Talk:List of Presidents of Venezuela
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[edit] Standardized naming convention
The abreviation template at the bottom is wrong when in selecting some of the names -for the purposes of using only one name. For example Marcos Perez Jimenez should appear as Perez or as Perez Jimenez, but not as Jimenez. --Anagnorisis 09:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
- Copying my comment from the template talk page: Can anyone explain to me why some of the Presidential names listed on the template include doble apellido (both last names -- mother's and father's - per Venezuelan custom - e.g.; Perez Jimenez), while others do not (e.g.; Chavez Frias)? Shouldn't one standardized naming convention be used ? Are naming conventions in Venezuela explained anywhere? Sandy 11:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
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- Sandy, your previous example is wrong. Both presidents are mentioned with both their last names. This cultural difference often causes funny mistakes and no small deal of mischief. In all of Latin America (not just in Venezuela), you formally use both your surnames: the main one is your father's, the second one is your mother's. For abbreviation, however, or when referring informally to someone, you mention just the main surname. To complicate things further, some people insist in using additional first names. When travelling north, one usually gets his surname lost, as everyone assumes the main surname is the last one, which it is not. Occasionally someone preventively writes his/her two surnames together, tied by a hyphen. Thus, just a few examples: Marcos (one first name) Pérez Jiménez (two surnames); Carlos Andrés (two first names) Pérez (one surname, no one remembers his second surname); Hugo Rafael (two first names) Chávez Frías (two surnames); Arturo (one first name) Uslar-Pietri (two surnames tied so there's no confusion). But that's easy. It used to be a lot more complicated in the past: Simón Bolívar had an extraordinarily complex name, a common custom at his time: Simón José Antonio de la Santísima Trinidad (four names, the last one referring to the Holy Trinity) Bolívar Palacios y Blanco (two surnames, the second one a compound family name). Regards, AVM 21:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
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- AVM, thanks so much for the long explanation of surnames in Latin America. The explanation will be helpful to others who may not understand Hispanic surnames or the question, which I apparently didn't spell out clearly enough (I already understand my surnames :-) There are multiple lists and templates of Venezuelan presidents on Wiki. If you look at the template shown at the bottom of the List of Presidents of Venezuela, you'll see that Chávez Frías is listed only as Chávez, while Pérez Jiménez is listed with both surnames. Mixing styles in one template. If you look at the actual list on the main page here, you'll find Hugo Chávez Frías (both surnames) and Rafael Caldera (one surname), rather than Rafael Caldera Rodríguez (both surnames). This is not explained anywhere on the page to the reader unfamiliar with Hispanic surnames. So, again, my question is should we not use a standardized naming convention? That is, either use both surnames, or use only one surname, rather than a mix of style throughout the Presidential articles in Wiki (or at least within the same page or template? You and I understand Hispanic surnames, but others may be confused. My recommendation is that we use both surnames in the main article, List of Presidents of Venezuela, and only one surname in the template, for brevity. This may help the unitiated understand the difference. Thanks for helping out ! I also put out a request for help on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Venezuela. Sandy 14:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Wikiproject Venezuela
I'm looking forward to found the Wikipedia:WikiProject Venezuela. I had the idea of creating it when I first made the portal. The project will have the main objective of centrating efforts into a more complete information and a higher quality of the articles in Wikipedia, other media in the sister projects, and the portal itself.
However, the rules say that I should have at least five to ten members willing to integrate and contribute to the wikiproject. So if some of you guys want to join in, then leave me a message, or in this page. I will be back in a few days to see how things are going on.
Go to Wikipedia:Wikiproject/List_of_proposed_projects#Venezuela and list yourselves if you wanna join. --Alex Coiro 06:33, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Carmona as interim president
Multiple reliable sources (just a few included here) indicate that Pedro Carmona was interim President of Venezuela. Please refrain from deleting information referenced to reliable sources, and stop inserting original research.
[1] [2] [3] [4] Sandy 22:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
[5] Original research to claim that Carmona wasn't President. Lol, that is so funny but clearly not true, as my link shows. Given Sandy's intransigence I have had no choice but to tag this article with a NPOV tag. Labelling sources such as the Venezualan gob as original research implies that only North Americans or Brits like the BBC and not the Venezuelans themselves have a right to define who is their President which is an extreme POV, SqueakBox 19:11, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- A virtual libray is not a reliable source, and even if it were, it gives undue weight to a minority view. Sandy 19:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- And the source can't count. Iolakana|T 19:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
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- “En Venezuela no hay ningún presidente transitorio interino (sic), el ciudadano Pedro Carmona Estanga cometió un delito de usurpación de funciones presidenciales y tiene que ser procesado judicialmente por este delito como cualquier ciudadano que incurre en un delito en el marco del estado de derecho que impera en Venezuela” William Lara, president of the National Assembly of Venezuela (2002)
Perhaps the opinion of the legislative power counts. JRSP 19:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I doubt it, this seems to be about more than who was President of Venezuela and any source will be ignored by Carmona's supporters, as per the current evidence, SqueakBox 19:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- Can we please keep the discussion where it started, on Talk:Pedro Carmona, so we don't have to say the same thing in 3 places? Thanks, Sandy 20:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Octavio Lepage
Octavio Lepage was interim president between Carlos Andrés Perez(2nd term) and Ramon J Velázquez JRSP 23:56, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- I wasn't in Venezuela then, or aware. Do you have several high-quality reliable sources labeling him as such? Changing this information affects dozens (if not more) of different articles and templates throughout Wiki, so it is not something that should be done rashly as SqueakBox did with Carmona. We need to have sources, broad consensus, and probably a list of all the places that would need to be updated, since it will put the numbers out of whack. Sandy 00:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
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- I was just looking over all of the material in the References, as well as the footnote in the Chavez article, saying he was the 53rd President. Straightening this out will be a real mess. A lot of it looks like complilations from various sources, with some original research thrown in as well. This is why I'd like for SqueakBox to work on a consensual basis, rather than charging forward with deletes without discussing them. This stuff works its way through all of the Venezuelan articles, including the claim that Chavez is #53 (which I never understood until I saw this chart, and I'm not that sure of it still); we should nail it down before we start operating on tables and templates.
