Talk:List of Lebanese people

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This discussion is becoming heated; users are reminded to remain civil,
assume good faith, and avoid personal attacks while working towards consensus.

Personally, I think we shouldn't list too many politicians here – just the more prominent ones, leaving the rest to Politics of Lebanon and similar articles. What do others think? - Udzu 15:11, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Frank Zappa

Despite appearing on a number of websites, Frank Zappa is, I believe, a common case of misidentification. He himself says in [1] that his mother was French/Italian and his father was Sicilian-born. He also notes that his father was of Greek-Arab origin, but as far as I know this has never been properly clarified. While it may be that one or both of Zappa's paternal grandparents were Arabs (possibly Lebanese - though that's never stated), this feels unlikely. For one, Zappa is a very Italian/Sicilian surname. Also, a Greek-Arab combination two generations back sounds sufficiently unusual to merit further comment.

I think it's most likely that Zappa was refering to his long-term cultural heritage. Sicily was, of course, settled by both Greeks and Arabs. Either way, I don't think it's safe to list him. Juko 02:14, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Helen Thomas

I am moving Helen Thomas from underneath Politicians to Cultural Figures:Writers. --AStanhope 13:22, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bob Katter

I have reverted Juko's edit which removed Bob Katter. His ancestry is unquestionably Lebanese, not Afghan (unless his ancestors went from Afghanistan to Lebanon). His grandfather was a Lebanese immigrant, and his father worked to promote Lebanese-Australian ties. This and this are two sources among many that I could find.

Also, I think it is questionable whether Alam should have been removed. David Cannon 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There seems to be conflicting reports regarding Katter, though your second link seems pretty reliable-looking. A number of websites, however, mention a disparaging remark by Paul Keating about Katter's late father, supposedly in reference to their Afghan heritage. See for example here. Also, your first link contains at least one error – Paula Abdul's father is Syrian Jewish and her mother French-Canadian Jewish.
Regarding Alam, I'm happy to see him readded. My only worry had been that given the size (and disproportional contribution) of the Lebanese diaspora (there are 300,000 Lebanese in Australia alone), the list might become unbrowsable if we listed every local politician.
Finally, is there any reason why you deleted Steve Bracks?
Oops! Sorry, I didn't mean to delete Steve Bracks! I just reverted the page to the previous version without checking to ensure that nothing new was deleted. I do apologise. David Cannon 11:10, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Actually, my bad. I'd added Bracks without noticing he was already there (albeit in the wrong place alphabetically). Oops! Juko
Juko 09:39, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Charles Malik and Keanu Reeves

Charles Malik appears to have two entries, Keanu Reeves was born in Lebanon but has no Lebanese ancestry? Thanks. Tiller1 09:17, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted page move

I have reverted two page moves made by an anonymous editor without consultation, which created double redirects, and, more importantly, made this list inconsistent with the pages related to other countries in this project. If you want to move this page, please get consensus. David Cannon 21:32, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Neil Sedaka

Neil Sedaka's inclusion appears to be mistaken -- Ashkenazi-Jewish mother whose family came from East Europe, Sephardic-Jewish father whose family came from Istanbul. Am removing for now. AnotherBDA 16:51, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Yasmine Bleeth

Yasmine Bleeth's father is Jewish and her mother is a Pied-noir (ie. her mother is ethnic French but born in North Africa, in this case Algeria). Her own Wiki states this clearly and links it accordingly.

Being Jewish does not preclude one from being Lebanese. f(x)=ax2+bx+c 08:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lebanese diaspora

There should probably be a page called "Lebanese diaspora", where all the people who are not actually Lebanese should be listed at. Anyone up for creating it or should I? Mad Jack O'Lantern 04:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if "diaspora" would be the right term to use. In any case, I don't think people who are born in Lebanon but have no Lebanese citizenship or ancestry belong with everyone else on the list. At the very least, they should have a separate section. f(x)=ax2+bx+c 08:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Request for Comment: Notable Lebanese and assassinations

This is a dispute encompassing two issues. Specifically on whether "assassinated", "executed" or "nearly assassinated" individuals should be described as such in a list (e.g. [2]) and generally over the detail of descriptions added to individuals listed (eg, [3]). Also the extent to which indivduals with no Wiki articles (yet) and questioned notability should be listed (e.g [4]). These include, but are not limited to:

  • Catalina Prince, Model "Ford Supermodel of Lebanon 1996"
  • Waleed Hourani, composer, pianis
  • Meen, an alternative lebanese band founded by Fouad and Toni Yammine.
  • Elias Ghanem - Head of the Las Vegas Boxing Association
  • Elie Yahchouchi- former head basketball committe of the Sagesse club(3 times Asian Champion)
  • Richard Hibey, American attorney in Washington, DC, brother of Jim Hibey, son of Anthony "Ezhiyah" Hibey
  • Jim Hibey, American attorney in Washington, DC
  • Patrick Joseph "PJ" Hasham, a fictional character in the long running Australian drama series Blue Heelers was of Lebanese descent.
  • Chadillac - The 'G' out of Lala
  • Tarek Yamout - nail and yarn art
  • Paul Zgheib - Photographer
  • Nadia Tueni - poet
  • George Zahar - publisher & editor (Lebanese father)
  • Issa Makhlouf - poet
  • Mikhael Neame - writer
  • Maroun Abboud - writer
  • Nidal Achkar - poetess
  • Tarek Hijazi - Managing Editor of The Middle East's first and best selling western entertainment magazine - Teen World Magazine -

