:Avala|Avala|★]] 09:47, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm not quite comfortable with equating states under rulers described as "knez" or "khan" to define nationhood. There must have been at least some reason to delineate those lower ranks from the higher ranks such as king or tsar. AFAIK, the various local dukes were often just competing warlords and didn't have a clearly defined independence, government administration or laws, let alone police and tax rules... granted, the early kings may not have had a handle on all that either, but at least the Pope and/or the patriarch of Constantinople thought they were worthy of recognition. --Joy [shallot] 11:43, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Serbia's date of nationhood

Why do you think that Serbia became a nation in 680? Were there any treaties with Byzantine or Bulgaria for example? The article History of Serbia says: The first Serb state emerged under Caslav Klonimirovic in the mid-10th century in Rascia.. Why can't I find even one match for "Vlastimitovic" at google? --webkid 18:54, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The problem is not only with Serbia, is in all eastern European countries, maybe because they are new and people need to have to justify their nationality or something else. Portuguese nationality is in 868. But everyone in Portugal would see this date has ridiculous. Cause the country was nothing more than a county, with scarce times of "real" independence (due to problens in the kingdom of Leon), like Castille (i.e. Burgos - other county of Leon) and Galicia (a dependent kingdom of Leon) have had occasional independence.-Pedro 21:01, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The problem with Serbia is that it appears (on the net) that there was no Vlastimitovic dynasty. There're 0 matches for this dynasty. Can anyone explain this total lack of information? I'm sure that there would have been at least 1 page about this if there was such a dynasty. --webkid 03:57, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You misspelled it. It's "Vlastimirovic". See List of Serbian monarchs. --Joy [shallot]

[edit] Persia (Iran)

As an empire and civilization, Persia (Iran) began in the 7th century BC with the rise of the Achaemenid dynasty. In 550 BC / 549 BC, Cyrus the Great unified Persians and Medes and established Persia as an independent country. So, can we add Iran to Before 1200 section? Farshadrbn 11:37, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• OMG!!!! But you can do it, there are other crazzy things in this article, that would be just one more. -Pedro 12:43, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think the date of nationhood is accurate in the original article and these are my reasons: it is true that civilisation on the Iranian plateau and central Asia long predates Cyrus the great, Ilamites were contemporaries of Sumeria and the recent discoveries by Italian archeologists in Turkmenistan (the Bactria-Marghiana Complex) have probably stumbled upon the primordial "Iranian" civilisation tantalisingly suggestive of the mythical and avestan Aryan Vaeja (Iran Vij in Middle Persian). Hence the common claims on the Iranian web site of Iran being seven thousand years old. But modern Iran is a continuation of Iran Shahr (Aryan Khshathra- the Iranian State) and not Iran Vij (Aryan Vaeja- Iranian homeland). The institutions of kingship, the Iranian (Aryanam) vs non-Iranian (An-Aryanam) identity, the widespread implementation of the Persian language, the Persian calender and the standardisation of the founding mythologies of Iran, the birth of a national architecture, standing state army, the incorporation of the Zoroastrian hierarchy into the state, the model of bureaucracy that survived into the Qajar dynasty in the early twentieth century with modifications.... all date back to the unification of Iranian Kingdoms (Persia, Media, Parthia, Bactria...) into one overarching state. This did not happen with the founding of the Achemenian dynasty by Teispes in the seventh century BCE but by the defeat of the Median Empire by Cyrus the Great and the surrender of the remaining Iranian polities.

A distinction has to be made between the Persian Empire and Iran. This is similar to the difference between Britain and the British Empire. The Achemenians and later the Sassanids always made a distinction betweeb Iran and non-Iran. Although the Persian emperors appointed Vassal kings to the non-Iranian part of the empire and thus were honoured as the King of Kings, they reserved the monarchy of Iran for their person. Thus the beginning of the Iranian state would have to be placed at 550 BC. A Salardini

UPDATE: The Persian Empire reached far more than just Cyrus II. The Elamites, which were the FIRST known Persians, and the Persian kingdom. Which were around the 2500s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Empire

As you can see, right there. The Elamites were Persians. Of course, the Persian empire even extends MORE! up to 5000 B.C+

I made a change in the foundation of the Persian Empire. The page had Cyrus the Great founding in 648 BC, which was decades before he was born. The Achaemenids had ruled Anshan since at least 648 BC, but Cyrus didn't found the Persian Empire until 550-49 BC.--Syd Henderson 04:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Map image altered to reflect the true date of statehood for modern Iran. Since the map features countries with their modern borders, it would be inaccurate to use the ancient dates of foundation.Alibaba2000 22:05, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Japan