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- I don't even understand the first two columns in this chart, different sources say different things, and how do we even define "President" in the older history of Venezuela? The sources also mention several books, that might be helpful? There is a long, long discussion of the issue of presidential succession in Venezuela on Saravask's original FAC for the Chavez article, but revisiting all of this is going to be a lot of work. What was the criteria used in making this table?
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- Anyway, footnote #2 gives no reliable source for Lepage (this is the problem with a lot of this older material, written by Saravask before referencing requirements in Wiki were tightened up), so we don't know on what basis he was excluded from the table. Can't someone get hold of some of these textbooks, or something from Venezuelan historians? We should ask for help on the WikiProject page. I'm going to see if I can dig up any reliable sources on Lepage; we can't be using unsourced Wiki footnotes as a source. Sandy 00:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
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- I'll look at that in a minute. I noticed the text at the top seems to indicate (??) that this list is supposed to include absolutely everyone: Many of the men listed below became President on a provisional basis as they waited for the arrival of the elected or regular president, such as commonly occurs in the aftermath of a civil war, rebellion, or coup d'état. As a consequence, other Venezuelan presidential rosters may not choose to include the 61 terms below, citing the extreme brevity of certain terms, unusual circumstances that may have surrounded a president's ascendancy into office, and other factors. That makes it sound like this includes even the briefest of "Presidents", so why did they leave out Lepage ? That seems to be addressed here: The most common listing criteria create a traditionally recognized list of 53 distinct presidential terms. So, some Venezuelan historians or texts use the list of 53 as the most common, which omits Lepage ???? Sandy 00:59, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
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- I can't get to the NYT article without paying. Instead of forking over the $5, I'll just go to the libary tomorrow and get a copy, unless someone else has it. Sandy 01:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
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- I left a question for Agnorisis, since he was involved in some of Saravask's work. Sandy 01:08, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
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- This one or two day presidents must have been common in the XIX century. If we check history books things can become very complicated. I think we should set a minimum. Many History books put Soublette right after Vargas, for instance. Let me see if I can get you something free for Octavio Lepage JRSP 01:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
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- I don't mind going to the library, but can't do it tonight. Do we understand the statement about the "most common listing" being the 53 ?? Sandy 01:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
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- ugh, too late at night for me to read pages of Spanish (I'm remembering now those events, though). The NY Times will give us the reliable source. We have to figure out why Lepage was left out. The more I study the chart, the more I like it. The number 53 seems appropriate, since it doesn't count the "interim" "caretakes" and other such things. But, they are shown, which serves to give a more complete picture of historical events. SqueakBox should be ressured that Carmona doesn't get "counted" in the official Presidential succession of 53 Presidents, but he's there to show that "something" happened in April 2002. On that basis, and considering there are several older "interim caretakers" that also aren't included in the 53 tally, it seems that Lepage should be there as well. But we need to see some of the original sources used in generating the chart, so that we're not engaging in original research. Sandy 01:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Diosdado Cabello
And yet, another question. Diosdado Cabello (also with no sources, as so many old Wiki articles) says, Cabello said that "I, Diosdado Cabello, am assuming the presidency until such time as the president of the republic, Hugo Chávez Frías, appears." So, was he actually sworn in, if so by whom, or did he auto-assume the Presidency? Sandy 01:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- Normal bussiness for the VP. Isaías Rodríguez, Adina Bastidas and JV Rangel assumed the presidency several times JRSP 01:18, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- He was sworn by W Lara, then president of the Assembly JRSP 01:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
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- So, why do we include Cabello in the chart, and not them, for example? Very confusing ... perhaps relating to what Agnorisis said on the Pedro Carmona talk page. The events of April 2002 have to be somehow explained and accounted for in the chart, since they weren't the "business of usual" of when a VP is temporarily sworn in during a presidential absence ? Sandy 01:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
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- Perhaps a footnote, like Lepage JRSP 01:27, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
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- But we need to be consistent: I wish I understood the older "interim" cases. We can't do one thing on the older cases, another on Carmona/Cabello, and another on LePage. I'm going to post a question to WikiProject Venezuela, to see if we can get broader input. Sandy 01:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
