Talk:List of Roma people

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The page on David Essex states that he is the grandson of an Irish Traveller. Since you have quite appropriately distinguished Irish Travellers from Roma in many places, does this information not preclude his name from appearing here?

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[edit] Dispute tag needed on list of Roma page?

There seem to be a large number of people listed on this page that have dubious at best connections to possibly be Rom. I am unsure how to progress on this page because of the sheer number of questionable claims to Romani bloodlines. I personaly have a issue with Bill Clinton being listed here based on Ian Hancocks claims that he was Romani, it is highly disputable. Below are some other good claims agians others on this list and there are others I may look into further to see how they got on this list in the first place.

Michelle Branch has noted in passing that her great grandmother was a fortune teller and gypsy. The usage could suggest a gypsy lifesstyle and not ethnicity. If this assumtion is correct this would mean that she is only 1/8th Romani. Is this list intended to include anyone famous that might have a decendant of romani stock?

>To add to the above There are people who are Roma, Sinti or mixed Roma and Sinti; then there are people who have ancestry from these families and how many of these there are depends on how far you go back - most Europeans have somewhere in their past at least 1 Sinti or Roma ancestor. The definition of the Gypsy and Road Travellers Federation is that anyone with a quarter or more Romani (Sinti/Roma) ancestry is counted as a Romani automatically but some of the tribes only count people who are full blooded from their tribe as there is even a dispute what constitutes Romani among some. Surely given that amongst the Romani there is a dispute as to which elements are trully so there needs to be an exact definition not only based on proportion of ancestry but also on which actual ancestry counts at Romani.

Also if someone has decided that they do not wish to be counted as Romani, even if they are full blooded Romani in terms of ancestry are they still Romani any more than say most of the population of the Shetland Isles is Viking?


[edit] Concerning Ibrahimović

Whoever is still adding Zlatan Ibrahimović to this list needs to stop! Ibrahimović is 1/2 Bosniak and 1/2 Bosnian Croat!

23:50, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Whoever is still deleting Zlatan Ibrahimović to this list needs to become better informed, as he is NOT Bosnian but Swedish-born Bosnian Rom of Croat Bosnian mother.

[edit] Mother Teresa is a Roma woman?

I don't think so.

Tom Jones was the son of a Welsh miner but there has been no suggestion of any Roma ancestry. Ava Gardner? Rita Hayworth was mixed English and Spanish (I don't know about Roma). A lot of the names given in the Media bit are dubious to say the least especially as the Roma and the Sinti are 2 distinct groups and it was mainly Sinti in the UK and I don't that most of them are that either, indeed one notable name left off is David Essex who is well known to be English Romani.

Yul Brynner was of mixed Russian and Mongolian ancestry, he played music in some Russian Roma nightclubs but he wasn't of them - someone obviously is just picking up on references to Romani in people's life or even in many cases films they have appeared in (Ava Gardner's appearance in Barefoot Contessa doesn't mean she was Romani). No doubt at some stage someone will add Christopher Lee although the only suggestion that he might be of Romani ancestry is that the name Lee is the most common English Romani name, but then again it is generally quite a common English name generally, some Romani in a restaraunt he was in once recognised him and claimed he might be Romani although maybe they didn't realise that his foreign looking appearance owes more to his mother coming an Italian aristocratic family than anything else.

Mother Teresa was a Macedonian Roma woman

This list is disputed, it should be structured on facts on on basis of guesses about someones ancestry.

There is no guesses,She was Roma, as to the concern about what constitutes someone with Romany blood,-as long as one of your ancestors is Roma.People with Native American blood even if it is 1/100,are still considered Native American by the US Government, even if they have blond hair and blue eyes, people still have Roma blood regardless of with your list says. It only takes a few generations of mixing to produce people who don't resemble Roma,some 1/2 Native Americans or Mexicans have blond hair blue eyes,my dad is half Roma, and for the most part he looks white and you would'nt think anything else. So it should'nt be surprising that many different people have Roma blood.Here in Oklahoma I thought I was alone in the fact that I knew I was part Romany and no one else, I was mistaken

Karl Malden's father was not Roma, his father was Serb and his mother was Czech. I am not sure about Ibrahimović but i think that he said in an interwiew that his father is Bosniak. In Balkan states or former Yugoslavia itermarriages between Roma people and others are very uncommon, partialy because of isolation of Roma communities and mostly because of prejudices toward Roma people . So I can say that i have never heard about anyone married Roma and vice versa in my hole life as I remember.

Mixing in the Roma ethnic group has occured slowly in my opinion,in 1000 years(32-40 generations)if only 3% of each generation intermarried, the math concludes that Roma have are roughly half European and half Indic. I observe the tendency for lighter skin in the Roma the farther West into Europe and America they go. The Roma of England have blond hair and blue eyes mostly.They also vaker the chib.There maybe a melting pot effect that is not occuring in the Balkans, but it is definitely happening in the US and Western Europe.Many of us American Roma don't know we are Roma until we are told when we are older by an Aunt,Uncle or Grandparent

I don't want to be misunderstood, like I'm having something against Roma people. Just opposite that.I know that the Roma people were the subject of constant oppression in history not only in Balkan states but in whole Europe. I also know that there are similiar Roma communities ,like those in Eastern Europe ,in Spain and France where i lived for a while. I also want to point out that there are similiar communities (mostly in Western Europe) who may not be of same Indian origins like Roma.

