Talk:List of bus routes in Brooklyn

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There is some historical information at [1][2]. --NE2 22:39, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

1 Historical changes
2 Downtown vs. Downtown Brooklyn
3 All public routes operating in Brooklyn should be included in the table
4 More B110
5 Trackless trolleys
6 Buses by number
7 Some early franchises

[edit] Historical changes

Streetcar	Changes
2 Bergen	truncated to Canarsie Depot in 1947 (east of Canarsie Depot became part of 12); became 65 by 1969; still 65
3 Sumner	became 10 and extended over New Lots by 1969; extended into Queens ca. 1990 and renumbered 15, probably because it runs with the Q10
5 St. Johns	became 45 by 1969; still 45
7 Tompkins	became 47 by 1969; now eliminated north of Flushing Avenue and combined with the 62 as the 43
8 Church	became 35 in 1949 (as a streetcar); still 35
9 Rockaway (Canarsie Shuttle)	became 42 by 1969; still 42
10 Ralph-Rockaway	eliminated south of St. Johns Place and combined with part of the 5 as the 40 by 1969; now cut back to St. Johns Place and combined with the 78 as the 47
11 Ralph	eliminated in 1943 (redundant to the 3 and 10)
13 Gravesend-Church	eliminated by 1969
14 Wilson	became 60 by 1969; still 60
15 Crosstown	became 61 by 1969; still 61
16 Graham	became 62 by 1969; now eliminated on Flushing Avenue and combined with the 47 as the 43
17 Greenpoint	eliminated in 1945
19 Nassau	became part of the 48 in 1945
21 DeKalb	became 38 by 1969; still 38
16th	became part of the 23 by 1969; still the 23
Cortelyou Road	became part of the 23 by 1969; still the 23
24 Broadway	eliminated west of Ralph Avenue, rerouted and extended onto Atlantic Avenue east of East New York, and became 22 by 1969; became Q24 in 1989
Calvary Cemetery	became the 24 and later combined with the 29 as part of the 24-29 by 1969; now the 24
25 Fulton	still 25
26 Putnam	still 26
27 Jamaica	became 56 by 1969; became Q56 in 1989
28 Erie Basin	eliminated in 1944
29 Meeker-Marcy	truncated to Williamsburg and combined with the 24 (as the 24-29) by 1969; now just the 24 according to [3] it became the B30 "Greenpoint-Meeker Shuttle", terminating at 47th and Greenpoint [4] - apparently was the B24/29, and was discontinued ca. 1995 [5]
30 Eighth	became 70 by 1969; still 70
31 86th	became 64 by 1969; still 64
32 Fifth	became 63 by 1969; still 63
33 Hamilton	moved to end at east side of Prospect Park in 1947; now eliminated
34 Bay Ridge	combined with the 1 and realigned along part of the 21 in 1978
36 Sea Gate	extended west on the 83 and east by 1969; realigned along part of the 21 in 1978
37 Third	still 37
38 West End	eliminated by 1969
Williamsburg Bridge	became the 39 by 1969; still the 39
41 Flatbush	still 41
42 Holy Cross	eliminated by 1969 (became 43 in between???)
44 Nostrand	also 43 Nostrand Shuttle until 1945; extended south by 1969; still 44
46 Utica-Reid	still 46
47 Franklin	combined with 48 in 1945
48 Lorimer	still 48
49 Ocean	extended south by 1969; still 49
50 Bushwick	eliminated by 1969
50 McDonald	split from 69 in 1949 (as a streetcar); eliminated by 1969
52 Greene-Gates	still 52
53 Metropolitan	became the Q54 in 1989
54 Myrtle-Court	became Myrtle only by 1969 (Court became part of 75); still 54
55 Richmond Hill	became the Q55 in 1989
56 Union Av	eliminated in 1945
57 Flushing	still 57
58 Flushing-Ridgewood	became the Q58 in 1989
59 Grand	became the Q59 in 1989
63 Coney Island	split from the 68 in 1946 and later became the 68 again as a streetcar; still 68
67 Seventh	still 67
68 Smith-Coney Island	split into the 63 and 72 as a streetcar
69 McDonald-Vanderbilt	became just Vanderbilt as a streetcar; McDonald split as the 50; still 69
71 Union St	now extended east
72 Smith	split from the 68 in 1946 and later became the 75 as a streetcar; still 75
Junction	became the 72, then the Q72 in 1961; still the Q72
73 Norton's Point	became the 74 by 1969; still 74
77 Fifteenth	eliminated by 1969
82 Bergen Beach Shuttle	became parts of the 41 and 3 by 1969; still the 41 and 3
83 Norton's Point Shuttle	became part of the 36 by 1969; still part of the 36
New Lots	became part of the 10 by 1969; now part of the 15

