Talk:List of capitals in the United States

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[edit] Comments

What about moving this list to simply "List of U.S. state capitals"? The current title seems overly cumbersome... - Seth Ilys 23:33, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The title you suggest might better fit U.S._state#List_of_states which includes only current ones. -- User:Docu
Perhaps. I don't interpret the title that narrowly, but that's just me. How about "List of current and former U.S. state capitals" ? - Seth Ilys 14:45, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Featured list nomination (June 2005)

Object for now - generally, an excellent list and worthy of featured status, but: it needs some references; would it be possible to add some images (say, small icons of state flags, like the UN list below); and I'm not keen on some aspects of the presentation: CAPITAL LETTERS FOR STATES are off-putting, it should be possible to make the tables the same width (using % in the table heading), and some colours (other than white and grey) would make it more interesting to look at. -- ALoan (Talk) 17:43, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Requests for new additions

I see a bunch of capitals/territories not listed (but I don't have information on), so in this section we can request additions to the list. Let me start:

  • Vermont (when independent)
  • Plymouth Colony (pre merger with Massachusetts)
  • Louisiana (when Spanish colony)
  • New Mexico (when Spanish colony)
  • Florida (can we distinguish between East and West Florida when under Spanish control?)
  • The State of Franklin
  • Oregon Country (British and US capitals, during period when both claimed it)

NoSeptember (talk) 23:24, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

-Acjelen 00:49, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • Oklahoma Territory (if it's Guthrie, the Guthrie line should indicate as such)
  • Indian Territory (if it ever had a single capital)
  • the capitals of the various nations in Indian Territory following the Removal

-Acjelen 00:35, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

NoSeptember 15:39, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • I think the proper place for many of these would be [[1]] - Johntex\talk 19:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flag Problem

Why are the flags for Massachusetts and Michigan the same? Paul, in Saudi 04:14, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I corrected that earlier (Mass. flag in Mich.), but Jengod is doing major edits of the page and reintroduced the error. I don't want to create an edit conflict, so I'll wait until he is done and fix it again. NoSeptember (talk) 04:44, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)


Why is the Confederate Navy Jack being used to represent the CSA? A much better historical choice would be the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd national flags of the CSA. --Nemesisss 14:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flags of current states

As the list is one of former (and current) capitals, the flags of the current states are, to some extent, anachronistic. Thus, I'd like to remove them. Besides, they enlarge the list excessively. -- User:Docu

They were requested multiple times by the users on the FLC page. I agree about the anachronism, but then again...these are defined by current state borders, and these are current state flags, so it does follow conceptually. jengod 17:42, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Capitals of USA/CSA

The list of capitals of the USA and CSA have gone from here - where did they go? -- ALoan (Talk) 18:11, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

They are now incorporated into the main table, organized by state. jengod 18:35, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
Because the table is not just the states' capitals, but all once and former capitals located within each U.S. state. The Confederate States of America article has a listing of that nation's capitals in a clear list. -Acjelen 18:40, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Oh, I see - good stuff. -- ALoan (Talk) 18:45, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mississippi

I updated the list of permanent Mississippi territorial and state capitals. Could someone be so kind as to add the source information? (Mississippi Historical Society) Thanks. -- Fingers-of-Pyrex 22:17, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)

Got this. :) jengod 22:35, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
DONE jengod 22:40, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Capitals in Oklahoma

This information comes from: Historical Atlas of Oklahoma by John W. Morris and Edwin C. McReynolds (Norman: Oklahoma University Press, 1965). Morris and McReynolds give no dates. No unitary capital for Indian Territory is given. The proposed State of Sequoyah is discussed and mapped, but no proposed capital is indicated. -Acjelen 22:31, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This should be in a separate article. Doesn't every Indian nation in existance today have a reservation capital? And many indian nations had capitals throughout history around the country starting during colonial times. There are probably hundreds of these and would completely overwhelm this article. A new article linked from here in the introduction would be nice though. NoSeptember (talk) 23:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Except, NoSeptember, the Indian nations of Indian Territory were neither reservations nor de-facto power centers, but territories within the United States. One way to look at it would be to say that before statehood, Oklahoma had six territorial capitals simultaneously instead of the usual one. -Acjelen 01:11, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You may be right. If otoh they are subordinate to the Indian territory government they may be considered to be similar to a county seat. I don't know, but the legal status should be sourced to justify inclusion in the list. NoSeptember (talk) 02:06, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
However, the situation is more complicated. There are not just the Five Civilized Tribes in Oklahoma. There are dozens of tribes,each with its capital in Oklahoma. For example, the Osage Nation capital is in Pawhuska. Dsmdgold
I think these will need accompanying dates or it would be cited as a reason to not feature this list. jengod 01:30, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

I think the Five Nations capitals should be kept as they were the equivalent to Territory capitals at the time - there was no "Indian Territory" capital. Maps of the time show them clearly [2]. We could add the Osage capital of Pawhuska (est. 1879) as it's usually shown as well even though it became part of Oklahoma Territory rather than Indian Territory. I'm having trouble documenting the Choctaw capital as maps put it at Atoka but web references put it at Tuskahoma and they definitely are not the same place. Kmusser 01:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] de facto capitals