I agree, some travelling people have no Indic blood,but at the same time blond blue eye English Romany speak with words of Indic origin. But also their is dark skinned Roma, that don't speak any words of Indic Origin at all. I hope I am not coming off as hardheaded, It is a jigsaw puzzle with pieces missing.

[edit] =Cantona

Any one have a source for this?


bogdan 21:02, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Here is the reference for Pablo Picasso and Mother Teresa being Romani

http://www.geocities.com/~patrin/timeofthegypsies.htm

Here is another: http://www.webprincess.com/facab/apr98.htm

This one is just for Mother Teresa

http://www.stlouis.missouri.org/501c/gitana/page2D.html
http://www.imninalu.net/famousgypsies.htm

Robbyfoxxxx 23:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


There is also links suggesting Bill Clinton having Romany ancestry. I hope he may be added to the list too.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/755009/posts
http://members.tassie.net.au/~rteirney/Bill_Blyth.html
http://kstephens.topcities.com/gypsy.htm

[edit] Improvement Drive

Roma people has been nominated to be improved on the Improvement Drive. Support this article with your vote and help us improve it to featured status!--Fenice 10:30, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link to Johnny Frankham

http://www.travellersinleeds.co.uk/_travellers/boxing.html

[edit] Helen Mirren

http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Helen_Mirren

According to her biography "http://www.tiscali.co.uk/entertainment/film/biographies/helen_mirren_biog.html she has "perhaps a splash of Gypsy blood". I'm erasing her. She is not more Gypsy than I am.

[edit] August Krogh

http://www.bookrags.com/biography-august-krogh-wap/

[edit] John Bunyan

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/roma/gft/gft138.htm

[edit] Augustine Bearse

http://www.murrah.com/gen/bearse.htm

[edit] Slyvia Browne

http://thorntree.lonelyplanet.com/messagepost.cfm?postaction=reply&catid=40&threadid=13776&messid=82235&STARTPAGE=1&parentid=0&from=1

[edit] Michelle Branch

http://www.mtv.com/bands/b/branch_michelle/news_feature_100601/index.jhtml

[edit] Disputes

Who keeps taking out Yul Brynner and Ava Gardner?, both are documented as being of Roma Descent

--Please post this documentation.--Jbull 20:26, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the links.--Jbull 21:58, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Yul Brynner

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000989/bio

"He often claimed to be a half-Swiss, half-Japanese named Taidje Khan, born on the island of Sakhalin; in reality he was the son of Boris Bryner, a Swiss-Mongolian engineer and inventor, and Marousia Blagovidova, the daughter of a Russian doctor."--Jbull 21:58, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

You need to read the whole web page


http://www.geocities.com/~patrin/culture.htm

"Many well-known modern entertainers have claimed Romani ancestry, including the actor and Roma activist, Yul Brynner..." Does not state that Brynner was Roma.--Jbull 21:58, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Again you need to read the whole web page

http://www.curiousnotions.com/home/gazetteer/_rom.html

This redirects to a store. No info available.

http://www.tvacres.com/ethnic_thailander.htm

"Yul Brynner's ancestry was part Gypsy..."--Jbull 21:58, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

There is also many more references (Including books)on his Romany Ancestry.

Yul Brynner & Ava Gardner

http://www.radoc.net/RADOC-23-ADOPT.htm "Point out the contributions people of Romani descent have made to the world: Charlie Chaplin, Rita Hayworth, Michael Caine, Yul Brynner, Django Reinhardt, Carlos Montoya, Birelli Lagrene, Bob Hoskins, and according to some sources Picasso, Paul Bunyan, Mother Teresa and Ava Gardner, all qualify..." What sources?--Jbull 21:58, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean sources?That is a source. They seem pretty specific to me. Tou want people to carry a ID card that says I am Roma to prove it? Or do you want to track who knocked up who in someones family tree?

http://www.newhumanist.org.uk/volume119issue2_more.php?id=591_0_26_0_C "When the notable Roma academic, Professor Ian Hancock, wrote his most recent book, We are the Romani people he included at the end a list of politicians, film stars, artists and so on of Romany descent. (Charlie Chaplin, Yul Brynner and Ava Gardner I knew about, but Bill Clinton was a new one on me)."--Jbull 21:58, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Ava Gardner

http://www.time.com/time/archive/printout/0,23657,776360,00.html --This 1945 Time Magazine article is not available without a fee.--Jbull 21:58, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Freddy Prinze - Freddy Prinze Jr. his son

http://www.dzeno.cz/?c_id=6432 "What most readers comment on, however, is the surprising list of notable people of Roma descent: Yul Brynner, Charlie Chaplin, former US President Bill Clinton, Rita Hayworth, Bob Hoskins and Freddie Prinze."--Jbull 21:58, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

http://www.radoc.net:8088/RADOC-34-ROMANCE.htm "...(its main character, played by Freddy Prinze, claimed Romani descent himself)."--Jbull 21:58, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


http://www.ultimaterc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29504 "Freddy Prinze: "It was always weird growing up Hunga-Rican. My dad was Puerto Rican and my mom was a Hungarian gypsy. I once asked them how they met, my parents said they were on a bus and met each other trying to pick their pockets." (But here's the thing: Freddie Prinze's father was actually German, and his mother was Puerto Rican!)--Jbull

He never claimed to be full blooded Gypsy. He himself claimed to be of Roma descent

The source for most of these claims appears to be Professor Ian Hancock.
Unfortunately, his claims are contradicted by the facts. Ava Gardner was "Ava Lavinia Gardner was born in the small farming community of Brogden, Johnston County, North Carolina, the last of seven children of poor tobacco farmers; her mother was a Baptist of Scottish descent, while her father, Jonas Bailey Gardner, was an Irish American Catholic." As stated above, Freddie Prinze was German and Puerto Rican. Yul Brynner "was born Yul Borisovich Bryner (Russian: Юл Борисович Бриннер) in Vladivostok, Russia. His mother, Marousia Blagоvidova, was the daughter of a Russian doctor of Jewish heritage (who had converted to Christianity) and his father, Boris Bryner, was an engineer and inventor of Swiss and Mongolian ancestry. He was named Yul after his paternal grandfather, Jules Bryner."

