Talk:List of Muslim converts

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[edit] old discussion about delete

Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 2006-02-21. The result of the discussion was transfer to talk page.

This article has "Altough Islam does not Proselytism, it does encourage educating people about the faith." while Muslim converts#Conversion to Christianity has

Christianity and Islam are two religions that encourage preaching their faith in order to convert non-believers. In both cases, this missionary property has been used as a justification for religious wars (cf. Crusades, jihad) on other countries. This property encourages evangelists to convert people of other faiths, and history has shown that the motives were not always pure. Because of this, evangelism is sometimes viewed scornfully by modern society.

Unless consensus is reached, would it be better not to state whether or not Islam does Proselytism (especially as the current copy has bad grammar)? Andjam 08:38, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I suggest that the title of this page be changed to something like Names you recognize from the media of contemporary people who have become Muslims, or "Prominent Muslims", although the later would be defamatory since some of the listed acquired their fame by joining the criminal element in society. Frankly, I don't see the purpose of having the list except to help a researcher look for people to interview. I like to distance my thoughts from the movie Schindler's List but can't help it. The term convert in itself is unusual to muslim language and has no equivalent say in common Arabic for example. The list can not possibly be representative considering the 1400 years since Islam, and the millions of people in history that have become muslims. What is needed here is acuracy. Cheers 68.165.17.108 21:38, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that the introduction to this article is good. I don't think we should get into the debate over whether or not Islam prosellytizes on this page, but this should not be mentioned in the introduction. I wrote a new introduction but it was reverted. I am reverting back to my version, which is not perfect, but please discuss it. Academic Challenger 21:41, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough, I actually took it from another article and thought you one of the many Anti-islamic crusading editors out there. You're not, and I apologise, and will leave it at your version. --Irishpunktom\talk 14:36, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] al-Khattab

What's with all the reverts to the Yousef al-Khattab sites? Is there a real difference between the two sites?Benami 23:54, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] what is with this page?

excuse the bluntness, but I find this page absolutely ridiculous. why does an encyclopdia need a list of people that excepted islam? This article should either be deleted or changed to something according to subject (Muslims in the media) or regional (Muslims in the united states/UK) otherwise you might as well include the name of everyone of Muhammad's companions here because, Hey! they accepted Islam! please tell me how I ccan vote for this to be removedWilis.azm 00:51, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


Well, there is a List of converts to Judaism and a List of converts to Christianity. I don't think there is any malicious intent here Mrbluesky 08:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


Excuse my bluntness Wilis.azm but your argument is ridiculous seeing as there are Wikipedia pages listing Converts to Christianity and Converts to Judaism.

Wilis.azm is either ignorant of Wikipedia, ignorant in general as gathered from his comment/argument or even possibly both.

However, to be fair, there is a vastly disproportionate effort here to introduce negative informtion about Islam, given the extensive coverage of "crimes."

--Taz Manchester 17:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] For this page to be balanced...

I've looked at the Converts to Christianity and they're isn't a list of criminals and terrorists who have converted to Christianity. I think that a section like this needs to be added to the various other 'Converts' pages or deleted from here (prefereably added to the other pages as it is factual information). However, at the moment it seems this page dwells on the negative stereotypes prevailent in the media about associating violence with Islam, when most other religons are equally prone to this association yet never addressed in the detail that Islam suffers from.

WHAT IS WITH THIS PAGE.... How did you find this page in the first place? Dumbo —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.9.68.180 (talk • contribs).

I found it quite nice. Mrbluesky 17:54, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] new order

This list should get any order, maybe alphabetical. Compare it with the german (and soon coming french) list, for example. By the way, in german wikipedia now is a new discussion about delete it or not. Greetings from Good Old Germany 11:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

This kind of list constitue an offense against de law of privacy in Belgium and in France...see the discussion in the french version page...

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Pages_%C3%A0_supprimer/Liste_des_personnalit%C3%A9s_converties_%C3%A0_l%27Islam

--87.65.209.241 13:44, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Nice new order... well-done! Greetings from Good Old Germany 10:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of "not yet classified"

It seems a user misunderstood and erroneously readded this section. I removed this list because I cleaned it up and readded the entries to the different applicable categories, hence it is redundant. Several entries were deleted because they did not show up on Google, hence were not notable. As always, users are welcome to readd non-redundant and notable entries --Xorox 07:13, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay I don't think that all of them were added into it and some are notable. I think you can say all the one's that are not notable here. --a.n.o.n.y.m t 02:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I am afraid, readding this category will not stimulate other users to look for a suitable category. This implies a lot of extra work. As it is comparatively easy to create a new category, don't you think that this is the preferred solution? --Xorox 09:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Companions of Mohammed

I think they should not be mentioned here, excepted maybe the first real non-arabs who adopted Islam: the ethiopian Bilal and the iranian Salman. Greetings from Good Old Germany 10:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

But they were converts anyhow. Quite important ones, I would like to state. --Xorox 11:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rumoured converts

I added a new category "Rumored converts" in which those which are rumoured to have been converted can be placed. It does not seem to beharmful, though. --Xorox 11:17, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Would Napoleon Bonaparte fit into this category? He reportedly converted to Islam during the 1798 campaign in Egypt in order to gain favor from the local population, according to some biographies. However, he did not practice it afterwards and returned to Catholicism. i deleted kanoute and sissoko from sports as they are originally muslims but they were non practicing at certain age but they are now practicing muslims and that is what is written on kanoute wikipedia he became apracticing muslim at the age of 20 but he is not a convert to islam and van persie is married to a muslim but he never disclosed his faith so he didnot announce his conversion officially like ribery who announced it everywhere ricardo kaka is a rumoured convert so stop adding him that his denial in italian to the rumour of his conversion and that is in arabic the denial of the arabic channel that broadcasted the news first after they discovered that it was untrue

http://www.alarabiya.net/Articles/2006/10/17/28331.htm http://www.kooora.com/default.aspx?showarticle=14941&obj=0 http://www.goal.com/it/articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=147003

and also jibril cisse is a convert to chrsitianity from islam not the opposite and henry didnot announce his conversion too so probably a rumour too

[edit] Not-notable converts

I renamed this section because it is a characteristic all those converts share. Being the subject of an journalistic article alone is not notable enough for Wikipedia. I would like to suggest to delete this section and am welcomign your views on thematter. --Xorox 08:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I recatted those entries, I hope this recat can find mercy in the eyes of other editors. --Xorox 09:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dates

It would be helpful if this article included the year of conversion for each person listed. —Psychonaut 18:34, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vladimir Khodov

"Vladimir Khodov, suspected by Russian authorities to be a terrorist, allegedly participated in Beslan raid. Converted from Russian Orthodoxy [29]"

"suspected"? "allegedly"? It is pathetic. Because the "t" word is being used, it must necessarily be qualified by adjectives such as this? The only question about this guy is whether he was a double agent, as claimed by Basaev, or not. By the way, there is a lot of doubt whether he ever was a member of the Russian Orthodox church. Read the article on him. --pgp 12:57, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] David Myatt

Have changed designation from "right-wing activist" to "Neo-Nazi Activist" for David Myatt, as the man is a self-proclaimed Neo-Nazi. I think he might/should be moved to the "Terrorist" category. Y'all can let me know what you think on my talk page. I've not taken that second action as yet, but I might later. --V. Joe 02:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


David Myatt has not been convicted of any Terrorist offences and has not committed any Crimes.It states in the article itself when mentioning all links in whatever form they may be to terrorism or crime that they are ALLEGED. So what is your actual reasoning and motive behind the move you have taken?


