Talk:List of Space Marine Chapters

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Contents 1 Page creation 2 Homebrews 2.1 The Cull 2.2 Further Removals 3 Storm Ravens 4 Destruction of the Lamenters 5 Black Library sources 6 Notability / sources 7 Question on Sources 8 Rainbow Warriors 9 Raptors 10 Valedictors 11 Blood Dragons 12 Other Traitor Chapters 13 Warp ghosts 14 Subjacators 15 Red Scorpions 16 Night Scopions 17 Steel Confessors? 18 Relictors 19 Layout 20 Terror Tigers 21 Wolf Brothers 22 Culls 23 The Remnants/Skull Reavers 24 Lost Prophets of Horus Removed 25 Flesh Eaters and FleshEaters.net's Fan Fiction 26 18.6 Sacred fury

[edit] Page creation

I've created this article in an attempt to help clean up the Space Marines (Warhammer 40,000) article, by removing the large chunk of text that was the list of Later Founding Chapters.

Over the next few days, I will try to add as much information as possible, and hope to end up with a canon list (there are several here that I believe are fan creations and not a part of Games Workshop canon. Please help in any way you can. Saberwyn 06:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Homebrews

These Chapters, as far as I believe, are fan creations, not canon. By canon, I mean that the Chapter must be abe to produce at least a single line of material for this article, derived from either a Rulebook, a Codex, or a Games Workshop publication. Articles from White Dwarf Magazine are a case-by-case basis.

• Avalon Blades
• Eternity's Guardians
• Emperors Blood
• Hellhawks
• Rangers of Khar
• Sons of Light
• Vanguard Legion

If someone can confirm or deny their existence, I will be much appreciative, but I will be deleting these entries, along with all entries bearing no information, in a few days time. Saberwyn 22:50, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Cull

For every Chapter name I didn't recognise from the various codexes and rulebooks, I plugged "Chapter name + Warhammer" into google. These are my results

• Avalon Blades - Zero results. Removing Warhammer from the string brought up an odd kind of celing fan. Gone
• Eternity's Guardians - Wikipedia, 40K based wikis and message board queries about if they're canon or not, which go unreplied. Gone
• Emperors Blood - "...my own DIY chapter (Emperors Blood). Found on a message board. Gone
• Hellhawks - Personal chaper of a mod-wannabe on a 40K fanfiction site. Gone
• Rangers of Khar - All results are for various wikis. Gone
• Sons of Light - Personal chaper of a mod-wannabe on a 40K fanfiction site. Gone
• Vanguard legion - Lists of online gaming clans. Gone

I'm going to wipe these now, along with any entries that are name only. Saberwyn 23:30, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Further Removals

• Storm Dragons - Homebrew Chapter, notable for having female Marines, which contradicts canon. Removed 03:09, 16 October 2005 (UTC), Saberwyn

• "Brotherhood of Light" and "Crusaders of Ultra" - No Google responses for "*chapter*" "Space Marine". Deleting these chapters 23:54, 25 October 2005 (UTC), Saberwyn

• Storm Ravens - Founded in the 40th millennium, but also the Raven Guard survivors of the Drop Site Massacre and led by ex-Imperial Fists Librarians. If that ain't Homebrew, I don't know what is! Deleted 03:17, 31 October 2005 (UTC), Saberwyn

• Another cull...
  1. Storm Dragons (Again) - I have seen no evidence of a canon chapter under this name.
  2. Mentor Legion - Not a Second Founding Chapter as listed in 3rd or 4th edition Codex: Space Marines. (Apparently in 1st ed, but not a Second Founding Chapter.
  3. Hawk Lords - Chapter is real but information beyond first paragraph is fancruft.

Removing/editing all 03:51, 17 November 2005 (UTC), Saberwyn

• In the past week I've removed Crimson Shades, Thylacines, Puke Drinkers, & Solar Eagles. I could only find information proving the first chapter was official (listed simply as being 'known in name only' and not from the novels), the Thylacines only resulted in vague unrelated references, and the lastest couldn't be found at all. Unless they're extremely new I'm sticking with the descision to remove their listings as fancruft. --Utsanomiko 21:31, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Thanks for the help! --Pak21 10:37, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Storm Ravens

Erm... If a chapter were to specialize in last stands, wouldn't they all be dead?  :p Just an observation; not sure what if anything to do about it. Rogue 9 23:11, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