You cant just erase people off the list.

You can if they are not Roma.--Jbull 21:58, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Bullcrap- You act as if the world is Black and White.They are mixed Roma You going to track down who knocked up who in peoples family tree? There are hundreds of references as to Yul Brynner I gave references to Ava Gardner, Freddy Prinze. Therefore they are of Roma descent Therefore I will keep putting these people on the list. There is evidence I provided but just because you don't accept it, it does'nt mean that you are the person who deems who is Gypsy, mixed or not

You Going to do this forever you twit? JBull Robbyfoxxxx

Mother Teresa is of Roma decsent or allegedly. Freddy Prinze by his own affirmations is Roma Ava Gardner Roma by her own affirmations These people should be added not erased

Please sign your posts with four tildes - ~~~~ so we know who you are. We cannot keep people on this list without evidence. A geocities site that doesn't document its claims is not evidence. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

There is much evidence on this page. Not "no evidence" Robbyfoxxxx 23:37, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Where is the evidence for Mother Teresa? Also, please be aware of our Three revert policy. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I dont know what is verifiable to everybody. If you are of Roma descent you dont get a Id card like Native Americans and you dont get documented as "this or that".I think also it is difficult to find a published source as to to who made whoopy with somebodys grandparent. So I think that when someone says they are of Roma descent , Why not believe them? In the very least, I think that the disputed people should be organized as "Allegedly of Roma descent" Robbyfoxxxx 00:08, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mother Teresa

Here is the reference for Pablo Picasso and Mother Teresa being Romani

http://www.geocities.com/~patrin/timeofthegypsies.htm

Here is another: http://www.webprincess.com/facab/apr98.htm

This one is just for Mother Teresa

http://www.stlouis.missouri.org/501c/gitana/page2D.html
http://www.imninalu.net/famousgypsies.htm

Robbyfoxxxx 23:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

But none of those sources say where they get their information from. I can create a website and create a "List of people who were born purple" and make it sound reasonable, but unless I included documented proof, then it isn't a reliable source. Is there a newspaper article or a biography which makes this claim? User:Zoe|(talk) 00:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I dont know...I am of Roma descent and I cannot document that I am. And where I get my information from is my family.Should I have an outside source to verify that I am of Romani Decsent?

If there were an article about you, and that assertion was made, yes. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

That is a lie and you know it. Documented proof...Let me tell you something, There aint no way one of my relatives is going to "document" they are Gypsy. Robbyfoxxxx 00:46, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, what did I say that was a lie? And once again, in the normal course of the day, you don't need to document you exist. However, if an article were written about you (or about me, for that matter), there would have to be more than just a flat assertion that you or I exist. Existence isn't notable either, but that's for another discussion. Proof of all assertions needs to be made for the assertion to continue in an article. As I said on your Talk page, please read WP:V. And please don't take this as an attack on your or your ethnicity, or on the Roma people -- it's purely about verification of articles. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:46, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The lie is that I would need outside verification to prove I am of Roma Ancestry if an article was written about me. I am confused as to how to get outside verification. There is no documents etc., just what the family members says. I dont even say I am of Roma Ancestry to people,I am in the Midwest-USA and people never even heard of Gypsies(Roma), So my childrens children ...Will probably never know that they are of Roma Ancestry unless they are told they are. There is no documents. Robbyfoxxxx 22:16, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

It's not a lie. See WP:V. If you make a claim in a Wikipedia article, you have to be prepared to back it up. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:29, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

There are millions of Roma on the earth, it is not far fetched that many people have Roma ancestry...six degrees of seperation? Look, matters of this nature cannot be backed up. There is no verifiable solid,concrete,paper that says a person is Gypsy.You can go on and on about if the source was reliable or verifiable...Hancock, Ian;We are the Romani People;University of Hertfordshire Press;2003. Here ya go, a published book by a university that states that Mother Teresa, Freddy Prinze, etc. are of Roma ancestry... This is the reliable source you wanted :) I cant help anymore, I dont know his sources, there in the book, I cannot verify whose grandpa made whoopi with whom 100 years ago, I was not there and cant verify it happened because I had no pencil and paper to actually record grandpa making whoopi with whom,and no photo for verification. I know things need to be verified in certain things like science,law,logic,etc...but there is very little verifiable evidence in regards to Roma Ancestry, along with other ethnic groups for that matter. Robbyfoxxxx 11:15, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This list is very dubious

I find it hard to believe that many of the people on this article are Roma... Someone claiming that their great grandfather was a gypsy (or cherokee for that matter) does not qualify them as belonging to the Roma ethnic group. I think this list should be cut down considerably... There should also be some sources which prove this is true.