I expect the article on David Myatt will now be put back to its original place in the Politics related section of the article.


--Taz Manchester 17:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed add for sunnipath

Enough said. V. Joe 22:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sentence Phrasing

Aisha - from Arabian paganism; according to hadith, married Muhammad at the age of nine, see Aisha.

Hi Netscott,

I think that the phrase "allegedly married Muhammad" doesn't sound bad either. Besides, the young marriage age controversy link provides all the details of the topic anyway ...

Silver crescent 05:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crime related

There should not be a section for crime related. There isn't one for christainty or judaism, why should there be here Bazel 18:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

All of the individuals on this article are there for their WP:Notability. The "Crime related" section exists because those listed there are notable due to crimes. This list isn't for "positive" converts to Islam but just "converts to Islam". The logic you're mentioning here just means that for neutrality reasons notable Chrisitian and Jewish converts who are primarily notable for their crimes could/should be added to those lists. Netscott 14:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The reason there isn't is because List of converts to Christianity and List of converts to Judaism are alphabetical and not by occupation. Religious lists that cite occupation sometimes do include a criminal section. See List of Baptists#Criminals, List of Latter-day Saints#Controversial figures and alleged Criminals, and List of Lutherans#Murderers. If you wish to switch to an alphabetical or maybe chronological arrangement I guess that could be discussed, but there is other examples of a criminals section in religious lists.--T. Anthony 13:05, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I think it should exist. As I mentioned above there is List of Baptists#Criminals, List of Latter-day Saints#Controversial figures and alleged Criminals, and List of Lutherans#Murderers. That said those subsections aren't as full of red-names and in some cases have none at all. Filling it so full of red-names, even though they were generally sourced, does concern me a bit. Not every person who converts to Islam and then graffitis a church or even joins Al-Qaeda is notable enough to be listed here. I kept some red names when they were widely enough sourced they seemed to be newsworthy. I also added a section for converts to Ahmadiyya as I know some Muslims consider it heretical, but converts to it are in the Category. Also I brought back the NOI section, but I'm less wedded to that staying on.--T. Anthony 10:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Why is James Yee, who was only accused of a crime, and who has been exhonerated ("charges were dropped") been listed in the section on criminals? There should be another section on those unjustly persecuted like James Lee.

[edit] Companions of The Prophet

ther are a lot of campanions of the prophet, how about we put them in a different page and link to them from here. there are over 55 companions Bazel 16:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, this article is a list. Why not just add them? Netscott 16:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inclusion in the list vs. proof of conversion (re: Michel Aflaq)

The beginning of the article states that the list should include those "who have converted to Islam." To me, these words mean that a person's inclusion on this list should be based upon clear proof that the person in fact converted.

I attempted to make this point regarding Michel Aflaq, since the only primary source for this alleged conversion was Saddam Hussein's Information Ministry. Given the lack of corroboration from other sources, I don't believe that this Wiki article should assert the Baathist Party's claims as fact, unless someone believes that they were a neutral source of information in this instance.

With Michel Aflaq's inclusion on the list, I have to question the POV neutrality in the article. I think that he should either be removed from the list, or he should be in a sub-category that would be upfront about the dubiousness of claim.

I'd like to hear what others think about this.Mfadoul 07:27 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Usually in such situations it's best to cite the source for the claim or "fact" in the article so that readers can establish in their own minds the validity of a given bit of information. Bear in mind though that reliable source guidelines and Wikipedia:Verifiability take precendence particularly concerning information of a biographical nature of living persons and in correspondance to those guidelines and policies information is to flat out be removed from Wikipedia as needed. (→Netscott) 17:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Based on the Wikipedia guideline for reliable sources, I removed the Michel Aflaq reference. This claim is exclusively made by the Baathist party. Quoting the Wiki guidelines (the section called Partisan websites), "Partisan political and religious (or anti-religious) sources should be treated with caution, although political bias is not in itself a reason not to use a source. Widely acknowledged extremist political, religious, anti-religious and other websites — for example, those belonging to Stormfront, Hamas, the Aryan Nations website or the Socialist Workers Party — should never be used as sources for Wikipedia, except as primary sources, that is, in articles discussing the opinions of that organization or the opinions of a larger like-minded group, but even then should be used with great caution, and should not be relied upon as a sole source." Matthew Fadoul 04:54, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Militant Or Terrorist?

Most of the militants are either terrorists, suspected as terrorists or have committed acts of terrorism. How can they be militants??

Participating in legitimate military operations in itself is not terrorism according to any definition.
WHAT? Are you telling me that blowing up innocent civilians in the name of Allah is NOT terrorism? How is that supposed to be a legitimate military operations? So I guess the Taliban and al-Qaeda people are now freedom fighters. Go figure. So how would you respond if I said that Christians should blow themselves up and launch a crusade against 3 million Muslims for the deaths of 3 million Christians in the 20th century? (1.5 during WWI committed by Islamic Assyrians and 1.5 by Islamic Sudanese rebels) Isn't that a "legitimate military operation?"--Canadia 12:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, screaming at other editors and calling them names in your edit summaries doesn't help your case :/. Not saying it's wrong, just that you're pushing your information forth in the wrong ways. Homestarmy 03:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Going back to the first suggestion, I would say that anybody who thinks that "terrorists" should be regarded as "militants" is just nuts. The word militant evokes a kind of valour, even if one dies. Terrorists are an entity that is totally different; they kill people in the name of religion and God. There is absolutely no valour or heroism in that. --205.189.150.1 19:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Well ignoring the first 3 extremist and subjective comments above, I would look to the definitions Wikipedia uses itself:

  • The word militant can refer to any individual engaged in warfare, a fight, combat, or generally serving as a soldier. Journalists often use militant as a purportedly neutral term for violent actors who do not belong to an established military. Typically, a militant engages in violence as part of a claimed struggle for achievement of a political goal.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militant

  • Terrorism is a controversial and subjective term with multiple definitions. One definition means a violent action targetting civilians exclusively. Another definition is the use or threatened use of violence for the purpose of creating fear in order to achieve a political, economic, religious, or ideological goal. ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist


As Wikipedia points out Militant is a neutral term and Terrorist is a controversial and subjective term with multiple definitions.

[edit] NOI

The Nation of Islam does not fit under the blanket of Islam. NOI draws from both Christian and Islamic theology, but it's primary belief system is nationalist/racialist. This section needs to be deleted. --Kitrus 04:33, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I notice that some NOIs (like Muhammad Ali and Malcolm X) are listed, but others are being rv'd out. Has a consensus been reached? At this point, the article is inconsistent. --Macduff 02:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Malcolm X rather famously distanced himself from NOI at one point, publicly condemning NOI's 'prophet' Elijah Mohammed for his personal life and his teachings, and the racial philosophies of NOI. He converted to Sunni Islam after returning from Hajj. According to his article, Mohammed Ali also converted to mainstream Sunni Islam. Falcon2020 05:36, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

And how about Michael Jackson, currently listed here as a convert? All that it says in his article is that there were media reports that he had converted to NOI; and later reports that he was building a mosque. Macduff 06:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tables

The article looks a little messy, mainly because the size of each information table is unproportional, when compared to one another. Perhaps it would be better to either erase the tables altogether or make them all the same size. Silver crescent 04:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] additions