I have put in the accession day of Emperor Jimmu in again. The introduction clearly says that the foundation of ancient ancient nations can't be pinned down clearly (duh!) and that's why dates from foundation myths are often given. Besides, February 11th is a national holiday in Japan, so we might as well put it in here. Pilatus 12:01, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I have removed 'traditional' from Japan and replaced it with 'mythical'; 660 BCE is a myth, unlike Egypt and China, for example, where there is historical evidence to support their foundation dates. Japan was a prehistoric society until the 4th century C.E. so there is no historical evidence to support the choice of this date. (Cripipper 22:45, 28 November 2005 (UTC))

I have to agree with Pedro, a mythological founder is not the same as a historical one. As a point of reference to my own area of expertise, the founding King of Persia in Persian mythology is Kyomars, now recognised to be nothing other than a corruption og earlier myths of the primordial mortal man or Gayo Mortan. Cyrus on the other hand is historical. A Salardini

[edit] Vietnam

Vietnam became an independent country after the Vietnamese people defeated Chinese forces in 939, and have continued to be an independent country continuously since except for a brief period in the 15th century when it was invaded by China. During French colonialism, it was still nominally independent. The current Vietnamese government considers itself to be the legitimate successor to the entity established in 939, albeit with expanded territories. DHN 21:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Not wholly true DHN - Annam and Tonkin were indeed protectorates, and thus had a very dubious nominal 'independence' (although they had no control over foreign affairs, taxes etc.) Cochin China was an incorporated part of France. Cripipper 22:36, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Specific Versions of Vietnam?

It seems to be on there several times. Perhaps clarification would help. Just H^{editor review} 00:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Zealand

The United Tribes of New Zealand declared New Zealand independent in 1835. Prior to this the various Māori tribes acted independently in their own districts. This declaration was cited as a legal basis for the subsequent signing with Māori chiefs of the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840. New Zealand then became a British colony until 1906 when it was granted Dominion status and began the march toward complete independence.

Since we are using the earliest date of nationhood it would therefore seem that the 1835 date is the most relevant in respect of New Zealand. I have added the 1835 date but I have not deleted the 1906 date.

Ben Arnold 01:14, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the reference to NZ "independence" being obtained in 1835. The United Tribes of New Zealand declared New Zealand independent in 1835. Prior to this the various Māori tribes acted independently in their own districts. This declaration was cited as a legal basis for the subsequent signing with Māori chiefs of the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840. New Zealand then became a British colony implies that the colonial status of New Zealand was changed 1840 due to events involving the Maori population in 1835. It cannot be claimed that New Zealand obtained independent statehood in 1835 with the way the notion of independent statehood is commonly understood.Vanillagorillas 22:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dissolved states

The list is inconsistent with regards to the inclusion of dissolved states. For example, the Republic of Texas and the Dominion of Newfoundland are two examples of political jurisdictions which no longer have independent statehood. They are included in the list. Yet, we don't see mention of other former independent states; short-lived or otherwise such as Biafra, or the Republic of Manitoba (examples that spring to mind) If former modern countries are to be included, should it not be an exhaustive list incorporating all of them with the date of cessation of statehood or dissolution included? Vanillagorillas 22:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Iceland

Removed ref to Icelandic independence in 1918. The description of the "sovereignty" was pretty much akin to Greeland's current status vis a vis Denmark. Nobody would argue that Greenland is indepedent because they've had "home rule" within Denmark since circa 1979.

[edit] Luxembourg

Surely, the date of independance should be 11th May 1867. 1839 was the date of Belgian independance, along with the Belgian province of Luxembourg, and was the date the Grand Duchy was separated physicaly from the Netherlands, but it was hardly full independance. 's-Gravenhage 13:30, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Another Wacko request... hayyyyyyyyyy.. it seems this document best forgotten.

In Luxembourg, the year of 1839 is usually considered as the year of independence, since from that date the country was physically separated from the Netherlands. Also, betwee 1839 and 1867 Luxembourg was simply linked to the Netherlands in a personal union; but Luxembourg was not part of the kingdom of the Netherlands. Luis rib 12:35, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A proposal for settling the matter...