• I am suspect about that one, now that you mention it. Saberwyn 01:48, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Destruction of the Lamenters

Does anyone have a canonical source as to whether the Lamenters were completely destroyed by the Tyranids or not? Various IPs have now edited this both ways. Cheers --Pak21 09:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

• Let's answer my own question: to quote from the UK Games Workshop site: "Today, barely three companies of the Lamenters are at large in the galaxy, and it would seem their curse of sorrow and ill fortune follows them still". Unless there is "more" canonical evidence pointing the other way, I'll revert things to the version saying "almost" destroyed. --Pak21 09:34, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
• I'll support that move. Saberwyn 09:34, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Black Library sources

Is a reference to a Space Marine Chapter which is only made within a Black Library (or pre-Black Library) novel considered canon, or must it be backed up with further references from a rulebook, codex etc? I believe so, based on the text at THIS Wikipedia article, but was not certain, so I wanted to confirm that others shared this point of view before making any amendments. The Chapter I have in mind is The Terror Tigers, mentioned in Ian Watson's Harlequin novel (pages 119-120 in my hardback edition - don't know about the paperback). --Helicon_One 20:34 22 January 2006

• What's the chapter, whats the reference, and how 'important' is it to the book(s) the chapter features in? -- Saberwyn 01:52, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
• If it only gets mentioned on a page or two, I really don't think there's enough material to safely add it. -- Saberwyn 09:25, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notability / sources

What would people think about a policy that says that any new additions to the list get deleted on sight unless they include (canon) sources? Too draconian?? Cheers --Pak21 15:00, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I generally work to this rule anyway, so I support it. It can help to prevent articles from becoming madly uncontrollable. -Localzuk ^(talk) 15:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure the problem is the lack of enforced citation (as it seems many of us check for sources anyway and delete guilty entries). The issue seems to be ones who don't realize this isn't the place for unofficial Chapters. The article simply states in its first sentence it's a canonical list, and I suspect some don't recognize that meaning. I think what it needs is an extra sentence roughly stating "This list does *not* include fan creations, Golden Demon Winners, Chapters known exclusively by name, and White Dwarf creations (in general)".

That should at least prevent honestly mistaken contributors from adding semi-official ones like Jade Warriors or Crimson Shades, which are the hard ones to verify. It won't stop the cheesy DIYs, but those are honestly obvious to spot and so juvenile they're borderline vandalism. If it fails to curb either group, go ahead and make the source policy official. --Utsanomiko 06:20, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. I've added something to the start – let's see what effect this has. Cheers --Pak21 13:32, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question on Sources

Well, first to all as statement, that informations gathered from Black Library novels are not to be fully trustet (as example, in "Warrior Brood" is shown a really miserable picture, don't even dare to trust this novel). Then I would be pleased to know whre the informations about the "Scythes of the Emperor" come from, because I couldn't find anything in the WWW.

A worried User. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.145.251.221 (talk • contribs) .

• In regard to the Black Library novels, they are only used as secondary sources. However, they are canon, so what they say is "truth" (for a given value of "true"). Secondly, the Scythes information is from much older sources than most players possess... I'd have to track down one of my mates and cull through all his 1st and 2nd edition material to find where it was pulled from. -- Saberwyn 21:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the fast reply. But I'm afraid the sources for my worries aren't from the 1./2. edition, because I like to know where the informations about the Scythes in the damocles crusade come from, which can only be 3./4. Edition material. Thanks a lot. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.145.210.90 (talk • contribs) .

Found it. Damocles Gulf Crusade. Page 58-60 of the first Tau codex. -- Saberwyn 09:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rainbow Warriors

Anyone know if this is canon or not? I've never heard of them, but there are some references around on the web mentioning them in Rogue Trader contexts. On the other hand, they are also mentioned as a successor chapter. Cheers --Pak21 12:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

They're existing since '87, from the beginning of Rogue Trader. But there's nothing else known about them.

Rainbow Warriors are mentioned in a few places - the first one that comes to mind was a big list of chapters imnm one of the catalogues GW made. They do sounds kinda suspect, but I think they're an Ultramarines decendant. Ryan Magley 04:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Raptors

The Space Marine Chapter Gallery clearly shows the Raptors as having a dull grey-green "camoflague" colour scheme. What sources do we have for the reversion to blue/yellow after third edition? (I'm guessing Fire Warrior, but I don't have a copy...).