Sources report that Robin Van Persie, the Dutch footballer is also a convert to Islam. Being that he has neither admitted or denied this claim, I think it would be best if a new list be compiled with the heading 'Alleged Muslim Converts' as there are also a number of other personalities who have been rumored to have converted to Islam (see above posts) Thank-you —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.122.0.32 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Companions of Muhammad

This is a silly section, of course all of first Muslims convert to Islam. If we include all of them shouldnt muhammad be number one convert?Opiner

[edit] Ahmadis

I knew listing him in a subsection would be controversial, but should Yusef Lateef also be removed from Category:Converts to Islam?--T. Anthony 16:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

John Allen was never a mainstream Muslim. He did joined the racist organization Nation of Islam for the "million man march" in 1995 but was kicked out in 1999. Despite this brief period with NOI, this criminal is classified as Muslim here as it suits the agenda of some editors. What more? his junior partner was not even a member of NOI, ever!
If Ahmadis are not Muslims then NOI people are not Muslims either, and the ex members of NOI are most certainly not Muslims. Not questioning John Allen the criminal and questioning Yusef Lateef the musician would be hypocracy. Hassanfarooqi 14:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
NOI people are often removed, but continue to be re-added. NOI is one of the more well-known Muslim/Muslim-derived faiths in North America, the English Wikipedia is likely North American dominant, so that might be the reason. Ahmadis are not particularly well-known in North America so when removed, and I believe Lateef was removed by a Muslim, they stay removed. To be honest I don't know how I feel about it as I'm not any form of Muslim. (I do like Lateef's music and got interested in it partly due to Wikipedia) From what I gather there's one kind of Ahmadi that's seen as more like Islam than the other, but both are seen as not counting or something? Anyway I thought it was more debated than NOI as I knew NOI was not counted as Muslim by most schools of Islamic thought. Ending question. Do the Ismailis have converts? Would they count or not count?--T. Anthony 08:37, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Including former muslims?

Is it really acceptable to include the names of former muslims on this list?--Sefringle 00:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Will Smith Islam conversion is a hoax ?.

Noticed this was part of a revert war so lets discuss. The [1] entry attributes to the The American Muslim Association of North America ( http://www.al-amana.org/) but nothing has been quoted that he has said. The other USAToday [2] says

"He's friends with vocal Scientologist Tom Cruise and attended Cruise's wedding in Italy. Although Smith has learned about the controversial religion, he has not converted to it. He says he's a connoisseur of all faiths.

"I want to go on the hajj to Mecca," Smith says. "I don't believe in religious separatism. I love people, and I don't believe that the twin towers getting knocked down means all Muslims are bad."

and from that we can deduce he is certainly NOT a scientologist but we cannot say he is a Muslim. Our own editors say that as he wants to visit Mecca and use this as proof. This is clearly WP:OR and not admitted. If I wanted to visit the North Pole that doesn't make me a Innuit (I've only got as far as the Polar Circle and it was cold). So nothing real from Smith that can be added as WP:LIVING applies. I'm removing Smith. Ttiotsw 06:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Will Smith's conversion is neither a hoax not a truth. The rumors about his conversion had spread after 9/11 when Muslims were in trouble, he stood by his role model, former world heavyweight boxing champion Muhammed Ali, and paid tribute to him and his faith. Soon after the rumors, he respectfully denied his conversion. Hassanfarooqi 18:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
So it is a hoax as it was propagated by others for effect (and obviously not the truth). At least that is clear now. Someone needs to advise User:Truthspreader as he got another user blocked when the other user removed that hoax material. Ttiotsw 05:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
It is somewhat ambiguous, though I would think that this is, indeed, a hoax. Unfortunately, there are two sources (the "Ali"-era press release and the USA Today profile) that suggest an affiliation with Islam, and no clear denial from Mr. Smith. It is a tricky situation. Unrelated to this, Cousteau is not a convert at all (Letter from the Cousteau Fondation in French). That is a clear canard. Mrbluesky 15:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Case closed: I saw the following excerpt in an article about Smith in "Entertainment Weekly", dated December 15, 2006, p.48 :
And even though Smith hasn't converted to Scientology - "I'm riding with Jesus", he says - he does cite Cruise as a role model.
So he is obviously still Christian. Mrbluesky 23:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Crimes section

I belive that this section should be removed.I am very offended by the fact that there is a crimes section in the article. Islam teaches peace and NON-violence and this section is simply giving the message that Islam is a violent religion. IT IS NOT. In fact, the word ISLAM means peace and submission. Why isn't there a section talking about Christian or Jewish criminals? If there isn't any such section, then there shouldn't be an Islamic one...

                                                               Mhmoud Essalah--Mhmoud Essalah 23:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Unreal. D'oh! this is the "List of Muslim converts". I'm at a loss as to where we'd stick the Christian or Jewish criminals in such a list. Islam as a word primarily means submission. The peace comes after everyone has submitted. That people don't want to be submitted on means that peace isn't always a done deal. Same with Wikipedia edits. Ttiotsw 23:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Remove the Crimes section

As a couple of other people have already mentioned, the crime section of this page is completely unnecessary and it is very offending to us Muslims. This is ignorant stereo typing and should not be tolerated in an educational article. I demand this section be removed, as my attempts to do it have failed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Keranu (talk • contribs) 10:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC).

You've not cited any reason that corresponds to Wikipedia policy about why that section should be removed. The section is very well sourced and cited and pertinent to this list. This list isn't entitled, "List of positive Muslim converts" but just "List of Muslim converts". The individuals listed in the crimes section are rather notable as converts. (→Netscott) 10:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Well if you think it should be kept because those criminals are "notable" converts, then why don't you just make a seperate page for them or leave them included in a Muslim terrorist page. It's extremely rude to leave this section up. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Keranu (talk • contribs) 22:23, 21 December 2006 (UTC).
Why, I don't see how it could be make it less offensive to list them on a separate page. I guess it could only make things worse (Imagine :"List of criminal Muslim converts"?) I think the section should stay. Mrbluesky 23:17, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I think having a seperate page for it would make it steer away from a positive thing (people finding Islam because it's peaceful, not to become terrorists). However I think the best option would be to include those converts in a page that deals with Islamic terrorism. That way people know what to expect when they see a page called "Islamic Terrorism". If this isn't good enough for you guys, then how about adding a list of criminals for other articles like list of converts to Christianity and Judaism.
To be fair, how about reorganizing the article by listing the converts by previous religious persuasion (like in the Jewish and Christian list of converts)? However, honesty should lead us to indicate "criminal" or "terrorist" as an occupation when appropriate. What does everybody think? Mrbluesky 01:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay, so lets just go out and add a List of Blacks that love to eat fried chicken on the African American article

while we are it, right? We could research any famous African Americans that admitted their love to fried chicken and just throw it on up in the article because it's not violating any rules.