Should we really call Danville the capital of the Confederacy? Just because the government fled there doesn't make it the capital. By that logic, Bordeaux was the capital of France a couple of times. john k 16:00, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If the government (legislature) formally had a session there, then it is a capital. Look at the brief tenures of some of the US capitals (Lancaster, PA for example, also some in NJ and MD I think), they fled Philly when the British approached and met in session in those places, so they are former capitals. I assume Danville is the same situation. NoSeptember 16:20, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
On what basis do we say that if the legislature formally had a session somewhere, it counts as a capital? The Dutch capital is at Amsterdam, and the Dutch parliament has never met there - it always meets at the Hague, which is not a capital. Again, the French parliament met at Tours and Bordeaux for brief periods during wars when Paris was threatened. Does this make them the capital/ On what basis do you claim that capital means "any city where the legislature has met, ever?" john k 17:12, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The only comment I'll make on this issue is that most of the entities where this comes up were not nearly as settled as the Netherlands or France--they were crumbling rebel states (CSA), far-off frontier outposts (Alaska) or newly established political entities still getting their sea legs (many of the territories and the early USA). I think in those kinds of cases, the seat of legislative activity, in lieu of a Congressional or otherwise legally mandated government, is a good situation for calling something a capital. jengod 18:32, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
I agree in most cases, but it seems to me that Danville is precisely equivalent to the French example. john k 18:43, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It is largely a definitional issue. The US has a tradition of defining their capitals as I described above and recognizes Lancaster as a capital of one day. If other countries choose to define things differently, that is fine too. In fact many governments were historically centered on the monarch, while the US has always defined the legislature as the "first" branch of government, so different perspectives are to be expected. We should accept the governnment's own call.
Also, to be technical, the US government did not recognize the CSA as a country, so from a US legal standpoint the CSA never had any capital, nonetheless, I don't think anyone objects to listing CSA capitals. NoSeptember 03:29, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I suppose the question then would be whether or not the CSA viewed Danville as being its capital for that week... john k 05:17, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Precisely, and since their traditions are those of America, they almost certainly do regard it as their capital. NoSeptember 14:11, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Almost certainly did, no? There is no CSA anymore. john k 14:43, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Their view at the time matters, not our view 140 years later. If asked at the time, I think you would hear them say "Yes, we do consider Danville to be our capital." As stated above, whether the CSA ever existed is a legal question, the US contends that this was simply an internal rebelliion against the US government. NoSeptember 15:41, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Indeed - although the official legal theory is unclear, given that states which seceded had to be readmitted to the Union. So while the CSA did not exist, it would appear that (maybe) secession is recognized to have had some legal effect. Although this is denied, as well...(I think it'd've been better, in terms of precedent, if they'd not gone through the whole readmission rigmarole, since that seems to give some legitimacy to the acts of secession). john k 17:11, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Readmission can be justified by the constitutional provision that all states have a republican form of government (and a state controlled by a rebellion psuedo-government does not); also each house of the US Congress has the right to rule on the seating of its members. So readmission is not an admission of the legal existance of the CSA. NoSeptember 19:57, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Oh, certainly it is not an admission of the legal existence of the CSA. But it does seem to be an admission that it was not just individuals who were in rebellion, but the states themselves... But this is getting rather off-topic. john k 21:39, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Brookeville, MD

The source cited for stating that Brookeville, MD, was the nation'a capital for a day does not seem to acutally mean it was the capital; it seems to just be saying it to make itself sound important. Just becuase the President worked from a house at that location does not mean it's a capital of the United States, but it simply seems to be that town's way of talking about it's history. I think a source that specifically states that the nation's capital was legally changed to Brookeville, MD, for a day needs to be found (which I doubt there is any, becuase I doubt it ever happened) or that it should be removed from the list (or at least put in quotes with an explanation saying that it was never legally a capital or something). //MrD9 00:54, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major rewrite

I hope everyone likes my changes (my version, old version) to this article, cuz it was a hellalotta work.

I created a separate section for the U.S. national capitals and the CSA capitals and put all the state capitals in one giant table. The giant table has the disadvantages that it's harder to edit and that you can't jump to a specific state from a TOC, but I feel that it is easier to read and understand, and it is able to pack more information (like statehood year, complete chronology of capitals, etc.) into less space.

I also updated the way the References are built, so when editing the page, you can find the reference information right alongside the rest of the states information instead of having to go way down to the References section. This, I hope, will encourage people to add references.

When doing this work I found that there were many states with incomplete information; the new layout makes it more obvious that certain information (especially dates) is left out.