More generally, I'll started a discussion on the canonicity of the chapter gallery at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Warhammer 40,000/Inclusion Guidelines#Space Marine Chapter Gallery.

• Fire Warrior was Third Edition era, shortly after the Tau first appeared. I've got a funny feeling that this was where the change was made to grey-green, but don;t quote me on that. As for reversion, none of my bro's 4th-ed books show the Raptors at all, so I can't verify. -- Saberwyn 20:59, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
  • How To Paint Space Marines shows the 'reversion'. -- saberwyn

[edit] Valedictors

In the case of chapters/legions like this, I suggest that it would be best to simply present the evidence, contradictory though it may be. In this case there are is a rather large (15 page) article about the Valedictors, complete with chapter organization, colour schemes, symbols, war machines, etc, and a full battle report (12 pages), all stating unequivically that they participated in the Heresy. This is contradicted by a single line in a list of Marine Chapters in WD235. To say that one source is canon and the other is not is not, in the opinion of this writer, ours to make. Like the situation with the Raptors' colour scheme, above, we should simply present the evidence in an evenhanded fashion, regardless of what sort of universe-shattering implications said evidence might imply.

• Canon, in reference to the 40k universe, has changed over the course of the four editions of the game. Information is correct until contradicted. The status of the Valedictors has been contradicted, both by the WD article you cited, and by the Legion lists in Codex: Space Marines (3rd and 4th ed). I'd be more than happy to accept that these guys were once a Legion, but they are no longer a canonical Legion. -- Saberwyn 21:13, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
• The concept of canonicity is borrowed from theology. Using the Christian Bible as an example: When the Old Testament (written earlier) is contradicted by the New Testament (written later), one does not discard the Old Testament as "non-canon," or pretend that the offending passage is no longer valid. One must attempt to understand and reconcile the whole, occasionally through rather convoluted logic. When understanding is impossible, one must simply accept the apparant paradox and move on. In this case, we have two sources of equal canonicity (both WD articles) which appear to directly contradict eachother. We either need to find a theory which fits the facts, and doesn't contradict any other existing canon, or, if that is impossible, accept the paradox and move on. On the subject of the legion lists, they are quite explicitly left with two empty slots in them, indicating merely that by M41, the records of those legions have been lost. Well, I'm going to create an account rather than posting under these various IP numbers.
  • A few points in reply
    1. The New Testament was not designed to 'replace' the Old Testament. Warhammer 40,000 is not a mainstream religion with a several-thousand-year history, and doesn't look like becoming one anytime soon. Also, the two Testaments of the Bible look at 2 different periods: Pre-Christ and Post-Christ (note I'm really generalising here, I don't study the Bible), was written in hindsight over several long periods of time by many different people, and can be considered historical. However, all the fluff for the 40k fictional universe is designed specifically for the 41st millennium-based game, was written by a small number of people, who have later made sweeping changes to the original information (Squats is one example that springs to mind, the almost complete ignoration of much information from the Rogue Trader-era is another).
    2. We have two articles, one written after the other. Without seeing the articles themselves, I can't comment fully, but in most fictional universes, newer material over-rides older material.
    3. Legion lists: Games Workshop said at the time they first created this list was that the two "deleted" Legions were deliberately left blank so players could make up their own, non-canonical legions. If I can find that declaration again, I'll cite it.
    4. We either need to find a theory which fits the facts, and doesn't contradict any other existing canon... This statement is a direct contravention of the Wikipedia:No original research policy. For a Wikipedia article, we can either accept that they were a Legion, but aren't anymore, or we can pray one of the Powers That Be over at Nottingham write up something for White D solving the problem. We can not do this ourselves. -- Saberwyn 09:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I have to say I'm with Saberwyn on this one: the concept of "current" canon is something which is well established within fictional universes, and the current canon states that the Valedictors are not a First Founding Legion. The inconsistency is worth noting, though. Cheers --Pak21 10:02, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

• I don't entirely agree with this idea, that current canon replaces old canon (it doesn't seem to be supported by the "canon - fiction" article," for one thing. This sort of thing would lead to the Sensei Cult of the Star Child to be retconned into a Tzeentchian Cult. I consider the "Marvel Universe" approach (with everything being crammed into a single box) to be inappropriate to the 40K universe, where ignorance rules, lies guard the truth, and history is revised by the powers that be. The Squats are a partcularly bad example, by the way, as they are merely conspicuous by their absense; they haven't been mentioned much lately. No one ever said that they never existed, they just don't write about them very often. They still apear in some official sources, however. All that aside, I am satisfied with the current revision of the Valedictor's entry, so this is probably dust in the wind.

