Talk:List of cities in Australia

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[edit] List

The list should use the full names of the Australian states, rather than abbreviations. -- Mic

Would it be too much to ask to put a list of cities here, rather than a list of cities, towns and suburbs? -- Tim Starling 01:19, Feb 2, 2004 (UTC)

  • I think cities only, as the title suggests, is fair. Do we list city councils or major metropolitan areas? My suggestion is the latter. --Chuq 01:41, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • I think the way to go would be to list major cities only, with side articles like List of localities (Victoria) (or similar to List of Sydney suburbs) to go into more depth about suburbs / smaller cities. Otherwise, if we list every suburb and city, imagine how large this list is bound to grow - AJ.

[edit] Warrnambool

Is there a reason that Warrnambool is not listed as a city in Victoria?

In fact, there is a category Victorian cities that has quite a few more places than this page.

[edit] Newcastle / Gold Coast

I posted a link to this page on a forum to sort out a discussion about the relative populations of Newcastle and the Gold Coast. I received a reply from someone who checked out the articles on the cities themselves, and found conflicting information. What official source should we use for populations (ABS census stats, ABS estimates..?) We should try to update all related population figures each time new figures come out. -- Chuq 04:12, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Number of inhabitants

Surely, a place with fewer than 100,000 inhabitants can scarcely be called a city.—preceding unsigned comment by 80.189.215.97 (talk • contribs) 03:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC+11 hours )

[edit] Population of Sydney

Although the listed population of Sydney does not match that given as the headline figure for the Sydney metropolitan area by the ABS source, that headline figure includes the population of the Central Coast (which is listed as a separate city on the list). Realistically this population should not be counted twice. If you check, the metropolitan area total minus the Central Coast total gives the figure listed in the table. 203.217.79.19 10:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Latrobe valley?

why is the latrobe valley on this list, it is a council with 3 seperate major towns; Morwell, Traralgon and Moe.

[edit] Deletion of Logan

The other night I added Logan to the list of cities. In terms of population, it is the twelfth largest and should be input between Hobart and Geelong. See Special Case LGA Codes at the bottom of http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/9f0b5791ed98061fca256f1900128409?OpenDocument DB 11:46, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

This is a list of city populations as defined by the ABS, not populations of Local Government Areas. Logan LGA is part of the Brisbane Statistical Division, the population of which is given as a whole. Similarly, the list does not give the populations of Blacktown in Sydney (~200,000) or Lake Macquarie (~160,000), counted as part of Newcastle, for example. - Randwicked Alex B 12:42, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
If it is the case that a "city" is defined by the statistical division, why is it that Tweed is connected to Gold Coast. This is clearly incorrect as Tweed is part of the Richmond-Tweed Statisitcal division. 60.226.143.84 10:22, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Because at some point this was a list of urban areas, which counts the contiguous Gold Coast and Tweed Heads as one urban area. The list eventually got replaced with figures for the SDs and SLAs, but no-one bothered to change the names. - Randwicked Alex B 10:43, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
That is ridiculous reasoning. Tweed is situated in an entirely separate state jurisdiction. Can you please quote your ABS sources. 60.226.143.84 11:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me? 'Ridiculous reasoning'? It's God's own truth of what happened. But here's your link seeing you asked so nicely: Gold Coast-Tweed Heads, regarded as a single Urban Centre/Locality. - Randwicked Alex B 11:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes ridiculous reasoning. That data is dated 2001. It is out of date. This article is a joke. 60.226.143.84 11:20, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
A joke? How so? - Randwicked Alex B 06:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
  • We have the same problem with Albury-Wodonga - it is a concept but made up of two cities separated by a state border and goverened separattely. Perhaps we need ot agree what is a city and then work onwards. Nobody I believe would say Albury-Wodonga is an Australian city but perhaps I am wrong.--A Y Arktos 07:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
  • The data on this list needs to be clearly defined and altered to reflect the data is is presenting. For example, if this is a list of top level statistical district populations, then Central Coast should be included in Sydney, but from some odd reason it is listed on its own.--nixie 03:59, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
  • The problem also occured with Canberra-Queanbeyan. Someone deleted Queanbeyan and thankfully subtracted it's population from Canberra but was not thoughtful enough to place Queanbeyan on the list seperately- it's 41st.