Bus	Changes
1	three-pronged route along West End/Oriental, Emmons, and Sheepshead Bay/Y/Z (to Ocean Parkway) by ca. 1930; Emmons leg became part of 21 in 1946; Y/Z leg realigned and extended west by 1969; now realigned along part of 21, combined with 34, and partly replaced by realignment of 49
2	along Flatbush by ca. 1930; extended and truncated by 1969; still 2
3	along U with branch on Gerritsen by ca. 1930; branch became 31 and 3 extended along part of 82 by 1969; still 3
4	along 77th, 78th, Bay Ridge, and Stillwell in 1931; extended along parts of 1, 36, and 21 in 1978
5	along Bay and Kings by ca. 1930; now combined with 50 as 82
6	along Bay and M in 1931; became 9 on M and extended along 21 in 1938; extended east by 1969; now extended east along 84
7	along Kings and Saratoga in 1931; extended north in 1936; still 7
8	along Cropsey, 18th, and Foster by ca. 1930; extended over 10 in 1938 and beyond by 1969; still 8
9	along Bay Ridge, 3rd, and 60th in 1931; extended along part of 6 in 1938; extended further by 1969; still 9
10	along D by ca. 1930; extended east in 1936; became part of 8 in 1938
11	along 52nd, 53rd, 49th, and 50th in 1931; extended east in 1978
12	along Parkside, Winthrop, and East New York in 1931; extended east along part of 2 in 1947; still 12
13	along Crescent by ca. 1930; extended north along 19 by 1969; now extended north partly along 18
14	along Eastern and Sutter by ca. 1930; still 14
15	replaced the Manhattan Bridge Three Cent Line in 1929; numbered soon after; now the 51
16	along 86th, Fort Hamilton, 56th, 57th, 13th, 12th, and Caton in 1931; still 16
17	along Remsen and Utica in 1931; extended on Seaview by 1969; still 17
18	along Metropolitan, Morgan, and Wyckoff in 1931; extended along Cypress by 1969; now mostly part of 13
19	along Cypress Hills, Fresh Pond, and Gates by ca. 1930; became part of 13 by 1969
19	along Carlton and Adelphi in 1942; now eliminated
20	along Decatur etc in 1931; extended east in 1936; still 20
21	along Bay, J, and Bedford by ca. 1930; became part of 6 in 1938
21	several legs of 1 became 21 in 1946; became parts of 1, 36, and 4 in 1978
31	branch of 3 became 31 by 1969; still 31
50	began on Flatlands in 1978 (replaced anything or brand new?); now combined with 5 as 82
77	introduced in 1936; still 77
78	along Ralph by 1969; now part of the 47
80	World's Fair; short-lived
81	World's Fair; short-lived
82	combination of 5 and 50
83	introduced in 1966
84	along Flatlands and Cozine in 1968; now part of the 6
85	Army Base Shuttle; short-lived

[edit] Downtown vs. Downtown Brooklyn

I was about to revert NE2's most recent version to immediately previous. I take a bus from Downtown Brooklyn frequently, and I never refer to it as simply "downtown." Brooklyn is not a city anymore. The common neighborhood name is "Downtown Brooklyn," and is what the MTA uses. So even within the context of Brooklyn, "Downtown Brooklyn" would not sound redundant. I would restore all mentions to Downtown Brooklyn in the columns. If the problem is too many redundant links, why not just link the first appearance of a neighborhood or depot and unlink subsequent mentions? Tinlinkin 11:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] All public routes operating in Brooklyn should be included in the table

...including those operating out of Queens. The article is "List of bus routes in Brooklyn," and that is what the reader should find here.

The B110 however, should not be listed. It is not public, not does it operate as a common carrier. Jd2718 23:41, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Please discuss the main issue at Talk:List of bus routes in the Bronx.