There is sources I have put them up,Just because someone has a Roma Ancestor DOES qualify them for this list,It does'nt matter if they are part of the culture or not.They still have Roma Blood, so stop erasing people, I've noticed you trolling on this and the Roma People link.I gonna have you banned if you continue to deface this list Robbyfoxxxx 20:27, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I have cut down the list although I think it should be cut down quite a bit more. I dont agree with the statement that most Europeans have at least one Romani ancestor, Roma have only been in Europe for around 500 years. Although this statement could be true for parts of Eastern and South East Europe aswell as the Iberian peninsula. In any case, Roma ethnicity is not defined by having a Gypsy ancestor but by being ethnic Roma: having recieved Roma culture and having at least one Roma parent.I guess it is similar to the definition of being jewish. I also think many artists claim Roma ancestry to make themselves more interesting.


As for the "Gypsy and Road Travellers Federation" I do not know this organization and I am sure that 95% of Roma in Europe have never heard of it. Can you give us their website? --Burgas00 11:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the bbc would have mentioned Picasso being a Roma on this article on "Picasso and the Gypsies": http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ww2/A6864285 The title says Roma, Sinti and MIXED people. Having Roma Ancestry merely means that,why complicate it by stating at least one Romaparent and grown up in the culture.There are many Roma people outside the culture who do not follow the old ways, Dont try to classify and put people in your little box.People are born what they are, if they are 1/2 1/4 1/8 1/100 Gypsy, so be it. Template:Robbyfoxxxx

Robyfoxxx I have the impression you are one of these 16 year-old new-age type girls and that someone in your family told that your great great grandmother was a Gypsy. You were probably naive enough to believe it and consider yourself Gypsy or something and have developed an interest in this group... That is why you are including your American Pop-idols in the list of ethnic Roma. Roma are an ethnicity, a culture and a race of people who have existed in Europe and the Middle East for hundreds of years. They are not a fashion that you westerners can appropriate by wearing hippy clothes and bracelets. I may be 1/100th Chinese but that does not make me Chinese. --Burgas00 20:59, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

hehehe... Yes these imagined identities are quite common among white americans. They feel the need to belong to something. I personally wouldnt have chosen to be a "gypsy". Being American-Indian is way cooler!!! ;-)

If you are 1/100th Chinese, no you are not Chinese-you are part ChineseBy the way, Im not white-you fool. You seem to know everything, tell me more about me, Im sure you know more than me :) Robbyfoxxxx 20:26, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Well this guy has a point. The chances are that a young girl from midwest America who thinks she is a Gypsy and thinks that a long list of people (Bill Clinton, Britney Spears, Elvis Presley...) are also Gypsies, can only be white 8-), and I would add blonde!!!! Expressions used such as "Bullcrap" are also dead giveaways. Ok Im going to stop this, it is sounding too much like a personal attack.

I want to make a serious point now:

We owe the Roma people some respect: Imagine this page was called "list of jewish people". Imagine someone started adding random people into the article because "his great grandfather was supposedly half jewish". It is claimed in many sources that Hitler had jewish origins. Do you imagine Hitler on the list of famous Jewish people? Or how about Madonna? Well she follows the Kabballa and has changed her name to Esther!! Or how about those wierd protestant sects you have in the US: The Messianic Christians?? Should they be considered Jews because they follow Jewish rituals? Jews visiting this site would be flipping out! Accusing everyone of disrespect, racism etc... It would not be tenable. Well the same thing is going on right now, only there are no Roma to defend their own community on wikipedia (apart from gypsy-princess Robbyfox). I find this disrespectful and offensive. Famous Roma must be REAL Roma not people who claim (or of whom it is claimed) they have Gypsy ancestry. They must be taken seriously as an ethnic group, and not be victimized by western ignorance and romanticism.

I think this whole page should be blanked out and redone from scratch... --Burgas00 21:16, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey, just because I sleep with White girls does'nt make me white. Elvis Presley, Britney Spears, Ha, Ha,Ha, You make no sense. Being Gypsy and having Gypsy blood are two different things, this list is of people with Gypsy blood.You know more about my family than myself,also you would'nt talk like this to my face, so why hurl insults to people you dont know? I'll show your Momma...Gypsy princess :) Stop reducing the site to insults. And get one thing clear, there are people of mixed ancestry,is that so hard to believe? there are blond blue eyed white people with black ancestry here in America, You fools,You think you can put people into your little file. Even Gypsies themselves dont know what to do with mixed breeds.Robbyfoxxxx 23:16, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

"Mixed Breeds"??? We are talking about people here, not dogs!--Guzman ramirez 21:50, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

You get the idea-mixed ethnicity, That is the only thing you have to criticize? Please, give me a break. Robbyfoxxxx 21:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Burgas00, I think you are 100% right on this. It is also a symptom of the race-obsession there is in the united states, where the one-drop theory on race still exists. If you have one drop of "non-white" blood you are considered (by some) as not "white". User "Robifoxxx"'s classification of who is Roma is eerily close to what it was in Nazi Germany (except in Nazi Germany probably provided proper resaerch and sources!!!!)--Guzman ramirez 21:50, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

For Guzma Ramiaraz: "It is a symptom of the-Race Obsession there is in the United States" End Quote- Leave your European opinions about America out. "Robifoxxx's classification is eerily close to what it was in Nazi Germany (except in Nazi Germany probably provided proper research and sources!!!!)"end quote.- Funny you bought up... NAZI'S!!, the older people in my family told me how they were herded into trains, no room to sit, and standing in piss and shit, people dying in the rail cars.Were did they come? AMERICA!!!!!,So don't act as if Europe's shit don't stink. Your preaching to the choir and you need to stop this,It is getting rather stupid fighting about this shit to complete strangers. Robbyfoxxxx 23:11, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Robbyfoxxx: Don'use the "Im Gypsy" argument of authority, when you have no other. Especially when nobody quite believes you anyways. There are no Gypsies in Oklahoma... You sleep with white girls? You sure you don't "make whoopi" with them? In any case you are clearly against the absolute majority in this discussion, so your edits to the article are considered vandalism from now on.--Burgas00 08:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