We could include traditional/historical dates for the integration of the nation, and second dates for the founding of the current goverment. So, for instance, Japan would continue to have the date of 660 as a traditional date, but also 1946 as the date for the establishment of the current government of Japan. Similar situations would exist for several European states. Bear in mind, I understand that it may be difficult to establish a second date for some states (who really knows when the government of San Marino was established?), but that shouldn't stop us from implementing this compromise. Justin (koavf) 22:03, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)

• Not a very good idea. I start immidiatly thinking in the best example that I know, my country. So Portugal would have been formed in 1974... O_O or has the CIA put it... in 1910?!... both very stupid! So a 1946 date for Japan is just idiotic. Has a matter of a fact, and because Portugal and Japan are related, Japan only became a unified country when the Portuguese arrived there with their guns. Did Japan existed has a state before that? Ask a Japanese...

You noticed that things are not that straightforward, contratulations! As it happens, the Portuguese commemorate the independence from Spain on December 1st, the declaration of the Republic in 1911 AND the overthrow of the dictatorship on April 25. (Then we have the Battle of São Mamede and the Treaty of Zamora.)

Two dates yes, but for declaration /emancipation/soverengty and other for recognition by the pope/ UN/mother nation, etc. The state must have continuaty (being the same people, same culture, same language, same state!).

A thing that I'm surprised in this article are the American countries, why there isnt the same info as in Eastern European countries and former European Asian colonies? Didn't the native Americans founded some sort of unity? You can also put it here. Is really Amazing how countries that didnt existed some years ago, in here, they have thousands of years. And there are some that even dont exist has countries. :D The CIA is a very bad source to things - several incorrections and gross errors in many areas of the articles, but by faar is more credible than this ashaming article. The UN hasnt a similar list? I'm still waiting for a formation date of a country on the Dinosaurs Era! Didnt a monkey 100 000 yrs ago in Eastern Europe roared Ugga bugga?? Maybe that's the real formation date for the Tcheque Republic... or maybe Croatia... Sorry for jocking again, but the article is already a joke. I'm also in the ride. Ok, it is not fun... Where's Mongolia? As far as I know that's the real oldest country in the world. i'm not sure of that -Pedro 17:05, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

===> A relevant example: China No one doubts that China has existed as a political and cultural entity for thousands of years, but the specific political entity of the Republic of China has only existed since 1911, with the overthrow of the monarcy of Puyi. Furthermore, the ROC exists on Taiwan to this day, but the People's Republic of China has existed as the government of the Mainland since 1949. So, there are three "Chinas": 1.) historical, feudal China, 2.) the ROC/Taiwan, and 3.) the PRC/Mainland. It is meaningful and useful to use dates for all three nations/states. This would be the sort of information that I would expect as a user clicking on a link called "List of countries by date of nationhood." For further information, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_%28disambiguation%29. Justin (koavf) 18:38, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)

I link the idea of listing a multiplicity of dates - integration and founding of current government are good milestones, though there are many fuzzy cases. I'll start adding some. (I wonder if in the long run, it will be necessary to have separate lists for each, to cut down on clutter? Maybe not.) -- Beland 05:03, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

• The republic in Portugal started in 1910. That date would be incomprehensable for any Portuguese if it is seen as a founding date and it is not ever used. People will think "stupid wikipedians". Just like everybody that saw CIA says "stupid country".--Pedro 12:44, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] =Egypt is now the runner up

come on people, we are reaching the 5000 BC date! What country will be first? --Pedro 18:09, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] VfD notice: page has been moved

This page was undergoing VfD at List of countries by date of nationhood, when PedroPVZ moved it to List of countries by date of Independence. To reach the VfD, go to Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of countries by date of nationhood. --Blackcap | talk 00:51, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vote for Deletion

This article survived a Vote for Deletion. The discussion can be found here. -Splash 00:14, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cleaning the article

I've started cleaning the article, if you know something about other countries, plz clean:

• Egypt; Iran; Scotland; Serbia (1st date).

there are a lot of problems left.--Pedro 21:50, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Japan: Emperor_Ojin, 270 seems the real date, the rest of the emperors are myths. Am I right?

Bulgaria: real date: 1908

Iceland: 1944 --Pedro 21:59, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] To the Egyptian guy

From the guy from Egypt plz calm down and stop vandalizing the wiki (namely Portugal article), and leaving messages as "Fuck PedroPVZ" or "Portugal is a shitty country". I'm not a kid to be upset by those messeges. And admit yourself, instead of hidding under an IP. -Pedro 21:40, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

• he is also trying to revert the article to make Egypt the oldest country. But modern Egypt doesnt even has nothing to do with Ancient Egypt. Ancient Egypt ciesed to exist during the Roman Empire, way before the creation of the modern state, that just uses a name that it shouldn't use. Is like saying a potato is a carrot. --Pedro 13:14, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
  • It's a bit less straightforward than that. In the Roman empire Egypt had a special status, and it was also quite distinct under Ottoman rule. In a way, the story is like Poland, which disappeared from the map for a century and then re-emerged in a different place. Pilatus 14:22, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
  • So what do you suggest as a suitable date for Egypt attaining nationhood/independence? We have the revolution under General Nasser, the installation of King Fuad by the British, then there is Mehemet Ali, under whose rule Egypt became de facto independent of the Ottoman Empire, and let's not forget Pharao Narmer, who unifier Upper and Lower Egypt? Pilatus 14:36, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] From the Egyptian guy to PedroPVZ

Dear Pedro, this is a very very long message, but I beg you to read it till the end.