--Pariahpress 18:59, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blood Dragons

This looks very much like fancruft to me: can anyone cite a canonical source? Cheers --Pak21 14:47, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

• Fancruft. Removed. -- Saberwyn 09:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other Traitor Chapters

Whilst looking thorugh the list i noticed that severeal traitor chapters were missing, namely: The Pyre Children of Purgatos Warp Ghosts - (added) Extinction Angels - (added) The damned company of Lord Caustos - (added)

I know they arn't fan created because they featured in the Chaos collecters guide (along with the Traitor legions) and in Codex: Chaos Space marines (along with the Steel Cobras, Violators and Sons of Malice)

Will they be added to the list? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.157.168.41 (talk • contribs) .

Be bold, especially as it looks like you're that one with the verifiable source for the information. Cheers --Pak21 15:48, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I've added the Damned company of Lord Caustos, and was wondering where should the Pyre go? I the "p" or "T" sections? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shock Trooper (talk • contribs) .

"P", possibly dropping the "The" prefix altogether (if you see what I mean...). Also, if you could add the source from which you got each piece of information in a "References" subsection, that would be much appreciated. Cheers --Pak21 17:46, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, i've added several other traitor chapters but i won't add the "children of Purgatos" or The "Pyre", because i couldn't find any info on them.

[edit] Warp ghosts

in uk WD 281 p44 it mentions a chapter called "warp ghosts" in the list of eye of terror chaos forces. they're listed as "a thankfuly rare example of a formerly loyal space marine chapter that abandoned its vows of fealty to the emperor" check it out please. Invisible_pyromanic_leprechaun

They arn't a fancruft chapter, i will add what little info their is on them next. Shock 15:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Subjacators

Do you think i should add some more info on them? I know that around twenty of the first company turned into a race of aliens (Cell-kin). Shock 15:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

If you can provide a source for this information, such as the WD article or werever this info came from, go for gold, mate. -- saberwyn 01:38, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Red Scorpions

A large datadump was placed in the Red Scorpions section today. I have moved it to "List of Space Marine Chapters/Red Scorpions" for the time being, as I think that first, it may be a copyvio. Second, if not copyvio, there would be enough info to support an individual article, at which time it can be moved to Red Scorpions. I will contact the anon user and ask a few questions. -- saberwyn 01:51, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

• The datadump subpage has been deleted as a copyvio. -- saberwyn 23:38, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Night Scopions

Sounds pretty fancruft, mainley because the seem to share a planet with the Salamanders...(They both come from "Nocturne", or "Nocturn" as the persons put it...

Fancruft. Will delete. Cheers --Pak21 18:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Steel Confessors?

I get some hits implying that they were the centrepiece of a major battle at a UK event, but can't verify what's here, and am not sure there's enough to justify entry here. Thoughts? -- saberwyn 10:27, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm posative they are a Canon chapter. Look here-[1] Check the 40k piece on the page. Shock 09:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's any dispute they were part of that battle, but is the information in the article verifiable? It's certainly not from that link. Cheers --Pak21 09:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

It's the only thing i can find. Shock 09:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

At this point, I'd normally suggest asking the editor who added the information for confirmation one way or the other. Unfortunately, the Steel Confessors were added by an AOL IP, 195.93.21.38, so that plan's pretty much out. I'll tag the entry with {{not verified}}, and I suggest that if no evidence is forthcoming in a week (ie by June 9, 2006), then we remove it. Objections? Cheers --Pak21 10:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I think i've verified it, in WD317 (UK edition) it shows a model of the chapter master of the Steel Confessors, and mentions it was used with the chapter in the Gamesday 2005 Mega Battle. Shock 15:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relictors

What's the source on them being Excommunciated? While I've been able to find a few sources listing them as such online, I've been unable to find anything that gives an offical source (such as WD#whatever) where they have been said to be such. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kaziel (talk • contribs) .

http://www.ironhands.com/chapters.htm lists the references for the Relictors as being WD 248 and 281. If anyone has either of those, they could check. Cheers --Pak21 20:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The Issue that mentions them become Excommunicated was WD issue 295 (UK). Shock 17:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Layout