"There are no Gypsies in Oklahoma" Have you been to Oklahoma before? There are people from everywhere, even from Bulgaria in Oklahoma. Do I care if anyone believes me? No. What is believed is not always the truth. I do both make whoopi and sleep with your white women-YES I DO,They love it;). I said Im Gypsy? No I did'nt. I said my Grandpa was Gypsy, I have Gypsy Ancestry. So once again you know me more than myself. This list is for Roma, Sinti, and people of mixed ancestry, so Charlie Chaplin, Rita Hayworth, Ava Gardner Yul Brynner,David Blaine and others belong on this list, because they are of mixed ancestry.You Bulgarian,tell your white Momma I said Hello!!!Maybe she likes coffee with her cream, you know-whoopi:)Robbyfoxxxx 15:42, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

By the way, Robbyfoxxx, I am not Bulgarian, I am Armenian.--Burgas00 15:38, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic Roma or famous people with alleged Roma ancestry?

This seems to be the main point of contention in this article. I agree basically with the statement made by Burgas00 above, which I reproduce below:

We owe the Roma people some respect: Imagine this page was called "list of jewish people". Imagine someone started adding random people into the article because "his great grandfather was supposedly half jewish". It is claimed in many sources that Hitler had jewish origins. Do you imagine Hitler on the list of famous Jewish people? Or how about Madonna? Well she follows the Kabballa and has changed her name to Esther!! Or how about those wierd protestant sects you have in the US: The Messianic Christians?? Should they be considered Jews because they follow Jewish rituals? Jews visiting this site would be flipping out! Accusing everyone of disrespect, racism etc... It would not be tenable. Well the same thing is going on right now, only there are no Roma to defend their own community on wikipedia. I find this disrespectful and offensive. Famous Roma must be REAL Roma not people who claim (or of whom it is claimed) they have Gypsy ancestry. They must be taken seriously as an ethnic group, and not be victimized by western ignorance and romanticism.

Please Discuss.

--Cassius80 00:55, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you people hate seeing so many People with Gypsy ancestry as successful. You would rather wish to see Gypsies as a bad examples.

Besides this discussion, IP user: 199.245.163.1 User: Robbyfoxxx is repeatedly vandalising the discussion page. Either he/she should stop or should be banned. --Guzman ramirez 21:04, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Your a baby Guzman,

I have a great Idea, try to add people to the list, I have not seen Burgas00 or Guzman add a person yet. Be constructive not destructive. You are trying to exclude people for not being 100% Gypsy. This list is for people of Roma, Sinti and MIXED ANCESTRY. I am sorry that you can't except that many people don't fall into the Black & White, Light & Dark, This or That, fallacy. As for the heading that was changed so many times "This list does not include people who are of Gypsy Ancestry" I think you are trying to say that you hate seeing Gypsies mix with other races. Well it is to late for that, and all Famous People of Roma and Sinti ancestry will be put back on the list even after it has been vandalized many times. Famous People who have voiced their Gypsy Ancestry done so to let people know they are of mixed ancestry and not 100% white or black and not 100% what they seem to be.

I know a girl whose American Dad is 1/4 Cherokee, her Mother is 1/2 White Australian 1/2 Indian from India. How will she be classified? She looks White but she went to PowWows, and She also would eat Curry with her Indian Grandma for India. She was in touch with her ancestry even if she wasnt 100% anything, yes. Are you going to try to tell her she is not Native American? or an Indian from India? or White? She is Native American, White, and Indian-all at the same time.

The Europeans are going to have to accept that this gray area no matter how much you hate Gypsies.Also, it is not hard to imagine millions of people with Gypsy ancestry or Black Ancestry ,Arab Ancestry,etc. The law of exponents?

And to quote Cassius80 "Famous Roma must be REAL Roma not people who claim (or of whom it is claimed) they have Gypsy ancestry." Endquote. Famous Roma must be REAL Roma? What is a REAL Roma? I know-a stereotypical Roma, SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN FILE EASILY. Not people who claimed they have Gypsy Ancestry? This list is for Roma, Sinti and MIXED PEOPLE- GO TO Roma People scroll down and it says ROMA, SINTI AND MIXED PEOPLE.......MIXED PEOPLE!!!!!!! So stop erasing people of Mixed Ancestry because you can't stand having people organized into one file....sounds a little like Nazi classifications, doesnt it GUZMAN?Robbyfoxxxx 22:12, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Robbyfoxxxx,please stop being so emotional. I have not expressed my point of view on this issue yet, and you are already attacking me. All I have asked you is not to vandalise the talk page. Btw I think the rule is "assume good faith". --Guzman ramirez 22:02, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Dont be so emotional? You tell me my opinions are similar to the NAZI'S? You are right Guzman, I need to calm down. I am sorry.

Burgas00- Why erase? you havent made ONE Addition to this list.I think that shows your motives.

I apologize. It is clear that none of us harbour racist intentions. However the simile stands. We cannot define ethnicity on the grounds of someone having an ancestor who belonged to a certain group.--Guzman ramirez 22:21, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

You aren't defining someone by an ancestor, you are acknowledging that their mixed ancestry exists,which is why these people have said they have Gypsy Ancestry.