This issue of using fried chicken as a catagory is nonsense. The issue is "list of notable people who have converted to Islam sometime during their lives." . If a person's diet made them notable then we would have that as a catagory. If their notability is due to crimes then that is where they are listed. Until major criminals become non-notable and are not reported by reliable sources (an unlikely scenario) the crimes section must stay. Ttiotsw 01:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I didn't quite get the thing about fried chicken (I hope it's not because of that racist cliche, is it?). Anyway, my point was the Judaism and Christianity lists were organized by previous religious affiliation, not by activity. It is true that it would be a travesty to erase the names, but we could sort the list differently for parallelism purposes. Mrbluesky 02:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Neither did I - some IP address started going on about bbq chicken and made me hungry (not being American I have no idea WTF thats about). That aside, the other articles probably need changing then to adopt the same format as this one. It seems illogical to have a notable list and then order that list on the the least important thing in that persons life i.e. their former religion !. They will always be a sports person irrespective of what religion they feel they have chosen today. Ttiotsw 01:24, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd have to disagree. When you are talking about religious conversion the former religion is often quite relevant and important. In many cases their family remains of the former religion and therefore they still have to deal with that religious community at times. In addition it's common for converts to be intentionally seeking in the new religion something they felt was lacking in their old one. Previous ideas just said "delete any mention of criminals" and I still disagree with that. However a different organizing scheme that can still mention criminals shouldn't reduce any information.--T. Anthony 05:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Try another approach - if a person becomes a vegan or vegetarian then would it be illogical to list them under a list of "Former meat eaters" ? No, that is definitely not what they would want. If a sports person becomes a vegan then this is an important decision for them but they still are a sports person - that is how they became notable not because of what they were on their diet (or religion) previously. I wouldn't try and argue that the decision to be a vegetarian is taken lightly nor has significant impact to the persons life or those around them: the decision to be a vegetarian is as complex and life changing as picking a new religion. The catagory the people are in is why they are notable and as such I will propose that the other articles are reorganised on this line. Ttiotsw 07:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I think I see your point. However, I have two objections. One, few if any people identify as "meat-eaters" whereas people tend to think of their religious affiliation as a decisive part of themselves. Moreover, if you chose to become a vegetarian, it means necessarily that you used to eat meat, whereas you can convert to Islam from any religion, so it is maybe notesworthy to track the religious background of Muslim converts.
Then again, I don't think that a listing organized by previous religions is per se better, but it would be more logical when compared to the "Converts to Christianity" and "Converts to Judaism" lists. Mrbluesky 13:20, 6 January 2007 (UTC).
I agree with the above, you're analogy doesn't quite make sense. It's implied that when someone becomes a vegetarian they were previously a person who ate meat. However let's say an advocate of the Atkin's diet became a vegetarian, would their past be relevant? I think it could in many cases. Let's further say someone became a Marxist. Is their having previously been a Fascist relevant? I'd say definitely as it might effect how they view both Fascism and Marxism.--T. Anthony 10:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
As a new person coming in to this discussion, I find the existence of a Crimes (and Terrorists) section to be odd. The List of Converts to Judaism, Christianity, and Hinduism pages all list people by the religion they were converting from, not by their profession or police record. It seems like this List of Muslim converts is unique in its attempt to quantify Muslims as to whether or not they are terrorists. John Lennon's murderer, the Unabomber, and other noted criminals who were converts to Christianity are not listed on the Converts to Christianity page; nor do I think they should be. I think it's more constructive all around not to focus on such things. Doing so only adds to the conflict. -- Macduff 18:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe this should be written by former religion/sect. However as long as it is written by career/clame to fame, the crime section must stay for the purpose of NPOV. Otherwise we are just being factually inaccurate, and are pushing the POV that all converts are good after conversion, which is a lie.--Sefringle 03:29, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Forced conversion

There are a number of individuals who has been forced to "convert". I suggest putting them under their own header, since most sane people would agree that if you have been forced to convert, then it's not a real conversion at all. Rune X2 12:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

An different analogy here is historically (and maybe today) the use of baptism as a mechanism to convert 'x' to Christianity. Most sane people would agree that if you have been cohersed or unwittingly or unknowingly been baptised, then it's not a real conversion to a faith at all. The Catholic church disagrees with you. I cite an example in Richard Dawkins The God Delusion page 311 onwards with the case of Edgardo Mortara. Ttiotsw 01:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm Catholic and you're incorrect. (Although I'll forgive that as you're going by Dawkins who is not a historian or a psychologist of religion) Catholics even in Edgardo Mortara's day were forbidden from forced baptism. Going back to the twelfth century Pope Callixtus II stated that Jews were only to be baptized of their own free-will. Centuries earlier, in the early fourth century AD, Lactantius stated religion can not be forced on anyone. This predates Islam. The events that led to Mortara being baptized were basically illegal, but unfortunately the thinking at that time was that once it happened the child had to be raised Catholic. In any event it was a different era. To suggest Catholics of today believe in forced conversion is deeply insulting and is, in any event, irrelevant to this list.--T. Anthony 06:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
...and yet babies today, right as we speak (added for effect), are being baptised without their consent. I find it deeply insulting that in many countries children are effectively not given the chance to decide for themselves but are forced into the religion of their parents' choosing. Islam is equally obnoxious in this regards with no comparative religion being offered to children in schools in so-called Islamic countries. There are grounds to compare forced conversions to Islam with Catholic baptismal practices as there is an analogy in that if someone has no choice through being incarcerated but in a future time when they are not incarcerated may decide not to be converted then this is the same as a baby or child who in time may not decide to be converted to Christianity. Ttiotsw 04:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
This is not the same at all. Unless you think all life is a form of forced conversion as you are born to parents you don't choose and they influence your development. Or unless you believe the Baptism has some powerful supernatural effect. Otherwise the kid is just getting sprinkled with water and being raised by their Catholic parents. (I'm speaking of normal cases, not Mortara's) Just as the kid might be born of English-speaking parents who are US citizen. (Or Portuguese and Brazilian citizens, whatever) Maybe the kid would've been happier speaking Icelandic in Iceland? Maybe the kid should have a choice what nation or language it adheres to. Iceland is higher up in human development than the US or Brazil, maybe that'd be the right choice. However the kid has no choice in the matter. They also have no choice over what music their parents listen to as a baby or what not. Still Catholics have the option not to get confirmed and to leave. If a kid decides at fourteen or even eighteen that the US just isn't his or her thing, tough for them. That's life though and many things in your childhood you don't choose, to compare that to forced conversion is bordering on ludicrous.--T. Anthony 19:13, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Mrbluesky 01:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with this because it steers away from the teachings of the Quran: "There is no compulsion in religion" (2:256) . Leave it be for another article.

The Quran is a primary source. To use that as justification for anything on Wikipedia would clearly fail no-original-research WP:NOR. The issue is would they be considered apostate if they presented the case in front of a Sharia based court/judge and declared that their conversion was a sham and that they are now really 'x' ? Would they make it out of the country alive ? Ttiotsw 01:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not think forced conversions should be on this list, especially if the people who were forced to convert decide not to be Muslims after their supposed "conversion". Also forced conversions are not allowed in Islamic law, as you mentioned above "There is no compulsion in religion"Wraith12 18:24, 6 January 2007 (UTC)Wraith12

...this is not true as apostacy is not allowed in Islamic law. Thus there is compulstion in this religion in that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible to break free of this, now typified, delusion. Ttiotsw 04:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clear bias: American converts

The opening paragraph says that 20,000 Americans convert to Islam. Is there not something inherently wrong with starting off with a fact that targeting a traditionally Christian country? Does it then not reveal that their is a hidden anti-Christian bias that some of these Muslims editors are trying to dissimulate? --Canadia 03:22, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Given that the article is about conversion to Islam, I think conversion rate statistics is relevent. But sources should be referenced and in this case, they aren't. Macduff 03:39, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
The topic at hand is "List of Muslim Converts" so the implication is that this page should broadcast a list of Muslim converts in all areas of the world, not just the United States or Europe which are traditionally Christian territories and, given the current geopolitical milieu today, are perceived by Arab countries to be the primal enemies of Islam. That is explicit anti-West/Christian bias. --Canadia 05:27, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Canadia, aren't you being a bit hypocritical, in the lists of converts to Christianity page, it has statistics of 20,000 Muslims in America converting to Christianity, and 6 million Muslims in Africa converting to Christianity (which I find it a bit exaggerated). Does that reveal a hidden anti-Muslim bias of some Christian editors of that page? Because they go after Muslims specifically, whereas this page just says Americans and Europeans, which doesn't mean just Christians, because there are a lot of other different religions in America and Europe, such as Jews, Atheists, and Hindus, who may also be some of the people in the statistics who converted to Islam. Wraith12 18:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC)Wraith12