[edit] List by population

The ABS presents three separate figures for most cities: The LGA population, the urban area population and the statistical division/district population (which is basically the metropolitan area figure). We only have one list at the moment, and as we haven't defined which figures we are using, it appears to have collected examples of all three. I propose the best solution is to have three lists, of the twenty biggest LGAs, urban areas and SDs respectively, with proper definitions according to the ABS given. - Randwicked Alex B 09:40, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I will start with a list of the 50 biggest Urban Centres then (a nice round number), the latest figures for which are from the 2001 census. - Randwicked Alex B 13:09, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I've completed two of the three lists; the LGA list will have to wait until tomorrow. If anyone has any questions about the definitions feel free to contact me. - Randwicked Alex B 15:50, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
  • You are doing a great job - thanks :-)A Y Arktos 18:57, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
  • The section purported to represent 2005 estimate doesn't match the data on the ABS web site. Are numbers still pending revision? Garglebutt / (talk) 00:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Looking at the PDF I used, it is from February 2005. It's possible they have released revised figures, I just used a copy already on my HD. I will take a look at the new figures. - Randwicked Alex B 02:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I checked, the figures for SDs match those in the relevant pdf [1]. Are you looking at the LGA figures instead? - Randwicked Alex B 02:57, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
The link on the first table goes here[2] which appears to be 2005 LGA data. Garglebutt / (talk) 03:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
That's the top page for the data set. The full pdf is available under the second tab. Maybe it should link straight to that tab (but not to the PDF itself...I hate that). - Randwicked Alex B 03:41, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Ah ok, so the last table hasn't been revised to 2005 yet which is where I got a bit lost. Garglebutt / (talk) 04:01, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Glad you like it. Now that the list is complete, perhaps it can be split off into a separate article List of cities in Australia by population as is done for other countries. This would de-clutter this page and allow us to concentrate on solving the problem of definition for this list and tidy up the rest of it. - Randwicked Alex B 16:52, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Moved the list to List of cities in Australia by population. - Randwicked Alex B 07:43, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is included on this list?

How is a city defined on this list? GSTQ took out some satellite LGAs which are cities in their own right, and removed some other LGAs which are also cities, yet left in some places, like Nowra in NSW, which is not a city in its own right but is the main centre of an LGA city, Shoalhaven. I propose we include all LGA cities in here that are not in the capital city, or else someone propose some verifiable and attributable way of including a city as defined in Australia. JRG 13:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

JRG is quite right that since the relatively recent LGA reorganizations in N.S.W. & Victoria there has been a problem dictating what makes a city in these two states. I have reverted the list to my latest edition because JRG's edition left the N.S.W. list inconsistent with Victoria's. I disagree with JRG's assertion that Nowra is not a city in its own right. Nowra had a city council before the amalgamations: therefore it has been gazetted as a city. Whether the establishment of Shoalhaven Council implicitly revokes Nowra's city status is rather conjectural and would probably be original research if we tried to come to a conclusion on Wikipedia. But one thing is clear: throughout Wikipedia, lists of cities are predicated not on areas presided over by councils, but by localities. "Shoalhaven" has no postcode or recognizable centre. It is a deliberately vague name chosen for political reasons. The article on Shoalhaven is analogous to the Rural City of Wangaratta, City of Bunbury or Port Pirie Regional Council articles, rather than the Wangaratta, Bunbury and Port Pirie articles (just to give a few examples), which it should be if it were to be consistent with the rest of the list. City status may depend upon a local council having been given the name "city" in the past. But the city consists of the locality, not the council.GSTQ 03:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Why don't we just include the LGAs where they are not a city already in their own right? JRG 06:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't really understand what you're saying. Use an example. But if you're saying let's include Shoalhaven because Nowra is not a city in its own right, then you're ignoring the locality basis for cities and also ignoring the fact that Nowra is a city in its own right. If we're going to say Nowra is not a city any more now it hasn't got its own city council then we'd better remove Armidale, Bathurst, Goulburn, Grafton and Tamworth from the list too, which seems absurd.GSTQ 21:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Let's include both - the Council cities and the locality cities. Nowra is part of the City of Shoalhaven now and should be listed under that. Grafton, and the others are all cities in their own right. If we don't include all of these, then the list becomes an arbitrary definition of what is and isn't a city. JRG 00:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't quite understand your comparison. Nowra is a city in the geographical sense, that is part of the LGA called the City of Shoalhaven. Grafton is a city in the same geographical sense, and is part of the LGA called Clarence Valley. In both cases the LGA is much larger than the city, but one LGA has a name including the word "city" and the other doesn't (probably due to the proportion of the area that is urban). Yes, there are (at least) two notions of city here. One is the notion that the GNB uses, which is a town or centre of population rather than a LGA, although legal status is taken into account. Following the GNB's classification could hardly be described as arbitrary. The other notion is that of an LGA with "city" in the name. These days, the use of "city" in LGA names is becoming less and less related to the actual nature of the LGA, let alone the geographical notion of a city, but even if it were still relevant, there would be nothing wrong with restricting this list to GNB's notion of city, especially since LGAs are listed elsewhere anyway. JPD (talk) 13:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with JPD. This is meant to be a list of cities, not L.G.A's called cities. The peculiar New South Welsh government's use of the word "city" for certain councils reflects neither the use of the word by any New South Welshmen nor the use of the word elsewhere in the world, or elsewhere in Wikipedia. Perhaps some disambiguation is warranted, but surely not an inclusion of all L.G.A's called cities in this particular list. As for the Blue Mountains being included in New South Wales' list, there may very well be an L.G.A. called City of Blue Mountains, but the Blue Mountains article starts off as follows: "The Blue Mountains of New South Wales, Australia, are situated approximately 100 kilometres west of Sydney. They are a range of sandstone geological structures that reach to at least 1190 metres AHD (in the Lithgow area). The Blue Mountains are not as the name suggests a range of mountains but rather a series of cliffs surrounding a plateau with rugged eroded gorges of up to 760 metres depth..." No mention of their being a locality there, let alone a city. Yes, it does mention the municipality further down, but that's not what the article is about.GSTQ 23:44, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
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