Firstly, I regret having vandalized the article on Portugal. I can assure you that I am far from being xenophobic and that I have nothing against the Portuguese people. I did so because I was really upset by your constant removal of the article "List of countries by date of nationhood" (what upset me most was the fact that you summarized one of your edits by saying that what I was doing was nonsense). I want you to know that, by restoring this article, I am not trying to make any country appear as the oldest country in the world. I simply think that there should be two different articles : one for nationhood, and one for independence, for these are two very different concepts (a nation is not necessarily an independent country, and vice versa). For instance, for a country like Norway, 872 should be the date placed in the article on nationhood (as it marks the unification of Norway by king Harald I, and therefore the birth of the Norwegian nation), whereas 1905 should be the date placed in the article on independence (as it marks Norway's independence from Sweden). Yes, I admit that it is extremely difficult to find a single date for nationhood (and the article clearly says so from the first sentence). I am also aware that not all countries can be placed in the article on nationhood (many independent African countries, for instance, cannot be considered nations, since they are made up of different ethnic groups that have very few common characteristics). However, this is not a reason to delete the article on nationhood, even though it is far from being perfect and contains many absurdities.

Secondly, I beg you to stop making arrogant statements about subjects you know very little about. Saying that "Ancient Egypt ceased to exist during the Roman Empire" is pure ignorance (I'm sorry I'm being rude, but you're the one who forced me to talk like that). During the Roman Empire, it was only Ancient Egypt's political status that changed : from a sovereign nation, it became a Roman province. But everything else remained the same : the Roman Emperors continued to depict themselves as pharaohs, the Ancient Egyptian language was still spoken and the Ancient Egyptian religion was still widely practiced. As for your assertion that "Ancient Egypt has nothing to do with the current Arabic state", it simply shows that you don't know anything about Egyptian history. Unlike modern Macedonia (which is trying to use the name of ancient Macedonia, despite the fact that it has nothing to do with it), modern Egypt is not "using a name that it shouldn't use" (I am quoting you). Ancient Egypt and modern Egypt are in fact the SAME COUNTRY, and any serious historian would agree with me. If you're not convinced, then here are a few facts you should consider :

1) The people : Egyptians living today are the direct descendants of Egyptians living during the times of the Pharaohs (Egyptians have never emigrated and have never been deported ; they have intermingled with other peoples during the centuries, which is something very normal, but they have never lost their identity). 2) The borders : modern Egypt's borders are nearly identical to ancient Egypt's borders (this is in response to Pilatus's assertion that Egypt, like Poland, "re-emerged in a different place"). This is something quite unique in history (if you look at a map of Egypt during the times of the Pharaohs, you will notice that there have been only minor changes in Egypt's boundary). 3 ) The language : Of course, you may be surprised by this, because most people believe that modern Egyptians speak Arabic. In fact, this is wrong. Nobody speaks Arabic in the Arab world. People speak different dialects of Arabic, which actually bear very little resemblance to one another. The overwhelming majority of Egyptians speak a language that is composed of 40% Arabic and 60% Ancient Egyptian language (I am not inventing this ; these figues are taken from a study by Mohsen Lotfi El-Sayed, one of Egypt's top experts on the ancient Egyptian language). 4 ) The culture : Modern Egyptian culture inherits a lot of traditions from Ancient Egyptian culture. This is most obvious when it comes to funerary traditions : the dead are buried in tombs that are actually small rooms (the City of the Dead in Cairo is the most striking example). Relatives regularly visit these rooms/tombs and leave food, exactly like their ancestors did during the times of the Pharaohs (this tradition is typically Pharaonic and is found nowhere else in the Muslim world). But it's not only limited to that : Egypt's national festival (Sham el-Nessim) is a pharaonic rite that has been celebrated without interruption for thousands of years, despite the numerous conquests. Culinary traditions are also inherited from Pharaonic times. And these are just a few examples.