Not exactly. In the Converts to Christianity page, the page itself is compartmentalized into people who have converted to Christianity according to their previous faiths. The way this page is organized is such that it is sorted into people who have converted to Islam in accordance to their occupation. I also find it highly questionable that the statistic targets America and Western Europe which, traditionally, are Christian countries (America is currently the LARGEST exporter of Christian missionaries around the world, and Western Europe was the launchpad of Christian crusades). By the way, why mention only America and Europe? Why not mention South America? Or Oceana? Why only American and Europe? Is it because of the current geopolitical situation around the world today and the clear anti-Western/anti-Christian bias that most Muslims harbour? --Canadia 19:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

So far I haven't found statistics of Muslim converts from other countries, if I do I would certainly put it in the opening paragraph, this list also contains converts from non-Western countries and converts from other religions besides Christianity, so I do not see any anti-West/Christian bias in this article.Wraith12 18:20, 6 January 2007 (UTC)Wraith12

Look, although you may deny this, almost 90% of the list is comprised of either Western/Christian converts to Islam. It is a subtle, but known fact that although Islamic conversion websites such as www.convertoislam.com like to present the idea that people from ALL faiths convert to Islam, most of the people that convert to Islam ARE CHRISTIANS. Little wonder why 90% of thie list is comprised of Christians converting to Islam. Why? Because mullahs and Islamic religious leaders are mainly targeting Christians to convert to Islam! And why is that? Because Christianity is by FAR the largest religion in the WORLD, something that most Islamic scholars and Muslims would definitely like to see changed. On almost the same breath, Muslim converts to Christianity are killed, rape and persecuted. How hypocritical that is, eh Wraith? --Canadia 19:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
This seems to be a "recentist" perspective. Historically speaking many to most of the societies that became Muslim were not Christian beforehand. The "core area" of Islam had been largely Christian, but even then Paganism and forms of Zoroastrianism were relatively common. Further Iran was Zoroastrian and Manichean. Outside the core area Indonesia was Hindu or indigenous religions, West Africa was polytheistic, and much of Central Asia had been Buddhist. Converts to Islam from those places/eras have few to no articles either because none of them are notable or more likely because early West African or Indonesian history is poorly covered at Wikipedia. Even in modern times much of Islamic conversion is still occurring among non-Christian peoples in Africa or Southeast Asia. Logically speaking I'd think Christians would actually be slightly less likely to convert than them as Christians are usually in a better financial position and have a more developped theology to debate with Islam. Now if you're meaning "people notable to Wikipedia" than 90% of them were raised Christian so any conversion list will largely be Christians. See List of converts to Hinduism.--T. Anthony 10:26, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
your points are a mixture of original research and soapboxing. if the article neglects to mention conversion rates in other countries, feel free to include them. mentioning the growth of Islam in the West is significant simply because it's obvious that this is where the greatest rate of conversion is occuring, and this is where most of the people on the list are from. the addition of an inappropriate and irrelevant tag (clearly the strongest one you could find) remains unjustified. ITAQALLAH 19:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Presenting a view for consensus on the talk page is not what soapboxing is about. The soapbox policy is talking about articles. A better way of stating it is that if such points were added they would be original research unless they were cited or make the article non-neutral in a blatant way. Muslim converts to "atheism" are probably killed (no cites- just a hunch) and "atheist" converts to Islam are rare (or non-existant in notable people). To me watching Christians slug it over with Muslims is like watching a train-crash (Jews probably also watch the battle with trepidation but with a puzzling look of "but we were first anyway") but hey - I digress. Ttiotsw 20:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
i would tend to view inappropriate, unrelated comments (which are indeed present in the above statements) as using the talk page as a platform for advocation; a forum; a soapbox. yes the policy refers to articles, yet talk pages are designed to accomodate discussion on how to improve the article, not irrelevant and unhelpful tirades against group A. ITAQALLAH 22:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I would like you to PROVE to me how, IN ANY WAY, the presentation of those statistics are not biased against Christians or the West. The paragraph mentions only American and Europe which are traditionally Christian and Western countries. Unless you can prove to me that that article is not biased against Christians, I remain unconvinced that this article is neutral. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Canadia (talk • contribs) 23:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC).
that is requesting me to provide negative proof. the default assumption is that the intro is not biased, you are the one who must prove that it is. currently, you have not responded to the point i made. ITAQALLAH 22:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I, too, disagree with Canadia. The available conversion statistics are quoted in a clear unbiased manner and citations/references are provided. They do not mention "Christians," but are instead grouped by geographical location. The fact that certain locations may be missing does not make the article biased, but is a reflection that such statistics, if they exist, seem to be difficult to come by. I dispute Canadia's claim that the article is biased and suggest that if the stats and alleged western focus bother him, he track down some stats and converts from other countries, and/or some lower US/EU stats that could also be cited. -- Macduff 14:16, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I have found some articles from neutral sources such as BBC and the CS monitor, about Muslim converts from non-Western countries such as Rwanda, South Africa, Mexico, Israel, and the Philippines, but some do not provide exact numbers of how many people from those countries convert to Islam each year so I do not know if I should put them in the introduction. Here are some of the sources [3], [4], [5], [6] Also this page does not have Anti-West/Christian propaganda like Canadia suggests, there are also other pages of Christians converting to Hinduism, and Judaism in this website. These statistics are relevant for this article, just like the statistics of Muslims converting to Christianity in the Convert to Christianity page is relevant for that article. The statistics on this page came from a neutral source and has been cited. This page is a list of notable people converting to Islam. Just because most of these people on this list used to be Christian does not mean there is an Anti-Christian propaganda on this page, it just means there there are more famous Converts from Christianity to Islam who have articles about them in Wikipedia, then there are famous people who used to follow other religions besides Christianity. Also the topic that apostates of Islam getting persecuted is not a relevant topic for this article, there are other articles in Wikipedia that cover this topic, and the statistics that are in the opening paragraph are not from biased sources such as www.convertoislam.com, they are from Christian Science Monitor, which is a neutral, and reliable source. Also most sites that attempt to convert people to their religion are inherently biased, there are many Christian sites that attempt to convert Muslims to Christianity such as www.answeringislam.org, Canadia also mentioned that America is the largest exporter of Christian missionaries, many of them go to Muslim countries attempting to convert Muslims to Christianity, perhaps because Islam is the second largest religion in the world and growing fast and they would like to halt the growth of Islam, and because many of the people who run those sites as well as these Missionary programs have an Anti-Muslim bias, so why would you criticize Muslims for trying to convert Christians, when Christians are also actively trying to convert Muslims? Wraith12 20:45, 10 January 2007 (UTC)Wraith12