Lemme know what you think   JEK   19:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Great. I like it. Congrats. -- User:Docu

[edit] Wisconsin

There is a missing capital of Wisconsin Territory. It was in Burlington, Iowa. Here's a website for citation purpose: [3]. I believe that the order was: 1) Belmont (?-1836), 2) Burlington (1837), and 3) Madison (1838-present). I'll leave the complicated Wikicode for someone else. I knew the capital was in Iowa for a short time, so I looked it up. Cheers! --Royalbroil 04:39, 10 July 2006 (UTC) (WikiProject Wisconsin member)

[edit] Maryland

I couldn't find any evidence that Baltimore ever served as Maryland's state capital so I removed it. Added citation for Annapolis being named capital in 1694. If someone has a citation for Baltimore feel free to add it back in. Kmusser 13:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Featured List nomination

I think this list is just about ready for a featured list nomination. It failed about a year ago for obvious reasons. What more needs to be done? — Jonathan Kovaciny (talk|contribs) 16:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I finished filling in the obvious gaps. It could probably still use more citations. The dates for Louisiana in particular were kind of sketchy. There are probably more things in the notes column that could be wikified (like "colonial capital" linking to the appropriate colony page if there is one). Kmusser 18:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, I didn't include it because I couldn't find good documentation on the dates but for Oklahoma apparently the Choctaw capital moved around quite a bit.Kmusser 18:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
One more thing, we need to add capitals for current U.S. territories - American Samoa, Guam, Puerto Rico, and U.S. Virgin Islands. Lovelac7 23:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Not necessarily. -- User:Docu

A few more things need to be cited, but the whole article is looking pretty good. — Jonathan Kovaciny (talk|contribs) 01:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] London?

Silly question, but should London be put down as a national capital (for the 13 colonies)? Lovelac7 23:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not "in" (within) the United States. -- User:Docu

[edit] National capitals

Should not be in the state capital list; for example, Princeton, despite the presence of the Continental Congress, was not the NJ Capital in 1783; including Princeton makes both the NJ sequence and the US sequence harder to follow. Similarly, Richmond has been the capital of Virginia since 1780. (The question of whether, and in what sense, Alexandria or Wheeling were capitals of Virginia is, I think, best avoided.) Septentrionalis 23:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding your change on Perth Amboy and Burlington being joint capitals of New Jersey: When you said that both towns "functioned" as capitals, do you mean they acted simultaneously as capitals, or did the seat of government rotate between the two towns like the Connecticut Legislature did between Hartford and New Haven? --MCB 10/26/06 copied from my talk Septentrionalis 03:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
It depends on which function of government you consider; I believe the Colonial Assembly did more or less alternate, but official records and offices were kept in both places, one for each Jersey. Again, on the eve of the Revolution, the Assembly met in Burlington, but the Governor's official residence was in Perth Amboy. Septentrionalis 03:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

To address part of your comment. I changed the heading of the section "state capitals" to "state capitals and capital cities by state". This describes better the table that follows. -- User:Docu

[edit] Date of Statehood

For the original 13 colonies, using the signing of the United States Declaration of Independence (which declared "That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States" [4]) as the date of statehood is a nice historical touch, but I believe the date of their admission to the Union (1787 and later) to be equally (if not more) relevant. Consider that this article pertains to states that are currently in the Union and not American states that were at one time independent.

I therefore propose adding "Admitted in..." for states that joined after a period of legal independence (Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, New Hampshire, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Rhode Island).

--Yitzhak1995 19:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree, though the precise wording is negotiable. Newyorkbrad 21:38, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Neither is correct. The 13 states were already part of the country when the current constitution was written. If you really want to catch the moment when a state went from being an independent entity to being a state as part of the USA, you would have to use the dates of ratification of the Articles of Confederation, when they actually surrendered their sovereignty. But why have a statehood date at all? That is not what this article is about. NoSeptember 01:33, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting points....

The relevant date is the date that the state's ratifying convention agreed to ratify the U.S. Constitution. On that date, as interpreted in McCulloch v. Maryland (1819) by John Marshall and in the American Civil War, each state underwent a critical transformation, in which it transferred certain crucial governmental authorities to the Federal government, and the state entirely changed its nature. A ratification year would not remove any information currently there, would not make the article any longer (vertically), and would account for the fact that states didn't surrender any crucial sovereignties to form the Articles of Confederation government. A crucial point of constitutional law is that the Articles of Confederation were ratified by states, but the Constitution was ratified by people within states.

--Yitzhak1995 09:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Messed Up Table

Someone who has more experience with tables, or indeed the person who designed this table - needs to fix it up. The top few states do not have a line between the name of the state and the various capitals. But, the line appears at Milledgeville in Georgia and goes on down the page, sometimes it disappears between Milledgeville and Iowa City (Tabbing in Firefox), but from Iowa City down to the bottom of the table there is a line there that is not present at the top of the table. I'm not sure why it appears and disappears when tabbing backwards and forwards - but it does. But it bothers me that the table is not consistent. Could someone either get rid of this line altogether - or make sure it applies to the whole table and doesn't appear and disappear when tabbing. Cheers. 155.143.221.252 06:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's just a Firefox bug, because the table syntax seems to be all okay, and Firefox sometimes renders it correctly. IE doesn't seem to have a problem with it at all. — Jonathan Kovaciny (talk|contribs) 16:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Constitution - missing chunk of time

Noticed while looking through the list that there is a break in it.

So what was the capital between 1800-05-14 and 1800-11-17 ? Ar-wiki 19:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

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