Because the same error occurs on 5 or 6 pages, and since the editors of those pages are not necessarily in common, it will be necessary to cross post this or similar comments. I certainly don't mind directing attention the first discussion (Bronx). Jd2718 23:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

As for the B110, it's given a franchise and number by the city, and is verifiably a bus route in Brooklyn (see the sources). --NE2 23:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

It is Hassidic service for the Hassidic community. Through a quirk in the franchise law they obtained a franchise. Just is not a public route. Jd2718 23:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

If you have reliable sources for these statements, please add them to the article. But right now, all sources say that it is a privately-operated bus route run under a franchise from the city. --NE2 23:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

According to Pacific Coast Highway at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation#B110 bus? it is open to all. The sources don't say whether or not it is, but they do say what's in the article: that it's a privately-operated franchised bus route with the number B110. --NE2 23:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Pacific Coast Highway's claim that it is open to all is unsourced. In this case, including an exclusive service on a list of bus service available to the public is a problem. It does not interface with the rest of the system. It does not accept transfers. It probably does not accept most passengers. I do not know, but suspect, there is separate male/female seating (a curtain?).::::What follows is OR, but it may help if you decide to look for a source to rebut: Private Transportation was operating without a franchise, and was getting harassed for idling and stopping where there were no bus stops. The franchise gave them the right to operate without problems from City DOT. They carry their own people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jd2718 (talk • contribs) 00:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

Can you provide a source that it is not open to the public? Here's another (unreliable) source saying it is: [6] You seem to be saying that without proof that a franchised bus route is open to the public, we should assume it's not, while I'm on the other side: if it's franchised, we should include it, assuming it is open to the public unless we have a source otherwise. --NE2 00:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a source saying it is a closed-door service. If not, you're in the same boat as me. Even still is an unvalid point. It is stil a bus route. And it is in the borough of Brooklyn. Pacific Coast Highway ^{{talk • contribs}} 00:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Plenty of employers run bus services for their employees. Wikipedia does not list them. This is the same situation. Do you have a schedule? A website? A tariff? That message board that NE1 linked to describes a private bus service limited to the Hassidic community, that was clever enough to apply for a franchise so they could get busstop signs. In fact, that was exactly what happened. Jd2718 00:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

You keep changing the subject. We have sources saying that it is open door (although they are kinda "gray area-ish") and you've yet ot present some that prove otherwise. The only restriction I see is that of the religious seating customs, that's it.There is a published schedule for the route as well. (Although it's current as 2003) [7] Pacific Coast Highway ^{{talk • contribs}} 00:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

For those of you who can't find "sources", just go to the BusChat or the old BusTalk forums just look up the thread to see the real answers, if not. I found two topics on separate websites....

(1). talks about fare increase: [8] Quoting: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 Williansburg Boro Park buses fare hike public hearing Joint Public Hearing on Extension of Operating Authority of Private Transportation Corporation and Private One of New York - June 28, 2004 The Franchise and Concessions Review Committee and the Department of Transportation will hold a joint public hearing on Monday, June 28, 2004, commencing at 10:00 AM at Spector Hall, 22 Reade Street, Main Floor, Borough of Manhattan, relative to the extension of the operating authority of Private Transportation Corporation (B110 between Williamsburg and Borough Park in Brooklyn) to June 30, 2005 and the extension of the operating authority of Private One of New York, Inc., LLC, d.b.a., New York Airport Service to June 30, 2005 and a $2.50 fare increase on all routes. Copies of the proposed resolutions may be reviewed at the Department of Transportation, Passenger Transport Division, Surface Transit Unit, 59 Maiden Lane, 35th floor, New York NY 10038, commencing Monday, June 7, 2004 through Monday, June 28, 2004, exclusive of Saturdays, Sundays and holidays, between the h ours of 9:00 AM and 5:00 PM. Individuals requesting sign language interpreters should contact the Mayor's Office of Contracts, Public Hearings Unit, 253 Broadway, 9th floor, New York NY 10007 (212) 788-7490 no later than seven (7) business days prior to the public hearing. TDD users should call Verizon Relay Service
(2) The other one, explains how the bus service goes towards serving the community. : [9] Quoting: The B110 is owned and operated by Private Transportation Corp under a franchise from the New York City Department of Transportation. As such, by law, the services provided must be consistent with the regs of the NYCDOT and be available to any and all riders wishing to avail themselves of the bus route. The NYCDOT does not permit sexual segregation on it's franchised routes. In what may be a clever gimmick the name, Private Transportation Corp, which is printed on the side of the bus (as required by law) connotes exclusivity discouraging non-Jews from boarding possibly even giving them the impression the bus company has a right to prevent them from doing so.