[edit] Clear bias: Israeli converts

Clearly the part about Jewish conversions is propaganda. It is only 70 (a very small number of people). Mentioning that is propaganda.--Sefringle 09:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Sefingle, the part of Jewish conversions was only added because of complaints from Canadia that this article only displays information of Christian converts, it is not meant to be propaganda against Jews. The source of that information came from a Jewish Israeli internet news site, not from a Muslim propaganda site so I do not see that information as being a type of propaganda.Wraith12 18:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)Wraith12

70 is a very small number of people. It is propagnada, since it would be giving undue weight to this minor occurance. It isn't like there are thousands of Jews converting to Islam. Its only 70. That hardly counts as news, and mentioning it gives extra weight to the number of converts--Sefringle 04:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC).
Are you actually suggesting that an article whose purpose is to list religious converts shouldn't mention that people are converting their religion? How is giving a factual figure, either small or large, propoganda? As far as 70 being a "small" number, I believe the number applies only to the number of converts in Israel during a specific year, not around the globe. The article that gave the figure reported it as large, not small, and said that the number was significant because it is a marked percentage increase from previous years. The fact that this Wikipedia article doesn't even mention that the number is an increase over previous years makes me doubt your propaganda claim. -- Macduff 05:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Readers aren't stupid. They will understand that 70 is a small number, and assign it importance in their minds accordingly. I can well imagine someone coming to this article specifically looking for information on figures for Muslim conversion by country. As long as figures are available for a certain country, they should be included. Readers will then be able to see whether a country has a high or a low rate of conversion. —Psychonaut 10:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the article about Jews converting to Islam in Israel, suggests that there is a growing trend of conversions to Islam in that country, given that Israel has a relatively small population compared to most countries, 70 people is a significant number and is a relevant topic for this article and is not meant to be propaganda. If the number of people was not significant, then why would there be a news article about it in the first place? The Converts to Christianity page also have statistics of people from different religions and countries converting to Christianity, does that serve as propaganda in that site?Wraith12 08:50, 13 February 2007 (UTC)Wraith12

It still doesn't change the fact that it is a very small percentage and we are giving it undue weight. There are 7,000,000 people in Israel. 70 people would compose 0.001% of the population. Israel's growth rate is 1.18%- .04% greater than the population growth rate of the world. Clearly recognizing this 0.001% of Israel is giving it undue weight. The news often reports about things that aren't that important or notable, and often they make things more notable than they should be. They do this, because they often don't have a better story to report on, but they have to have something to present their audience with.--Sefringle 01:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems to be 3 saying it's relevent to 1 saying it's bias. Anyone else want to pipe in? The article in question is here [7] -- Macduff 03:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maimonides was a "Muslim" for a while?

Inserted {{Disputeabout}} template regarding Maimonides in this list. (Seems many people get thrown into this list helter-skelter by reckless editors and then others have to come along and pull out people who never belonged here in the first place...): The following in List of Muslim converts#Religious figures is disputed: "Maimonides - Jewish philosopher, theologian, and physician forced to convert to Islam under pain of death during the Cordoba massacre of 1148. Reverted to Judaism when his life was no longer under threat.<ref>Lewis (1984), p. 100</ref>" I don't see which book by "Lewis" is even cited here, and does "Lewis" even say that? (I assume this refers to the Arabist Bernard Lewis.) I had once heard that the Rambam did issue a heter (a Halakhic ruling that permits something) for this kind of procedure but I had never heard that it had also happened to himself personally. I read an article in the English Yated a couple of years ago that the Mashhadi Jews in Iran relied on such a ruling by Maimonides, and that it was controversial, yet acceptable according to Halakha. Such a serious claim regarding one of Judaism's foremost rabbis requires more research and verification. Thanks. IZAK 18:42, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing Maimonides from the list

Removed the following because it's disputed by scholars, see talk below, IZAK 04:11, 3 January 2007 (UTC):

  • Maimonides - Jewish philosopher, theologian, and physician forced to convert to Islam under pain of death during the Cordoba massacre of 1148. Reverted to Judaism when he was able to escape to the east.<ref>"Occasional exceptions were made to the rule that the penalty for apostasy was death. A famous case was that of Maimonides, who was forcibly converted to Islam in his birthplace of Spain and reverted to Judaism when he was able to escape to the east. One day, while at the height of his power and fame in Cairo, he was recognized by a Muslim fellow countryman who knew of his earlier conversion and denounced him as an apostate from Islam, demanding the penalty of death. Fortunately for Maimonides, the case was heard by qadi al-Fadil, his friend and patron. The qadi ruled that since Maimonides' conversion to Islam in Cordova had been obtained by force, it was not legally or religiously valid, and his reversion to Judaism did not therefore constitute apostasy." [[Bernard Lewis|Lewis, Bernard]]. ''The Jews of Islam'', Princeton University Press, 1987, p. 100. ISBN 0691008078</ref>


See: There Was None Like Him:

Some reports claim that Maimonides converted to Islam, under duress, while still in Spain; an epistle ascribed to him defends Jews who were compelled to resort to such stratagems. Dr. Nuland quotes his remark: "If a man asks me, 'Shall I be slain or utter the formula of Islam?' I answer, 'Utter the formula and live.' " And yet, as Mr. Davidson is at pains to emphasize, how bad could the persecution have been, since in one epistle Maimonides had the temerity to describe the Prophet Muhammad as "meshuggah"?
These and other Maimonidean puzzles probably won't be resolved soon, if ever. What remains, however, is the amazing and enduring work, both in law and in philosophy. I can't claim that reading or teaching "The Guide of the Perplexed," especially in the lucid translation by Shlomo Pines (1974, but still in print), has lifted any of my own perplexities. If anything, his book has intensified their entanglements. At the same time, however, I like to think that Maimonides has somehow rendered my perplexities fruitful, and what more could one hope for from a book?

See: Chapters On Jewish Literature: Chapter XIII. Moses Maimonides:

When Moses was thirteen years old, Cordova fell into the hands of the Almohades, a sect of Mohammedans, whose creed was as pure as their conduct was fanatical. Jews and Christians were forced to choose conversion to Islam, exile, or death. Maimon fled with his family, and, after an interval of troubled wanderings and painful privations, they settled in Fez, where they found the Almohades equally powerful and equally vindictive. Maimon and his son were compelled to assume the outward garb of Mohammedanism for a period of five years. From Fez the family emigrated in 1165 to Palestine, and, after a long period of anxiety, Moses Maimonides settled in Egypt, in Fostat, or Old Cairo.

See D. S. Margoliouth: The Legend of the Apostasy of Maimonides:

THAT Maimonides at an early period of his career, in order to save his life, professed Mohammedanism, is an assertion which has found favour with some erninent Jewish writers, such as Gratz, who even accuses those who doubt it of "critical imbecility." In spite of this many have done their best to disprove the charge, and the arguments that can be urged against it have probably been stated most forcibly by Dr. Friedlander in the excursus which is appended to his Introduction to the English translation of the Moreh. The latest monograph on this subject is probably that by H. Kahan. called Hat Moses Maimonides dem Krypto-Mohammedanismus gehuldigt? (M-Sziget, 1899). I cannot find that this writer adds anything but rhetoric to what has been said before many times; but he advocatates the cause represented by Friedlander warmly. That the story told by Mohammedan writers of Maimonides' temporary apostasy was untrue seemed to me to follow from the fact that Islam has no mercy for renegades. Tabari (iii. 1434, anno A.H. 242, A. D. 856) gives us a characteristic case of their treatment. "In this year the Caliph put to death a certain Utarid, a Christian who had turned Moslem, and having remained a Moslem many years, apostatized. He was summoned to repent, but refused to return to Islam, and was executed." Hence, if Maimonides had really become a Moslem, be would have had to remain one, or else change his identity..."