THEREOFRE, modern Egypt is the same country as ancient Egypt. It should figure on top of the list on nationhood not because I want to belittle other countries (this would be extremely nationalistic, and thus contrary to Wikipedia's NPOV policy), but because it is the oldest unified nation that still exists today. Let me explain these two points : 1) Egypt as a nation and political entity has NEVER CEASED TO EXIST since it was unified by Menes in approximately 3100 BC (and this is a historical, not a legendary date), contrary to many other ancient nations that have disappeared a long time ago (in order to illustrate this, I am currently working on a new Wikipedia article that will feature a list of Egyptian rulers from Pharaoh Menes till the current president Hosni Mubarak, and you will see that there isn't a single period of time missing from this list). Egypt never disappeared from the map (unlike Poland). The only thing that changed during the centuries was Egypt's political status (from an independent nation, it became a Roman province, then a Byzantine province, then an Arab province, etc...). But the borders, the people and the culture remained the same (of course, certain aspects of the culture did change : Egyptians, for instance, gadually abandoned their old polytheistic religion). 2) Egypt has always remained a UNIFIED POLITICAL ENTITY since 3100 BC, contrary to many other countries that were fragmented and reunified several times (Greece, Italy, China...).

Thanks for reading my message.

P.S. : You will notice that I have only placed Egypt on top of the article on nationhood. I haven't placed in on top of the article on independence (saying that Egypt is the oldest unified nation that still exists today is true ; however, saying that Egypt is the oldest independent country in the world would be totally wrong). If you want to put a date for Egypt in the article on independence (and I have noticed that Egypt does not even appear in this article), I suggest you put 28 February 1922, which is the date Egypt was granted nominal independence from Britain (full independence was only attained on 18 June 1956, when the last British colonial troops left Egypt).

[edit] Modern Egypt is not the same nation as Ancient Egypt

Plz, stop thinking people are dumb. Modern Egypt has nothing to do with ancient Egypt, besides Modern Egypt enclosing parts of the territory of Ancient Egypt. It has clearly NOT the same language: the language IS TOTALLY different, the culture is TOTALLY different, there's a huge gap in time, the religion is TOTALLY different, and how can you say to us that it is the same nation? Do you know what a nation is? People and historians and everyone always make clear that Ancient Egypt is not the same thing as modern Egypt, that why ppl use "Ancient Egypt". What happens is that a country today just uses the Latin name of a previous civilization with a different name, which often means lack of a real national feeling at present (IMO). The Czech Republic is not using the name Bohemia, simply because they have a name for their nation, you can bet if they havent they would use Bohemia. And believe me they are much, much more related with Bohemia than Egypt is with Ancient Egypt. Besides (and again) Egypt is just the Latin name of Egypt, Egyptians named their nation by another name. I think everybody would like that the Egyptian civilization would still exist in the 21st century (or a variation of it, like what occurs with China, Japan, Mongolia, or the Roman Empire), but it is clearly gone, forever lost. And the modern Egyptians are Arabs, with a very distinctive civilization. I agree that some modern Egyptians may find the birth of their nation in ancient Egypt but that is just a sentimental feeling without any truthful relation, there's some surely. Portugal also traces its nation way beyond the birth of the nation (de facto), but that are just myths. Honestly, I dislike this article, because it is everything wikipedia shouldnt be. Sorry if I may seem aggressive, discussing serious things in English stresses me (language limitation). -Pedro 15:27, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I find the Egyptian guy articulate, reasonable and convincing, while Pedro comes off more like an elephant in a china shop or a child throwing a tantrum. After having carefully reviewed Egyptian history and culture by reading through multiple articles, I agree with the egyptian guy -- it is quite reasonable to consider modern Egypt the same nation as Ancient Egypt. Sure, a lot has changed, but honestly, what country wouldn't change radically if it maintained a distinctive sense of self for the incredible time span of five millennia? Egypt has never really broken with its past, merely evolved. This is unlike cases such as Italy, which evolved from the 14-16th century merchant-states -- even though Italy inhabits the same region as the Roman heartlands, you don't see Italians these days being as connected with the traditions of the Roman Empire as modern Egyptians are with Ancient Egypt. With Egypt, there is an unbroken line going back, and that is quite significant and unique, and is quite convincing. --Samy Merchi (Talk) 01:15, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

+I am by no means an egyptoligst but my laymans understanding of Egyptin and Arab hisitory leads me to agree with Samy and Egyptianguy. I can't think of another country that should be at the top of this list. But I do have a question. Could Babylon be considered as having a similar link with Iraq? probably not but it occured to me that Baghdad is one of the oldest cities in the world but I must confess my general ignorance of Iraqi history.::