BWCNY 05:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

This is a franchised route, not a random route run for employees. Do you have a source that ridership is restricted? --NE2 00:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Unless the scope of the article is expanded beyond MTA-operated lines, there shouldn't be an argument; the B110 should NOT be included. If you guys are willing to do this, then this discussion can continue. Larry V (talk | e-mail) 03:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem is the title is misleading, there are several dozens of routes in Brooklyn that are not run on NYCDOT franchised routes, They are charted buses. Unless we had to renamed the article to "List of NYCTA/MTA Bus routes in Brooklyn", that would solve the confusion to this problem. I think someone did that in the express routes (similar situation as to this) which unfortunately reverted by User:NE2... BWCNY 05:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

How about "list of franchised bus routes in Brooklyn"? --NE2 07:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe that newer TA routes were started without franchise. Jd2718 04:29, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The scope was never limited to MTA-operated lines, except in the intro; I fixed that. --NE2 03:20, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

By all means just leave the B110 alone in this page, and it is open to everyone who want to use this route for $2.50.... BWCNY 06:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More B110

I'm not editing this, for now. But I realized that you've got it entered as if it were a local route. It runs express between two (relatively) distant neighborhoods. Jd2718 15:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trackless trolleys

The following routes were operated by trolley coaches:[10]

23 Cortelyou: started July 23, 1930 between Coney Island Avenue and Flatbush Avenue; extended west May 27, 1932? September 17, 1932? to New Utrecht Avenue; stopped October 31, 1956
- originally Cortelyou Road
- later 62nd Street, 16th Avenue, Dahill Road, Cortelyou Road, [one-way: East 21st Street, Beverly Road, Flatbush Avenue, Cortelyou Road]
45 St. Johns: started September 14, 1948? September 19, 1948? between Civic Center and Pennsylvania Avenue; truncated May 1, 1954 to west of Ralph Avenue; stopped March 25, 1959
- [one-way: Livingston Street, Court Street, Joralemon Street, Boerum Place], Livingston Street, Flatbush Avenue, Atlantic Avenue, Washington Avenue, Sterling Place, Rogers Avenue, St. Johns Place,
- originally East New York Avenue, Liberty Avenue, [one-way: Georgia Avenue, Atlantic Avenue, Pennsylvania Avenue, St. Johns Place]
- later [one-way: Buffalo Avenue, Bergen Street, Ralph Avenue, St. Johns Place]
47 Tompkins: started November 19, 1948 between Prospect Park and Williamsburg Bridge Plaza; stopped July 27, 1960
- [one-way: Washington Avenue, Lefferts Avenue, Flatbush Avenue, Empire Boulevard], Empire Boulevard, Kingston Avenue, Fulton Street, Tompkins Avenue, Harrison Avenue, Division Avenue, Roebling Street, Bridge Plaza
48 Lorimer: started March 23, 1949 between Prospect Park and Penny Bridge; stopped July 27, 1960
- [one-way: Sullivan Place, Washington Avenue, Lefferts Avenue, Flatbush Avenue, Empire Boulevard, Franklin Avenue], Franklin Avenue, Flushing Avenue, Lee Avenue, Lorimer Street, Nassau Avenue, Varick Avenue, and Meeker Avenue
57 Flushing Avenue: started November 14, 1949 between Cadman Plaza and Brown Place; rerouted October 22, 1950 from Nassau Street to Concord Street; truncated November 4, 1950 to east of Pearl Street; truncated September 1, 1954 to west of 61st Street; truncated September 21, 1955 to east of Kent Avenue; extended west February 13, 1957 to Gold Street??; extended west January 27, 1960 to Pearl Street; stopped July 27, 1960
- originally [one-way: Sands Street, Cadman Plaza, High Street, Jay Street], Sands Street, [one-way: Hudson Avenue, Nassau Street / Sands Street, Navy Street], Nassau Street, Flushing Avenue, Grand Avenue
- later [one-way: Sands Street, Pearl Street, High Street, Jay Street], Sands Street, [one-way: Gold Street, Concord Street, Navy Street / Sands Street, Navy Street], Nassau Street, Flushing Avenue, [one-way: 61st Street, Grand Avenue, 64th Street, Flushing Avenue]
- later [one-way: Flushing Avenue, Kent Avenue, Park Avenue, Franklin Avenue], Flushing Avenue, [one-way: 61st Street, Grand Avenue, 64th Street, Flushing Avenue]
- later [one-way: Nassau Street, Gold Street, Concord Street, Navy Street], Nassau Street, Flushing Avenue, [one-way: 61st Street, Grand Avenue, 64th Street, Flushing Avenue]
62 Graham: started December 11, 1949 between Cadman Plaza and Long Island City; rerouted October 22, 1950 from Nassau Street to Concord Street; truncated November 4, 1950 to east of Pearl Street; truncated September 22, 1954 to south of Box Street; truncated September 21, 1955 to east of Kent Avenue; extended west February 13, 1957 to Gold Street??; extended west January 27, 1960 to Pearl Street; stopped July 27, 1960
- [see B57], Flushing Avenue, Graham Avenue, Driggs Avenue, [one-way: Manhattan Avenue / Driggs Avenue, Lorimer Street, Bedford Avenue], Manhattan Avenue,
- originally Vernon Boulevard, [one-way: Vernon Boulevard, 49th Avenue?, ferry landing?, 50th Avenue]
- later [one-way: Manhattan Avenue, Commercial Street, Box Street]
65 Bergen: started October 17, 1948 between Hamilton Ferry and Ralph Avenue; rerouted April 16, 1954 from Sackett Street to Bergen Street; stopped July 27, 1960
- originally [one-way: Sackett Street, Hamilton Avenue, Union Street, Smith Street], Smith Street,
- later [one-way: Bergen Street, Court Street, Sackett Street, Hamilton Avenue, Union Street, Smith Street] or [one-way: Bergen Street, Court Street, Union Street, Smith Street],
- Bergen Street, [one-way: Bergen Street, Ralph Avenue, St. Johns Place, Buffalo Avenue]