See: Oren Kosansky: Reading Jewish Fez: On the Cultural Identity of a Moroccan City:

The old city is rife with symbols that stand for Fez's pre-colonial Jewish heritage. Another such symbol is found in the person Maimonides (1135-1204), the medieval Jewish philosopher, physician and rabbinic author who lived for several years in Fez. He is known as Rambam and Ben Maimum in Jewish parlance, Ibn Mimum in Muslim discourse. Jews and Muslims alike recognize his residence on one of the old city's main thoroughfares. Educated Muslim Fasis identify Ibn Maimun as an important medieval scholar renowned for his religious and scientific knowledge and notable for his Jewish ancestry, his conversion to Islam and his tenure as a teacher in the neighboring Islamic university. (The idea that Maimonides converted to Islam, it should be noted, is inconceivable to most Moroccan Jews I came to know.)

There are many other sources like those above that reveal that it is Muslims who insist on claiming that Maimonides actually "became a Muslim" whereas many Jewish sources claim that is was simply not true, or that the circumstances of the time are just not clear from a historical point of view, and that in any case Maimonides was a boy of 13 at the time and that the family may have simply dressed by taking on the "cloaks" of Arabs in order to escape but that they never became Muslim in any way. Had they done so officially and tried to return to Judaism they would have been executed, as Islam does not allow converts to Islam, or any Muslim for that matter, to return to another religion. IZAK 04:11, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the decision to remove this, and thank you for supplying all that background information, IZAK. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I also concur. Although even if the story were true I generally favor limiting forced conversions on these lists. The validity of them is disputed in most faiths and forced conversions only rarely "take." To some extent these lists are to be about when the attribute, converting or being of some religion, is important to the person's life or notability.--T. Anthony 06:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Agree as well. Jayjg (talk) 03:24, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
As do I. The only rationale Muslims have for claiming "Maimonides converted to Islam" is as one of many means used to attempt to delegitimize every religion but their own. Whether because Muslims are seriously that insecure about the legitimacy of their own religion or otherwise, I can't be certain, but it's curious how Islamist commentators persistently try to coöpt the most revered figures of other religions in an apparent effort to demonstrate that everyone should be a Muslim, and would be, if only they "really knew" what their spiritual leaders "actually believed [as viewed through the warped lens of Muslim misinterpretation and misrepresentation]". This notwithstanding, this sickening trend in muslim polemics has no place whatsoëver in Wikipedia, nor, aside from an article on Muslim subterfuge, in any encyclopedia. TIA, Tomertalk 11:21, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "lies and videotape"

The list presently includes Steve Centanni and Olaf Wiig. Is there any indication anywhere, that supports the assertion that their forced conversions, as a condition of their release, were regarded as "binding" by either of them, or that their these forced conversions are even considered binding by any Muslim authority anywhere in the world? Tomertalk 11:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

We have been discussing this in other sections but WP:LIVING should apply. The title of this section seems to presume some lie was stated by Centanni and/or Wiig. This hasn't been establish (so I have placed the section title in quotes for you - I presume you were alluding to the movie "sex, lies, and videotape" but I don't see how that movie is relevant ?).
These "Muslim authorities"; would that be Sunni, Shia, or maybe Salafi ? What is permitted by some is not allowed by others: we thus would need a representative from each of the various interpretations to state that this was not allowed or is invalid else we may leave out one interpretation in which the conversion is still valid. Thus they would still be apostate if or when they leave Islam. This is an important point as the penalties for apostacy are high (though not as high if you are born into a Muslim environment as far as I know). Ttiotsw 19:49, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Stating the shahadah serves the purpose of letting people around you know that you've accepted Islam, it in of itself isn't a contract. Actually believing is what makes a 'conversion'. I don't think any authority recognizes that a forced conversion amounts to an acceptance of Islam, and the terrorists involved are certainly not authorities in the religion. It must be underscored that not all Muslims believe apostasy is punishable with death. Falcon2020 19:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I was indeed alluding to the title of that movie...sex was irrelevant, so I didn't include it, and the movie itself wasn't particularly germane to the topic I was raising, which is why I didn't say anything about it. I just thought it made a catchy name for this talk section, since what I wanted to discuss was whether or not these two guys should rightly be included in this section. Until they state that their conversion was sincere, I don't think they should be listed here. My own pretty irrelevant speculation is that they have no plans to ever address the issue publicly (regardless of whether or not their conversions were sincere), in order to avoid potentially jeopardizing the lives of anyone else who might find themselves kidnapped as they were, and presented with the opportunity to save their lives by quoting the shahada. Tomertalk 21:22, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I ditto not counting them. I have heard of people who stuck with their forced conversion, but they aren't examples as far as I know. Maybe they could be in an article on Forced conversion, although the current one has problems, but that's it.--T. Anthony 23:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sort By former religion?

Excuse me for asking, but both the page of christian converts and the page of jewish converts are listed according to former religion. Why is this one listed according to the occupation/profession/criminal record? Also, shouldn't the people who converted during or directly after prophet Mohammed's time be listed somewhere else? I would prefer not mixing modern people with people who lived in prophet Mohammed's time. My 2 cent 89.138.131.174 09:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Yup we really need to get those other articles changed as per my other comments in previous sections. The logic being that the former religion is not why the person is listed; they are listed because they are notable in a particular field: that field of expertese is how they should be sorted. IMHO the other articles are wrong (I will suggest they are re-ordered tonight to see if I can get a consensus on this).
Sorting by religion I feel is a stupid order: as if it was a claim of superiority of this religion over the other religion (i.e. the new religion "won" a convert and the old one "lost" a convert). About the only conversion which would be anywhere near relevant would be from atheist to Islam and there are none listed (so far). I wouldn't imagine many atheists would convert to those delusions. A few do e.g. Anthony Flew is a rare case where he has expressed a affinity towards deism but it is conforting that he still does not agree with either Christianity or Islam in that his god is not the "God of any of the revealed religions"; a conforting sentiment as that kind of "revealed" god has proven to date to be a travesty both of and for humanity).
The idea to seperate by dates falls out of having a date next to the entry. There are so few entries yet anyway to warrant seperate sections for centuries or millenia. Ttiotsw 19:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe Jeffrey Lang went from atheist to Islam. You might look at List of ex-atheists and see if I screwed up on any. I tried to remove people who just went from agnosticism to religion or God-belief. Anyway that you think religion is stupid or whatever is fine, for you, but doesn't say much useful how such lists should be arranged. People interested in such lists may well be interested in religions, possibly just for historical curiosity or psychological study, so knowing what their previous religion was can be useful. When say a king converts Islam it is useful, historically speaking, to know what their previous religion was. Because if you know their previous religion you might get a sense of how their conversion impacted neighboring states.--T. Anthony 06:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Read my reply please - I feel that ordering the list by former religion is stupid not that the religion is stupid !. The reason being that the person is notable from what they are and remain. That issue aside it is probably true that someone studying religion would want to know the former religion of notable figures. In that case I know of no atheists who have converted to a religion who are on record prior to their conversion as saying that they are atheists. They are on record after the conversion e.g. in autobiographies or interviews etc. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this. Thus at best we can say "Alleged" Atheist, Agnostic as we have no secondary sources that are able to record that they were an atheist or agnostic. Ttiotsw 22:45, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Well you should read my reply above this post. List of ex-atheists might give you examples of people who were on record as atheist as it's well-sourced. You may question individual names, but several of the former Communists were at least clearly atheistic and so were those raised atheist like Anna Haycraft. As for the other thing sorting them by former religion doesn't mean deleting information on their occupation. If anything you get more information because right now most names are saying something about their occupation even though they're already in a "by occupation" section. Next to Ahmad Rashād is "former NFL football player" for example. There'd be no reason to delete that if we switched to "by former religion." Still another option would be to go alphabetical as List of Catholic converts does.--T. Anthony 01:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
A better question is "What useful purpose do these lists actually serve at all?" Tomertalk 02:07, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I know many Wikipedians despise it, but religion and religious conversion is a perfectly valid subject. It's important to history and anthropology. When Sabbatai Zevi converted to Islam it had a very profound effect on a religious movement and the conversion of Cat Stevens had some ramifications in music history. A list like this, albeit this one is not well-done, can be useful in learning more about examples of conversions.--T. Anthony 06:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