Sounds good, but if we're going to leave the current date for Egypt, we need to delete the note about Ethiopia being the oldest independent country in Africa. Scrutchfield 01:13, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

• You both must be kidding. Ok, your ignorance is your problem, and ignorance shouldnt be included in an enclyclopedia article as it is! Yes, lets delete everything that is correct, and put in here all the nonsence and fantasies. There's no direct link betw Ancient Egypt and modern Egypt. That's why historians use ANCIENT egypt and MODERN Egypt, to make a note that these are two different states and nations. You dont' find my reasoning convincing? I'm not trying to get you at my side, but to make a clear statement that it is nonsence. Just that. But Japan also uses a supposed Emperor and a supposed date as founding of the nationhood, so not only Egypt has that problem. That what was said about Italy is the fact of not knowing Italy or just plain... forget it. Italy is way more connected to Ancient Rome than modern Egypt to Ancient Egypt. Wayyyyyyyyyy more... there's even no comparison. So this is a list of who has the oldest nationalist fantasies??! Egyptian Guy is not by hijacking an article that you make your country older. -Pedro 02:42, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

This article how it is is unnecceptable, but no one is doing nothing: A nation: http://www.tamilnation.org/nation.htm#Subjective%20attributes%20of%20a%20nation In a simple way: it is a people often with a common language and culture/religion or a evolution of that... China is an ancient nation, Japan is also one... Egypt is not. As I said I wish we could talk about Egypt as we talk about the mysteries of China, Mongolia, Japan... but we can not. Ancient Egypt did not evolve it died out. I would agree with Greece, but no Greek putted the Ancient Greece founding date, I would accept it, they still use the same language (an evolution of that), and there is a cultural evolution. My reasoning does not accept Egypt as such, Egypt is an Arabic nation, and Ancient Egypt is "just" part of its history. They were lucky there was an ancient nation that built that monuments for them and make the country known, they may relate to it, but they can not say it is the same nation; I don’t believe that the current Egyptian state endorse that Modern Egypt is the same nation as Ancient Egypt. We in here also see ancient peoples with 5000 years as part of our history, but we don’t see them as the same nation as us. Portugal as a nation (and a nation-state) that exists for 1000 years, its history and peoples go back further in time. But we are not the same nation, they spoke Celtic languages and had a Celtic culture; we speak a Romance language and have a Latin culture; we are much more related with people that live for instance in southern Italy than we are with the people that lived here before us, even if we still have a proven 10,000 years genetic and ethnical background. I hope the Egyptian guy understands this, it is the example that I know best. I would like this article informative and clean! I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW INFO ABOUT OTHER COUNTRIES, CURRENTLY, IT IS NOT A RELIABLE SOURCE OF INFORMATION. Sorry for being an elephant! --Pedro 16:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

• • Ancient Rome was indeed a nation as well as a city. People were patriotic to it, it was also a state; there was also an ethnic element to being a Roman, with the Latin language and Roman culture contributing. It deserves its place among the nations. 204.52.215.107 14:32, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roman Empire, Piedmont, Vermont, Texas, Hawaii, Carthage, Various Iraqi Civilizations, Etc.

I couldn't help but notice that Bohemia, which is currently part of the Czech Republic, is on your list. If we're going to list previously existing countries, we might as well seek the dates of independence of the above and other such countries. 165.230.149.164 02:59, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Heading change

I liked this article and was pleased there was a majority in favour of retaining it. But obviously from the number of contentious issues that have been discussed, conceptually it does not sit well with some. I can empathise with the various objections to the extent that the heading does not suit the contents. I would like to propose a change of heading to:

"List of Countires by date of [unification or independence]" or similar.

The reasoning is as follows:

The current heading mixes semi-legal and non-legal terminology. "Country" is defined in its eponymous article in Wikipedia by reference to a geographical territory. That to me serves adequately as a definition to be applied to this article. It is a generic term and synonym to "nation" or "state".

On the other hand, "nation" is, in its article, defined as much as by reference to the identify of an ethnic group, as it is to the existence or non existence of a state. It is thus, to me, a more dynamic (but less generic) term. Finally, we have "state", which is the most formalistic, requiring as stated in its article, attachment to a particular territory and international recognition. Although not mentioned in the current article, its possible use cannot be overlooked.