[edit] Buses by number

#	Date	Streetcar name
B1	1919
B2	1922
B3	1922
B4	1931
B5	1924
B6	1931
B7	1930
B8	1925
B9	1931
B10	ca. 1930?
B11	1931
B12	1931
B13	1921
B14	1923
B15	1929
B16	1931
B17	1931
B18	1931
B19	ca. 1930?
B20	1931
B21	ca. 1930?
B22	??
B23	1930	Avenue C Line
B24	1930	Calvary Cemetery Line
B25	1941	25 Fulton Street Line
B26	1941; 1950	26 Putnam Avenue Line
B27
B28
B29	1939	29 Meeker and Marcy Avenues Line
B30
B31	1922 (renumbered from B3B later)
B32
B33	1942	33 Hamilton Avenue Line
B34	1949	34 Bay Ridge Avenue Line
B35	1956	35 (8 until 1949) Church Avenue Line
B36	1946	36 Sea Gate Line
B37	1942	37 Third Avenue Line
B38	1947	38 West End Line ???
B38	1949	22 DeKalb Avenue Line
B39	1948	Williamsburg Bridge Local
B40	1951	10 Ralph and Rockaway Avenues Line
B41	1951	41 Flatbush Avenue Line
B42	1951	9 Rockaway Parkway Line
B43	1951	42 Holy Cross Line
B44	1951	44 Nostrand Avenue Line
B45	1947	5 St. Johns Place Line
B46	1951	46 Utica and Reid Avenues Line
B47	1947	7 Tompkins Avenue Line
B48	1947	48 Lorimer Street Line
B49	1951	49 Ocean Avenue Line
B50	1947	50 Bushwick Avenue Line
B50	1956	50 McDonald Avenue Line; 69 McDonald and Vanderbilt Avenues Line until 1949
B51
B52	1941	52 Greene and Gates Avenues Line
B53	1949	53 Metropolitan Avenue Line
B54	1949	54 Myrtle Avenue and Court Street Line
B55	1950	55 Richmond Hill Line
B56	1947	27 Jamaica Line
B57	1948	57 Flushing Avenue Line
B58	1949	58 Flushing-Ridgewood Line
B59	1949	59 Grand Street Line
B60	1951	14 Wilson Avenue Line
B61	1951	15 Crosstown Line
B62	1948	16 Graham Avenue Line
B63	1949	32 Fifth Avenue Line
B64	1948	31 86th Street Line
B65	1947	2 Bergen Street Line
B66	1949	split from 54 Myrtle Avenue and Court Street Line
B67	1951	67 Seventh Avenue Line
B68	1955	63 (68 until 1949?) Coney Island Avenue Line; 68 Smith Street-Coney Island Avenue Line until 1946
B69	1950	69 Vanderbilt Avenue Line; 69 McDonald and Vanderbilt Avenues Line until 1949
B70	1949	30 Eighth Avenue Line
B71	1945	71 Union Street Line
B72	1949	Junction Boulevard Line
B73
B74	1948	73 Norton's Point Line
B75	1951	75 (72 until 1949?) Smith Street Line; 68 Smith Street-Coney Island Avenue Line until 1946
B76
B77	1936
B78
B79
B80	1939?
B81	1939?
B82	pre-1946
B83	1966
B84	1968
B85
B86
B87
B88	1970s