For consistency, it should be sorted by former religion.--Sefringle 07:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I have re-organized this list by former religion for consistency with other conversion lists.--Sefringle 05:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please revert Thierry Henry...

Can someone revert that? I am not allowed to because of 3RR, and I am tired of the people that spell his first name "Terry". Thanks in advance. Mrbluesky 14:37, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Sort of related - I notice that Thierry Henry was removed from the list; then someone else just added him again. Is there a consensus on this? Macduff 01:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Former Names

Some people on this list changed their names upon conversion (such as Cassius Clay to Muhammed Ali). How about including these on this page? - LukeSurl 23:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I think that's interesting information. -- Macduff 01:16, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Note: WP:BIO & WP:BLP & WP:NOR

Editors who want to add people to this article should be aware of these WP policies; any unsourced material - like drop a footnote, folks -- will be reverted. Carlossuarez46 07:23, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more. Pretty soon, we should just delete everyone who isn't sourced.--Sefringle 07:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
So you're the one who is responsible for deleting all the names in this article. I really don't see the point of your arguments, if u read the biography articles of these people it tells you that they are converts to Islam with verifiable sources in them. Judging from your profile I think u may have an Anti-Islam pro Zionist bias, although u claim u have a neutral point of view, considering that I don't see u deleting all the names in the Converts to Christianity, Judaism, or Hinduism page. Names in this article should only be removed it they are not converts, which u can easily find out from reading their individual wikipedia articles. I think u deleting names in this article is just ridiculous and might be considered as vandalism Wikipedia:vandalism, and pretty soon someone should file a complaint against you to the admins of this site.Wraith12 10:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)Wraith12
First of all, I didn't delete any of the names (and you would know that if you checked the history). However I do support the deletion of the unsourced names. If you want to add them back, do so, and provide some citation.--Sefringle 20:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
This page is just a list of people who converted to Islam whose individual articles are sourced and can be easily verified as converts to Islam, this not a biography page, so I do not think the unsourced material rule applies to this page. Instead of deleting names in this article why don't you provide citations yourselves, if u really have a problem with this issue and stop vandalizing this page. Apparently its easy for u to find citations of Muslim Nazis, and terrorists converts but its difficult to find citations of normal non-extremists Muslim converts. I also don't see anyone deleting names from the Converts to Christianity, Judaism, or Hinduism page, so I'm beginning to think that someone has something against Muslims, and is just targeting this page. If this keeps on continuing a moderator should be called in.Wraith12 20:59, 25 February 2007 (UTC)Wraith12
Well half of the pages that were listed didn't have citations on their biography page to begin with, so that arguement doesn't work. Every article should have citations. And if you are so sure there are citations, provide them, and add that person back on the list. However unsourced material does not belong here. Look at List of atheists and List of converts to Judaism for an example. Notice that everyone on that list is sourced.--Sefringle 21:04, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
That is not true most of those pages listed did have citations and were deleted anyways, u just didn't bother reading them, so your argument does not work, also not everyone from the List of converts to Judaism page is cited, check carefully, I just find it hypocritical for someone to delete names of this page while not deleting names from the Converts to Christianity, Judaism, and Hinduism page for the same reason. Either the person responsible stop with this nonsense or a moderator will be called in.Wraith12 21:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)Wraith12
They are now. If you want to delete the unsourced converts on the other pages, go right ahead. But we won't have unsourced material on this page.--Sefringle 22:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Carlossuarez46's note shouldn't be understood as a license to remove those names which are obvious entries, despite their being unsourced. the correct action is to source them. ITAQALLAH 22:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Though if they are unsourced, they shouldn't be listed. If the correct action is to source them, do so. But I said I'll wait a month before removing the unsourced names again, so I won't delete the names again until then (assuming they are still unsourced).--Sefringle 22:42, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
This list is quite bloated. I will start checking the articles and if I can't find a citation anywhere I will start deleting per Jimbo Wales. Arrow740 17:19, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This is exactly what i have been suggesting, why is it hard just to read the individual articles, and find a citation that verifies that that these people are converts? If there is no citations in their article then they should of course be deleted. It just does not make any sense to delete people from this list who are obviously converts to IslamWraith12 03:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)Wraith12

[edit] Deletion per WP:BLP

Per WP:BLP, we don't wait and see, we remove:

Be very firm about high quality references, particularly about details of personal lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just highly questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately, and without discussion from Wikipedia articles, talk pages, and user pages.
This policy applies equally to biographies of living persons and to biographical material about living persons in other articles. The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia, but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material.

People who place unsourced names here of living people will be warned and repeate violators blocked. If there are souces, find them; if there aren't the names stay off. Carlossuarez46 00:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

First of all this is not a Biography of living people page WP:BLP, this is a Wikipedia:Categorization of people page, this is a big difference, for example if you go to List of people form New York, or List of Music Composers from certain countries, not all of these have citations right next to their names, however they have citations in their BLP page that confirms their right to be in their respective catorization page, so your argument is wrong, because different rules applies to these pages, and if someone continues to delete names from this list for no valid reason and place names of criminals and terrorists in the Media, Arts, and entertainment section, a complaint will be sent to a moderator because this is an obvious attempt of vandalism. Wraith12 03:58, 3 March 2007 (UTC)Wraith12
Complain all you want -- if there are sources in the individual pages, repeat them here. Have you even read WP:BLP? It is not limited to biography articles but ALL ARTICLES and even TALK PAGES! Look at the List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people, look at the List of converts to Judaism, why is this list any different? Carlossuarez46 16:43, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mike Tyson a muslim convert

I found this New York Times articles while I was researching some details of this boxer: SPORTS PEOPLE: BOXING; Tyson's Conversion to Islam Denied

I can't find any official or well sourced reports that confirms his conversion - just second hand reports (like the BBC article linked here) and this denial. --Eqdoktor 09:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Found an AFP report of Tyson visiting a Mosque - Tyson returns to freedom at last. The NY Times report is out of date. --Eqdoktor 09:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
That is not a reliable source. It is a home page. Anyone can post anything on the internet, you know.--Sefringle 00:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
That page is a reprint from a 1995 Agence France-Presse (a reliable news source) news report. It does not appear to be altered or changed. Mike Tyson's conversion is not in doubt. I have since found numerous other sources wherein it is cited or mentioned that he is a Muslim. This interview for example where he talks a bit of religion:
Saraceno, Jon., Tyson: 'My whole life has been a waste', USAToday.com, 2005-06-02, Retrieved on 2007-03-11.
--Eqdoktor 06:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
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