Might it be better to move all of the references to the bottom of the page and use numbers to reference them? That way each entry could have (at least) one reference without having multiple redundant references throughout the article, and the article would read better (one wouldn't keep having to read references unless one wanted to click on the number to check it). --Pariah Press 01:57, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Terror Tigers

Can anyone with a copy of Harlequin (or anything else containing information about the Terror Tigers) flesh out their entry a bit, please? --Pariah Press 22:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

• Added information from Harlequin. Is anyone aware of additional material on the Tigers from a WD article? The entry claims that there is some, but nobody seems to have seen it. Helicon One, 21 October 2006, 00:45am

[edit] Wolf Brothers

The Wolf Brothers were NOT wiped out by inquisitional forces for unchecked mutations. They followed a Dark Eldar force, after routing them, into the webway, which closed behind them. No contact since then. This information was pulled from Index Astarte: Space Wolves

[edit] Culls

• The Pyre. Nothing beyond very basic coloursceme info for this chapter (ie zero fluff)
• Rising Sons. Can find no canonical information. However, these are supposed to be "samurai space marines"

I'm alos suspect about:

• Steel Confessors (Adeptus Mechanicus-founded chapter). Yes, I know it was at UK Games Day 2005, but where's the fluff? At least someone whack a source on!

-- saberwyn 22:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Not sure if this is the proper way to reply to a discussion, but anyway - If The Pyre has been culled, then why is it still in the list? In fact why are any of the Renegade Space Marines featured in the 3rd edition Chaos Codex included? AFAIK there is no fluff for any of them.Juckto 12:05, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Remnants/Skull Reavers

I can't find any other referance to them. They sound like a fan chapter since they are made up of recruits from many other chapters. They also have a Chapter-Master-Chaplain. Someone source this or delete it, but I'm fairly sure it's fan made.

• Deleted. --Pariahpress 05:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lost Prophets of Horus Removed

First of all they are just some fan made thing, and we not supposed to have original works here, second their fluff is totally implausible, and directly contradicts the canon timeline of Tau (moves Tau discovery, and reunification by Ethereals by at least 8400 years back). BTW can we move that worning at the top of this page about no original content to the article so everyone can see it even if they don't grace us with their presents here? Finally can someone check that Sons of Malice do exist? They make reference to a past god of chaos Malal, which I'm fairly certain only existed in Warhammer Fantasy and never in 40K. Keije 03:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

This site (which is pretty good for these things) gives references of both the 3rd ed Codex: Chaos Space Marines (2nd edition) and White Dwarf, so I'm fairly confident about them. Cheers --Pak21 09:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flesh Eaters and FleshEaters.net's Fan Fiction

A large Paragraph and the second-to-last sentence "This was changed at some point in the chapter's history to black armour with red lower legs." are both non-canon information from the rather popular Flesh Eaters fan project website. Such information needs to either be removed from this article or be specifically preceeded with 'in the ficiton created by...' or somesuch. As much as I am a fan of his work, I think it simply needs to be removed. --70.56.248.160 04:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Isn't much of this from an INdex Astares article from White Dwarf? Darkson - BANG! 18:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

You're most likely thinking of Flesh Tearers, a Second Founding Chapter. Flesh Eaters are third and only notably mentioned in Rogue Trader. --70.56.248.160 22:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and cleaned the entry up. It seems to have ballooned up recently with speculation and superfluous discussion of Blood Angels traits. I'll have to look over my copy of Rogue Trader to determine whether the 'distrusted by the Imperium' paragraph comes from it or if yet again someone has confused Flesh Eaters with the Flesh Tearers' background from Index Astartes and Armageddon. --Utsanomiko 23:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 18.6 Sacred fury

Apart from the fact it's not in the correct place (should be first or second under S) has anyone heard of this chapter, or is it well disguised fancraft? I honestly can't recall ever seeing this chapter listed anywhere. Darkson - BANG! 09:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Probably fan made... I've certainly never heard of them. And googling for "Sacred Fury" "Space Marine" gets nothing... --Falcorian ^(talk) 18:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, removed as of this time, easy to revert if it is genuine. Darkson - BANG! 22:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

My apologies for adding this to the main page. I do have documentation (albeit rather obscure) from a citidel magizine from 1991(with picture). (i still have a photo copy) That said i am still unsure of the name of the chapter( artical does not say "space marine chapter:sacred fury). (this was my inspiration for taking up 40k) id like to know more please help.(anglomanii@gmail.com)