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- Copying my Talk:Pedro Carmona response here. Referencing requirements have gotten much tighter on Wiki, and the decisions taken there look rather informal, in retrospect (in other words, what we might call original research today, if the statements aren't referenced). The References at the bottom of List of Presidents of Venezuela include one source that shows 40 presidents, one that shows 45, and one that shows 53 (all different ways of counting them). It seems that Saravask's chart converted all of that information to 53 distinct presidential terms, vs. 40 or 45 distinct Presidents, and also showed the "interim" uncounted "caretaker" presidents, yet leaving out Lepage. More info is better than less IMO, but whatever we do, we need to make our sources more clear, via better inline citations. Sandy 02:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
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- Perhaps we should better look at 1836. It can be considered the 1st coup in Venezuelan history. As I said above, many lists put Soublette right after Vargas JRSP 14:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Re-visiting the entire Presidential list
JRSP, I have the NY Times Lepage article now, and several ideas of how we can address a lot of the issues with the Venezuelan Presidential info throughout Wiki. After all that Venezuelan-Israeli relations work, I'm a bit exhausted, but if we can get enough editors on board to develop some consensus that might hold across all of the Presidential articles, I can type up my ideas, which I think/hope would please SqueakBox. Sandy 22:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Why don't we try to simplify things by avoiding counting? I mean, lets discuss if X or Y was president or not, but lets not spend time trying to count to 53 or 54 or 67 or whatever. Making a list trying to label with numbers will be too complicated and this will lead to different sources. In Venezuela (as opposed to the USA) people do not tend to think of presidents as the number X president; the guy was president from such date to such other date -that is all; if someone wants to count and say he was number 45 or 47, people in Venezuela will say "so what?" or "who cares?" Thus, I suggest we make the list without the numbering. As to Lepage in 1993, I think he should be included. Here there is mention of him being caretaker president as replacement for Perez [9] Anagnorisis 09:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Here is another one [10] Anagnorisis 09:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
- That was going to be part of my proposal: it seems like Saravask tried to model this after the US Presidents list, which led to trouble. It is US-centric to look at it this way, since it's not the way Venezuelans look at it, and we probably can't find reliable sources that back up any of this counting. Look at the sources given in the article. One is a personal website, one is someone's opinion from UCAB, and one is a Venezuelan gov't site, which doesn't go as far back as the other sources do (and additionally reflects current government bias). Venezuela does not use presidential numbering and terms equivalent to the USA, so this "Featured List" is really bordering on original research, particularly with the "53rd President" issue. (I was curious to see how the US list counts Gerald Ford, as that would be similar to situation after CAP resigned: List of Presidents of the United States.)
- We need to address this List first, as well as the template, individual articles, the Presidential infobox, and the issue of Chavez being called "number 53" in his article. With all due respect to Saravask, who put enormous amounts of very nice work into all of this, it is somewhat strange to me to have US-centric lists generated by someone in India who has never been to Venezuela and doesn't speak Spanish <smile>. Before we begin this work, it would be good to have as many editors involved and working consensually as possible, so that we don't have more problems in the future. If a lot of editors are on board, I'm willing to type up lots of suggestions for how we can proceed.
- I found something in one of the personal websites which may be helpful, and before we undertake this work, I hope someone can get hold of some hard-print resources, so that we're not relying on personal websites to verify this list.
- Finalmente, las principales fuentes bibliográficas para esta parte fueron:
- Guillermo Morón, "Los Presidentes de Venezuela", Ed. Planeta, 3ra Edición, 1996.
- Manuel Tomás Lander, "Historia Amena de Venezuela", Ed. Histamena, 1991.
- Francisco Herrera Luque, "Los cuatro reyes de la baraja", Ed. Grijalbo, 1991.
- IMO, we should avoid using personal websites, as they are not reliable sources. We shouldn't use personal websites written by students at UCAB to write Venezuela's history on Wikipedia: we need to go to sources that meet the policy of WP:V. Sandy 15:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Sandy 14:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Go ahead! Do it Sandy. Regarding Saravask work, yes, I remember discussing this with him in the past, and yes, we can now say it was original work. He came with his own system for counting. At the time I didn't challenge him on the actual counting but on the inconsistency vis a vis the counting in the Spanish language wikipedia. Personally, I would list the information without trying to interpret with a number by counting -readers can reach their own conclussion. In Venezuela, contrary to the USA, there is no official count, so I think we can get rid of it. What would matter most is discussing and agreeing if Lepage should be in the list or not. Cheers. Anagnorisis 03:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
- Juan Crisóstomo Falcón is an interesting case: "he was briefly overthrown in 1865" JRSP 05:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
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- Andrés Navarte was also interim caretaker for 20 days in 1835 before Vargas and this is not in the list. He was also interim after Vargas, as the list says JRSP 20:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Liberal and conservative
Should be notice that the presidents are colored according to their parties, but only AD and COPEI, I think someone should also divide the XIX presidential list in Liberal and Conservative
(Maxmordon 18:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)).