I am going to make a new section for people with mixed ancestry,


Yes this article should be divided in two. One section on famous ethnic Roma and another section on famous people with possible roma ancestry, since some people seem to be interested in the latter.--Guzman ramirez 16:04, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Im changing the title to "People with Acknowledged Roma Heritage" since many of the are known to have Gypsy Ancestry like Charlie Chaplin.

Also Nikita Denise is Roma she grew up in Slovakia and is fully Roma

Burgas00 what are you doing? If someone has only one Roma father or mother they are not fully Roma. Besides Django Reinhardt is not Roma he is Sinti.

Well Sintis are Roma right? The section is not for people who are not pure-blooded Roma (I dont think such thing exists), it is for people who are simply NOT Roma at all- Like George Soros, or Ava Gardner, but have or may have Roma ancestors... --Burgas00 23:41, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The Roma are one tribe the Sinti are also a tribe, Sinti are not Roma. I heard people say that the term "Romany" is used to name both tribes but "Romany" also is the name of the language.If I am wrong correct me. Do I think Charlie Chaplin is a Gypsy? No, but I think that acknowledgement is positive when people have mixed ancestry. Is Pushkin black? No, but his is 1/8 black, and proud of his ancestry. I hope come to an agreement on the list.I also would like to apologize for all misunderstandings. I know it is very easy to say such harsh things on the computer.

Don't worry about it, its all good fun. As for the tribes, I think the main tribes are the Kalderash in the Balkans, the Sinti in Northern Europe, Italy and France, and the Gitanos in Spain, Portugal, Southern France and North Africa. There are also the Romnichal in Great Britain, but I am still not sure if these are real ethnic Roma... Anyways Roma is the official policitally correct term for all these groups originating in North West India.--Burgas00 10:38, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roma people or Roma and Sinti People

The term "Roma and Sinti" is used to describe both groups. If one is a Sinti as Django Reinhardt, that wold make him not Roma, but Sinti


Sintis are considered one of the Roma subgroups. Roma encompass the Gitanos, Sintis and Kalderash.

Then why the term Roma AND Sinti, as if they are two different groups?

[edit] Unsourced section

The "People with Roma heritage" section, aside admittedly being completely unsourced, is also completely irrelevant. Some of the people listed, like Bob Hoskins, are actually Roma, some just have distant ancestry (and some are not at all Roma), and we don't have lists by distant ancestry, as per Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Therefore, I am moving the list of "distant" ancestry here (as anyone is allowed to remove any content from Wikipedia that is unsourced). Some of these names should definitely be restored to the main list, but only with sources that actually say the people involved are "Roma" or "Gypsy", not "I think my great-great, etc. was a Gypsy". Mad Jack 22:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Completely unsourced? Who told you that? Do you have a source for that statement? Bob Hoskins? Gypsy? He looks like a white person, He CANNOT be Roma. (Sarcasm)

Roma are dispersed all over the world there is mixing between different cultures. In the 1000 years the Roma have been in Europe, even a slow intermarriage rate at 3% would make most Roma 1/2 of Indic Origin and 1/2 European origin. This discussion was already talked about and it was agreed that the list stays.

You may not "agree" for a list to stay if there are no sources. Unsourced information may and can immediately be removed from any article by any editor. If you want to restore some of the names, you must have a source that actually says that they "are/were Roma". Mad Jack 08:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and sources like [1], which just say "of Roma descent", are not acceptable because it just says "had X ancestry". I don't know if that source is correct or not (though people like Prinze, Jr., etc. if they have Roma ancestry it is very distant), but the sources you use must actually say "Person X IS Roma", not "had a Roma great-grandmother", "had Roma ancestry", etc. Also be aware, sometimes when a person uses the word "Gypsy" they are referring to particular lifestyle, not the Roma ethnicity/culture. Mad Jack 08:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
And to Burgas00. If your concern is that people will start adding Presley, etc. don't worry. I will remove them, as I have been removing equally dubious entries from the majority of X-American lists (we don't run Wikipedia on what may happen if people do this or that, nor should the articles cater to the lowest common denominator :) ) And someone mentioned Bob Hoskins above - he should definitely be on the main list. I'm sure there's a source out there that calls him a Roma or he calls himself one, etc. Mad Jack 08:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Stop deleting the list.

One thing every Wikipedia editor must understand is a ground rule regarding Wikipedia content. As follows = "Source = In", "no source = out" Mad Jack 04:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Look at the earlier citings on this discussion page, Come on now, Im not going to repeat every citing to every single person who asks for it.

Oh, and sources that state a person is of Roma descent does constitute being on the list of "People with Roma Heritage."

No, a "List of X" must have a sources that say the "Person IS X", not that they have some X ancestry, X great-grandmother, etc. This is the way every X-American, etc. list on Wikipedia is done, and it's the only way to comply with WP:NOR and WP:V. Out of the list, you should be able to find a source that says, say, Bob Hoskins is Roma, because he certainly is. Not so much Freddie Prinze, Bill Clinton, Michelle Branch, etc. Just find the sources. Mad Jack 15:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've restored four for whom I found a source that looks reliable that said they are/were Roma, not just had some Roma ancestry. If you wish to restore the rest, please find a similar source that says that the name you are restoring is/was Roma. Mad Jack 16:02, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Having Roma Heritage does constitute being on the list of "People with Roma Heritage", that is why the list is exists, to differentiate between the two. So leave it alone, or I will be forced to notify the administrators.