The added value offered by this article is that there is an interest, from people like myself, in knowing when a "country" was established; that is to say, when did - from an historical perspective - an identity of sorts establish itself in a territory. Categorising this by way of "nationhood" is, according to the above definitions, unsatisfactory. "Statehood" is even less appealing. Therefore, perhaps a more technical solution is required, even though I concede that the process of categorisation is not an exact science and becomes less accurate the futher back in time one goes - since countries might establish themselves in any number of ways.

Even that is the case, what strikes me of the countries listed that the overall characteristic applied is the date of unification (in the case of conquest or agreement) - or independence (in the case of secession or declaration).

Conceptually the proposed title will cover the first countries of the world (city states, kingdoms, etc.) on account of their de facto declaration or unification of territories. It also covers newer states recovering or claiming independence.

The change in title is less evocative that the concept of "nationhood", but a change may help in meeting the repeated requests for the article to be cleaned up.

rgds to all, --Gazzetta 11:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WTF?

Okay, ive never seen a more POV-centric article on wikipedia - for example, the area which consists of modern China, or even medieval China, was not unified under the Xia dynasty, only a single kingdom within modern China was - under this definition, India could have been 'united' as far back as the Indus-Valley Civilization, perhaps 600 years ago - simply because the first cultural dynasties originated then. Under this definition, Persia was united several thousand years ago too, by the first Sumarian kings. This is essentially a place where cultural nationalists can compete to see who's civilization is older. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.128.228.94 (talk • contribs).

Don't forget about the establishment of Israel, which may not have occured till the 800's BC, but as it's cited in Jewish relgious texts, occured prior to 1000 BC. The list would be better if both the establishment of the present country were given with that of the traditional establishment of the nation.--Moosh88 01:04, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

We have made age-old consensus that Legends/Myth/Fairy Tale doen't count and should be unquestionably excluded from the list. (E.g. Korea's legend Kingdom even dated back to 2333 B.C.). FYI, all feudal lords surrounding the Xia State accepted the Xia monarch as suzerain, implying a loose form of unification of this proto-Chinese State. Please also kindly note that its the list of countries but not civilizations! Keep it concise---219.79.27.89 08:10, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I reverted Vastu's changes which were more like POV-pushing/vandalism rather than a genuine edits. Firstly, before making edits please read other relevant article[s] on wikipedia. Xia Dynasty itself was not Myth. It was clearly recorded in the CHinese historical texts Shiji and the Xia Dynasty article further stated that

In 1959, a site located in the city of Yanshi was excavated containing large palaces and appears to be the likely location of the capital of the Xia Dynasty. Radiocarbon dating places the site at ca. 2100 to 1800 BC, providing physical evidence of the existence of the Xia Dynasty.<Sources: J.K. Fairbank, China: A New History. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1992, p.35>

Secondly, please also carefully take a look at the whole List before any edit is made. The List clearly shows that the Date of Nationhood for the NATIONS was basically counted from the date of political unification/independence, but not simply the beginning of Civilizations. According to the Indus Civ. entry itself, the Civilization was only a group of advanced urban settlements or a bunch of municiple towns instead of a State/Dynasty/Kingdom. NO evidence shows that there was any nationwide rulers/kings or any nationwide-unified government or any administrative division in this case.

It is worth noting that more than half of the Indus Civ. settlements were located in present-day Pakistan instead of the Republic of India. It means Pakistan and India are sharing the historical lineage of this Civilization. 202.40.137.196 09:36, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

That raises the quetion of what relevance this article has at all - seeing as nations that didnt 'officially' gain nationhood at a certain point dosent reflect when they were first considered a nation, due to differing political systems - the Xia dynasty for example only likely ruled less than a tenth of modern China, if it indeed existed (a semi-mythical historical text is not definative proof, neither is a settlment). Since there is substantial proff that the IVC was infact a single state, and since it covered an area of India (and yes, Pakistani India), probably comparible to that of the Xia dynasty. Already this article is in many ways a farce seeing as a some of the states listed bear no relation to the history they sit upon - but this makes it slightly more of a farse, seeing as the same standards have not been applied to India. Vastu 06:35, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Addendum - I have even provided a reference from a reputable historian, if that will help people overcome double standards? Since this article is as the intro said, mainly listing dates used for cultural propaganda and nationalism - the IVC is a good representation.

(see discussion - equal evidence for Xia dynasty and IVC being unified state - IVC bears as much relation to modern India (or more?) as Sargon's does to Iraq or Narmer's to Egyp) - this says it all - the argument for removing India seems to be twofold - that other states have more claim, and that the IVC was not a unified state or does not represnt modern India.

