Talk:List of U.S. military vessels named after women

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The article says "Few U.S. military vessels have been named after women". This seems to be false. A look through vessels starting with "A" includes Addie and Carrie, Adela, Alice, Amanda, Amanda Moore, Amelia, Andromeda, Anna B. Smith, Annabelle, Annie, Annie E. Gallup, Antigone, Aphrodite, Arethusa, Arletta, Artemis, Athene, Augusta Dinsmore, and Aurora. Not as many as named after men, but not "few", either. So the article needs some clarification. Gdr 18:44, 2005 Jan 6 (UTC)

The difference between this list and yours is that they all were named when they were civilian ships. Few military vessels have been named (launched, christened) with a woman's name. Or put another way, there are military ships with women's names and military ships named for women.

I've changed the text and hopefully clarified this.Jinian 19:19, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ships named for women

The list of ships named after women was designed to list ships named after women, not ships with women's names. For example, USS Marie (SP-100) retained her former name. She was not named for a woman by the military.

The difference may be subtle, but it's important to bound the list properly. Perhaps we can create a separate list of ship's with women's names, but I'm not sure how useful or interesting that would be. Unless you have some heartburn with this, I'd like to remove your recent additions to List of U.S. military vessels named after women. Jinian 19:58, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

Well I agree it is perhaps a subtle difference, but the page already includes ships whose name came from somewhere else. Remember that when the ship is commissioned, regardless of what the name came from or how it was chosen, it is still being brought in under that name by the Navy. The page is about military vessels named for women, which is just exactly what those vessels are. Nautical 20:09, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You may note that I originally created that page so I know precisely what that page is about and why those names are there. Only one ship had her former name retained (Harriet Bloomer) and she had been named by the CSN. There's is nothing unique about civilian ships named for women. We might as well have a page about ships named for sea animals. Which we could, but what would be the point? Again, let me suggest that we move "Ships that happen to have a woman's name" to such a list and preserve the nature of this list that I intended. Jinian 20:25, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

It may not be unique to have a civilian ship named for a women, but those are military vessels, commisioned by the US Navy. I understand the difference between the Navy actually selecting the name vs. it keeping a former name which is why I put it down below. However, it is still in the spirit of the article as the Navy still commissioned them as vessels named after women, and many did as much or more for the Navy as many of the other vessels. Nautical 20:42, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps we can split the list more specifically between vessels which retained women's names and vessels given names by the Navy.

Again, I'm intimately familiar with the spirit of the article -- and it has nothing whatsoever to do with what the ships "did for the Navy" and everything to do with what the Navy did for women or what women did for the Navy. Literally hundreds of destroyers have been named for men, and only two warships have been named by the Navy for women. That's the point, the spirit and the intent of the article. Jinian 20:51, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

That has to do with naming criteria, ships often get named after people have been in the Navy- captain's, award receipients, etc., but historically there have not been a lot of women in the Navy. The Navy only names a limted amount of ships after people are not actually in the navy, such as presidents. This is just tradition, not some sort of wierd bias and will change as there are more women in the navy (heck, there all "she's" anyway). The shore patrol and other vessels were commissioned with the names of women by the Navy, this is what was important- that the vessel bore a women's name.

Which ones were decided upon by the navy and which one's were not is difficult to go through, they were commisioned regardless. Some names that the navy didn't want did get renamed though, for example the Friedrich Der Grosse got renamed Huron the day it was commisioned in 1917. There were even ships renamed from a male name to a female name by the navy, such as the George C. Henry, which in ww2 was recommissioned as Victoria.

The vessels are US military vessels named after women, they were sunk, fought, and served on just like the other vessels. They are the names the navy chose to commission them with and were named after women. How this name was arrived at is just a detail of that ships history, not a determiner to if it was us military vessel named after a women. Nautical 21:40, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As a side issue, should we move this talk to the article discussion? Nautical 21:48, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The intent wasn't ever to show a (real, implied, weird, whatever) bias, but to highlight the historical facts that you've mentioned (i.e., few ships named for people not in the Navy + few women in the Navy = few ships named by the Navy for women). The fact that there are so few makes the ones have been chosen unique and therefore worthy of an encylclopedic article. It's much less interesting that a ship named for some random ship owner's lover ended up in the Navy. We don't create lists just to create lists. The common thread must hold some significance, and simply being a woman's name isn't enough.

We can move this discussion anywhere, but please respond to my suggestion that we highlight this critical difference between the ships that were on the list and the ones you added. Or, since you seem to be stuck on the title of the article, perhaps we can rename it to something else - "List of ships named by the Navy to honor women"? Jinian 22:19, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

Ok I will work on the page to cover the bases better. The article needs to outline all the military vessels named after them and how they were named. The ships commissioned as a women's name honor a women regardless of how its come by, as the choice of naming when the ships is commissioned is open. How that name results is from a multitude of different things for military vessels, and is detail of it history- the name is honored by it being commission with that name. Nautical 22:35, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've included the links that clarify the difference between naming a ship and commissioning a ship. I disagree that the act of commissioning a ship with a woman's name is the same thing as honoring that woman. After all, the Navy didn't even record which "Marie" is "honored" by SP-100. Hopefully, we'll get this to a point though where we can NPOV this. If any of the SP ships you've listed can be shown to be named by the Navy, then please move them "above the line".

Thanks, I think the article is stronger and more clear now. Jinian 03:00, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

I didn't mean to suggest that they were honored in the same way, just that they were US military vessel named after a women. This I considered a form of honor in general (not extended to some ship names), and certainly to the cause of naming ship after women. It is confusing when the title suggests the article lists US military vessel named after women, but only use a very narrow definition, which is why I though it important to be more inclusionist. I don't have a problem clearly distinguishing between these in the article, but any ship named for a women deserves mention here. I think the current article, after your re-write achives this well enough for my standards. I will keep an eye out for ship of this genre, to hopefully make the listing more complete. Nautical 03:48, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Shenandoah

It was my understanding that the airship in this case was mean for literal meaning of the indian word- 'daughter of the star'. If your dead sure that in this case it was just meant to be for the river though then I agree it shouldn't be here. Nautical 05:31, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

DANFS states what every USN ship was named for (that it covers). All ships named Shenandoah were named for the river. [1] [2] [3] Jinian 10:53, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

To clarify, when I say, "All ships", that includes the airship. Please revert your revision of my edit. Jinian 11:39, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

No problem, I did some digging as well after and came to the same conclusion. I agree it was named for the river, its just that because it was a aircraft,they made a bigger deal out of indian meaning of the word in some places. Nautical 20:24, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mary Sears

Added 2 December 2005. brand new registered user. Section should be reviewed for rules, matching stle, etc.

Thanks

WmFOj 23:27, 2 December 2005 (UTC)