You may not make lists of people on Wikipedia because of the ethnicity of a person's great-great-grandfather, etc. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. This is a list of Roma people, which seems encyclopedic enough. If you want to include a person on this list, find a source that explicitly says they are/were Roma, not their great-great-etc. and not that they had Roma ancestry. is or are Roma. Mad Jack 02:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The list states "People with Roma Heritage" you dont know to what degree they are Roma, so your broad brushstrokes. Besides Nikita Denise is Roma, She grew up in a Roma community. (*$)#@ Gadjo, always fixing @*&* that aint broken!!!!

I will repeat. This is a "List of Roma people". Wikipedia does not make lists of people based on the ethnicity of their distant ancestors, so forget the whole "List of people of X descent". If you want to list a person on a List of Roma, find a source that says they are Roma. Let's start with Fairuza Balk, David Blaine and Gogol Bordello. Do you have a source that says they are Roma? Mad Jack 21:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, nix Gogol Bordello. They're a band, not a person. You could list separate band members if you had sources they are Roma. So let's move on, asides from Balk and Blaine, do you have a source that Michelle Branch is Roma? You showed me one source where she said that her great-grandmother was a Gypsy, but that's not sufficient because A. It only said her great-etc. was Gypsy, not Michelle herself and B. "Gypsy" is sometimes used to refer to people living a certain lifestyle, not necessarily Romas. Mad Jack 21:09, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The list is for "People of Roma heritage".The list above it is "List of Roma People", there is a difference.Stop erasing the list.

David Blaine http://www.hollywood.com/celebs/fulldetail/id/1118607

Fairuza Balk http://www.wirehouse.com/bio.asp?t=a&SiteID=FairuzaBalk

(Eugene Hutz) Gogol Bordello http://xpress.sfsu.edu/archives/arts/004703.html

Michelle Branch http://www.mtv.com/bands/b/branch_michelle/news_feature_100601/index.jhtml

Sylvia Browne (I met her and she IS Roma) http://thorntree.lonelyplanet.com/messagepost.cfm?postaction=reply&catid=40&threadid=13776&messid=82235&STARTPAGE=1&parentid=0&from=1

Raymond Buckland http://www.raybuckland.com/

John Bunyan http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/roma/gft/gft138.htm

Yul Brynner http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9017835?tocId=9017835

Eric Cantona- I dont know, I did'nt add him http://www.imninalu.net/famousGypsies.htm

Michael Caine http://www.pirkadat.org/gypsy_spirit2004

Charlie Chaplin http://www.pirkadat.org/gypsy_spirit2004

Nikita Denise http://www.nikita-denise.org/

George Bramwell Evens http://www.kimia-sains.com/articles/Romany

Eva and Zsa Zsa Gabor- They where on the list before I came began coming here.(Gabor is a well known Gypsy surname.)

Ava Gardner I dont know she was on the list from before I began coming here

Tony Gatlif http://www.talkingpix.co.uk/ReviewsSwing.html

Edyta Gorniak http://www.imninalu.net/famousGypsies.htm

Cary Grant-Someone else added him

Rita Hayworth http://www.kipaddotta.com/rita-hayworth.html

Bob Hoskins http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Hoskins

August Krogh http://www.bookrags.com/biography-august-krogh-wap/

Juscelino Kubitschek de Oliveira http://www.imninalu.net/famousGypsies.htm

Albert Lee http://www.fmsound.net/NewReleases/Articles/Albert%20Lee/Albert%20Lee.html

Rose Mcdowall- I did'nt add her

Andy McCoy http://entertainment.msn.com/movies/movie.aspx?m=181345

Victor Mature- I did'nt add him

Helen Mirren http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Helen_Mirren

Denny Laine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denny_Laine http://www.answers.com/topic/denny-laine

Ibolya Oláh-Did'nt add

Freddy Prinze http://www.ultimaterc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29504 http://www.everyculture.com/multi/Du-Ha/Gypsy-Americans.html http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/1902806190

Sandro http://www.imninalu.net/famousGypsies.htm

George Soros-Did'nt add, Hungarian, gives to Gypsy charities, will look further

Mother Teresa http://www.geocities.com/~patrin/timeofthegypsies.htm http://www.webprincess.com/facab/apr98.htm

Rodrigo de Triana http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Europe/Spain/Andalucia/Sevilla-253763/Things_To_Do-Sevilla-Triana_District-R-1.html-

Joe Zawinul-Did'nt add

Dejan Savićević-Did'nt add

Aljoša Asanović-Did'nt add


The people on it are not randomly picked, @#%# Gadjos, you want everybody to do everything for you.Here's an idea, next time, find them yourself. As you see most people belong on this list, so leave it alone, this section is for "People with Roma Heritage", to differentiate from "Roma People"