Infact the IVC covered an area of India greater than that of ancient Egypt or Sumer, is widely acknolwedged to be a single state, with a unique form of government resembling an early republic, and bears more linear relationship to India than any other state in the pre BC catagory - Israel was not even occupied by people who would call themselves Israeli for most of its history, nor does Egypt connect with an empire that ended 1400 years ago, or Iraq with one even more tenuous. Thus India has more justification for being there than most of the states on that list - either remove them all or remove none. The Xia dynasty, if it existed, may have been a small kingdom the size of modern Luxemburg for all archeologists know - thus the Vedic Purana dynastic records of India can be equally trusted - they list the first Indian dynasty as being 6500 BC - and at the very least, the Magadhan empire of which Maurya dynasty was a part existed since 800 BC or earlier - conformed by historians - date of 'unification' is thus the same for India and China - the date they were geogrtaphically unified (ive edited it to conform to this standard already) - and anything further back as mentioned earlier is a matter of either removing all the pre-BC states, or none... Vastu

[edit] Russia?

What about Russia? It seems to be the only country not mentioned here. As from History of Russia it could be either 988 as the start of christianity for Kievan Rus or maybe sometime in the 14th century for the start of Muscovy -- Astrokey44|talk 12:56, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Azerbaijan

In 1918 there was a Azerbaijan Republic so the nationhood of Azerbaijan should be changed to 1900-1939. Baku87 23:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)Baku87

[edit] Iraq

It's the oldest civilazation it should be the top of te list!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.138.64.179 (talk • contribs).

Mesopotamia and the modern country of Iraq are not one and the same. — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 20:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• this is a garbage article, it would be just one more non-sense, there are already a lot of those cases in here, we should include them all or remove them all.--Pedro 16:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Modern Serbia's 4 dates of independance and similar matters

Is there anyway we can separate the list into historical dates of nationhood/national liberation/independance and dates whereby the modern nation as it exists today in the modern world came in to being? There are several dates for more then just Serbia, I think we need to have all dates other then the most recent put in the historical dates of nationhood. The latter of the two tables should be solely for coming into being of modern countries that presently exist. Benw 00:38, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute on a subpage (/simplied version)

Another editor with IP address 203.76.228.34 has been making numerous (uncited) changes to the simplified version of this list. In large part this editor has changed the dates of nationhood for many nations that were occupied during WWII, as if those nations (e.g. Japan, France) lost their nationhood during the war and regained it when occupying forces left. It seems to me that an occupation does not automatically cause the occupied nation to cease to exist as a state. I am not an expert on this topic, so I welcome other editors with more expertise to comment. I see it was discussed at length some time ago. --Ginkgo100 21:01, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Title proposal - ...date of statehood

Nationhood cannot be equated with independence of becoming a state. Take the example of the United Kingdom, which is considered to have four nations. For this reason I propose that this page be renamed List of countries by date of statehood. As this page has been around a while, I wanted to see if there were any objections before this move. William Quill 12:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

• Some may suggest that the list be truncated to reflect the fact that the modern nation-state did not arise until relatively recently in history. Maybe a split of the list into Date of Nationhood and Date of Statehood (along with a discussion of the differences) is in order? --Mike Beidler 18:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethiopia

Why is only Aksum considered? What about D'mt, the kingdom from which Aksum descended from about 800 BC? What about Punt, which most historians today believe was located in Northern Ethiopia/Eritrea (same area as D'mt and Aksum at their core) and which is said to have existed from 2500 BC? — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 01:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The image

This image very strange for me. Why for example Armenia painted in red while Georgia in violet? Does the color indicate the first time of accuiring independence or the establishment of the modern state?--Nixer 08:46, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Malaysia

I noticed that the date of independence of Malaysia is listed as August 31, 1957. Actually, it is the date of independence for the Federation of Malaya, which is now part of Malaysia. The Federation of Malaya joined with Singapore, Sabah and Sarawak to form Malaysia on September 16, 1963. Joshua Chiew 12:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spain

I think than the date of statehood for Spain should be 1714 (with the end of the Succession War and abolition of the kingdoms of the crown of Aragon). As the article says, 1512 is only the date of a dynastic union between some kingdoms (those kingdoms didn't disappear and continued with their own independent institutions and parliaments), so the date than should appear in the article is not this.--Jordi G 23:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criteria

This article doesn't seem to have a clear criteria for what qualifies as a date of nationhood. Should legends of myths count? Or should dates start from the beginning of civilization in the region? Or from the date the country was unified? Or the date it was declared independant? The criteria seems a bit too ambiguous as it is now. Jagged 85 06:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)