You simply will not be putting people on this list that are "of Roma descent". Roma. period. This is an encyclopedia we're editing here, not a free for all. I will review your sources and add the people noted as "Roma". Mad Jack 03:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Now, the blow by blow. David Blaine - source is not reliable - Hollywood.com is a second-hand trivia sites that copies other sources. That's one. Two - it only says his mother is "Gypsy", which is not good for us because A. it does not specify "Roma" and B. it doesn't say Blaine himself is Gypsy (Roma). I would guess that the source is referring to the Gypsy "lifestyle" here, because every single reputable source on Blaine's ancestry says his mother is Jewish. Fairuza Balk - this [2] is ridiculous - it's a mirror version of our very own Wikipedia article! in its old form. I already told you about Branch [3] - it doesn't say Michelle herself is Roma, it says her great-grand was "Gypsy" and doesn't even specify if she was Roma. Sylvia Browne - "I met her" is original research. Your source is a message board. Raymond Buckland - fine, for now. Bunyan - [4] "may have sprung from the Gipsy tribe" does not say he is Gypsy. Yul Brynner was already in, but you keep unsourcing him when you revert. The source for Caine just says "Gypsy blood"[5] and doesn't look all that reliable. Chaplin is already in the list. Nikki Denise - I found a source and restored. This is a mirror of Wikipedia![6] "Gabor is a well known Gypsy surname" - giggle. Find me a source that the Gabor sisters are Gypsies. Hayworth and Hoskins are already in. Gatliff -I found a source and added him. Edyta Górniak - fine, she is in. Albert Lee - good source, I added him. Andy McCoy - can't find any reputable sources. Helen Mirren - link doesn't work. Denny Laine - your first source is our very own Wikipedia article. Your second one is a mirror of that same article! Prinze - he wasn't even Hungarian, much less a Hungarian Gypsy (he alternative claimed to be a Hungarian Jew). His father was German (see Freddie Prinze on Wikipedia for a source). Sandro - which Sandro? There are a few listed on Wikipedia. Mother Teresa - dubious source, but OK, will include. Rodrigo de Triana - source doesn't work. Anyway, as I said, I restored the names above that are sourced to a source that says they were "Gypsy". If you want the rest included, you need to find a source that explicitly says the person is/was a Gypsy/Roma. Mad Jack 04:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Bullcrap, this list is for people of Roma heritage, The list of Roma people is different. You paint such broad brushstrokes, Gypsy is different than Roma? For one thing Django Reinhardt was not Roma, he was Sinti Manouche. Not all Gypsies are Roma.

Enough already. You simply can not include everyone who may have or even did have a Roma ancestor 200 years ago. If you have a source that is reputable and explicitly says the person is/was Roma, they should be on the list. Nothing that in your opinion makes that person Roma. As I said, I've restored the names that you found proper sources for to the main list, were they belong. The rest should not be restored without a reliable source that says they are Roma. Mad Jack 23:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The list stays, Roma heritage is different than being Roma,

As I said, Wikipedia does not make one drop rule lists. Enough already. Mad Jack 23:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Yea enough already, go leave, The list stays.

I will remove it as soon as 3rr expires. That's a promise. You need proper sources and Wikipedia is not your personal playground to put in anything you want. Mad Jack 23:26, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't give me that one drop bullcrap, These people specifically stated they have Roma Heritage. Even 1/4 blood Gypsies I know have Gypsy names and are in contact with their family and culture. So don't act like you can generalize this subject at all.

And I will revert it back, because unlike you, who will move on to another subject when you are fancy, I will still be here on List of Roma People, and if you go to Roma People and scroll down, to the "See Also", you will see that the list includes Mixed People.

As I said, enough already. Your opinion on who is or is not Roma is irrelevant. Only the opinion of reputable sources specifically on the people under discussion. I am not moving on anywhere. All of Wikipedia's "X lists" must fit under our policies. I have had enough of these attempts at ethnic pride where people add everyone with a drop of whatever X blood. I'm glad I'm here to nullify all that. If you have a source that is reliable and explicitly describes a person as a Roma, they should be on the list. If not, not. It doesn't get much simpler. Because I did not seem to warn you about WP:3RR before, I did not (and I guess could not) report you for it, even though you have violated it and technically should have been blocked. So, consider this a proper warning for next time, that you should not break 3RR. And to get specific, my 3RR term expires in a little over 20 minutes, at which point I will again use my right to remove unsourced names and restore the sources that you for some reason have deleted. If you revert me, then you would have broken the 3RR which I have now warned you about and will almost certainly be blocked by an administrator. Therefore, you should not. Instead, if you want so much to include these people and you are so certain that they are Roma, (some of which you have said yourself that you don't have sources at all for) you need to get out there and find a reputable source that describes each of them as Roma, and add that source and make this page a reputable list of Roma people, not a junkyard. Mad Jack 23:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Whatever, As I said before, you (!@# GAdjo, you find some sources I spent 2 hours finding them last night,

The source say they have Roma Heritage, therefore they belong in the Roma heritage side, do you understand? It's simple

As for people adding whatever blood they want to in their ethnic background, you are simplifying a complex issue, you think a 1/2 black and 1/2 white child has to be one or another, what about 1/4 black and 3/4 white, they are still a quarter black! and even being 1/4 black, alot of times they are still identified as "Black" by others so your one drop rule, only counts when they look white, its bullcrap.

Don't care about "whatever blood". You got a good source that says "Person X is Roma", they're in. You don't, they're not. It's the same with any thing in Wikipedia. Mad Jack 02:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You dont care? Why do I care if you dont care, I have good sources that say "Person X is of Roma Heritage" I have, Their in, Yes, its the same with anything on Wikipedia, people of Roma heritage go on the list.

No, you need a source that say "Person X is Roma". You gave me a couple of sources like that, and I therefore restored the names. As for the other names, they were either 1. admitted by you to having no source 2. non-reliable sources or 3. didn't actually say the person themselves was Roma Mad Jack 02:50, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The sources state Roma Ancestry.

Again, no one drop rule. Having an X ancestor does not make a person, their kids, their grandkids and all ancestors from that point X themselves. That's original research. You need a soure that says "this person is X". That's in reference to the reliable sources you presented that do mention Roma ancestry. The other ones are either not reliable, just say "Gypsy", which is ambigious (i.e. Michelle Branch), or, as you admitted, have no source (Gabors). Mad Jack 15:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The sources state Roma ancestry

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