-- Rockpocket 21:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

  • Jaber: I am not going to say anything . I think I have said and done enough. What I did is make the article look more decent and less humiliating for my country. If you compare mine and his version, you can conclude which is better. He has made no effort to make it look better, he copied the list from other websites and did not bother to search for these names, some of which had other spellings. If you consider what I did as vandalism, then do not bother to block me. I am not going to contribute to Wikipedia anymore, as long as there are people like "Lcnj" who can do whatever they want without being accounted for their actions, which I considered as vandalizing the article. Do whatever you want to the article, I'm to busy and tired to fix it each time. People like Lcnj, or whatever his name is, drove me out of the country. I would be surprised if this person has any friends. Also, I happen to personally know three of six people you mentioned. Do not call me uninformed, as you do not know me. Jaber 13:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Lcnj Justification in support of his side of the dispute:
  1. As a friendly gesture towards dispute resolution and reaching consensus, I agree to remove all and only those notable persons listed above from Catalina Prince to Tarek Hijazi even though I believe that we are doing this Article injustice by the removal of the highly such notable and highly decortaed Lebanese writer as Maroun Abboud [5], and the world reknowned Lebanese Pianist Walid Hourani [6], [7], and I will personally remove them as soon as this dispute is resolved.
  2. The simple fact that Jaber was initially insisting on removing legendary, very well known, and notable Lebanese figures like the Mir Mjid Arslan, Elias Rahbani, Wadih El Safi, Zaki Nassif, Emile Edde, Joyce Gemayel whose status in Lebanon is almost that of Barbara Bush in the US with her former President husband and Minister Son, etc... etc.... tells ANY informed Lebanese that he is most likely not an informed Lebanese nor is he familiar with who is notable and who is not in Lebanon.
  3. As for the notable people I started adding the following sources; Mir Mjid Arslan [8], Elias Rahbani [9], Wadih El Safi [10], Zaki Nassif [11], Joyce Gemayel [12] and more that can be verified in the Article.
  4. As for the assassinations, I added the following verifiable good sources in support of my belief that all such assassinations took place; Dany Chamoun [13], Bachir Gemayel [14], Pierre Amine Gemayel [15], Rafik Hariri [16], Elias Murr [17], and more that can be verified in the Article.
  5. At one time, Jaber agreed to keep ALL the notable persons but insisted on removing the assassination references WITHOUT providing any sources that support his side of the dispute. Later, without consensus, he simply went ahead and removed notable people that he agreed to keep.
  6. One more thing, After I added Musa al-Sadr and Hassan Khaled, I made a point to reach out and let him know that I added them and offered to remove them should he disputed them. He specifically said that "he agreed to adding them" [18] then later attacked me [19].
  7. I have very little time to dedicate to Wikipedia, however, as part of this dispute, I will continue to try to provide good verifiable sources on assasinations to support my side of the dispute.
  8. I would have liked to see the dispute resolved as another dispute on the Article Lebanon was resolved the Wikipedia way. See Matn v/s Metn Lcnj 03:06, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
  • As neutral administrator attempting to mediate between editors in dispute, I offer no opinion. But will ensure the consensus of the community is upheld. Rockpocket 21:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Comments

  • Instead of providing reasoning for his side of the dispute ON THIS Article Discussion page along with "good" verifiable sources, Jaber, unrestrained, keeps engaging, without any accountability, in false baseless accusations, continued Personal attack and condescending remarks such as "People like Lcnj, or whatever his name is, drove me out of the country. I would be surprised if this person has any friends". This is not justificiation for his side of the dispute as I did above in good faith... this is not just "impoliteness", this is a flagrant continued Personal attack that remains unrestrained after an insicere apology... and he still "gets away with it". Lcnj 16:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation requests

As a matter of process, if one is querying something on the list - and that person already has an article about them - then please check the article itself for a reference before adding the request. If a reliable source is noted there, then add it to the list yourself. This stops us losing good content simply because the original contributor forgot to source.

If the information you are querying is repeated in the article, but is unsourced there also, then add the request to the article page. This is the place other editors are most likely to find and add the request. If the information is not in the article, then by all means add the citation request to the list entry. This obviously does not refer to individuals without articles (red links). In these cases, reliable sources should be provided to indicate both notability and Lebanese descent. Consider WP:LISTV:

For purposes of list inclusion, the most reliable source is the long-standing consensus of editors on the content article of the thing listed; the failure of a content article to support list inclusion criteria should be treated as prima facie evidence against its inclusion in the list. Transient or widely disputed characterizations on a content article should be treated with suspicion by list editors. List editors should also consider whether a characterization within a content article, even if long-standing, is presented as consensus opinion or as the position of a specific named external source; in the latter case, the citation to an external source is only as good as the external source is.

Thanks. Rockpocket 22:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WARNING about the Removal of good verifiable sources

A good Editor, be it retired, blocked, unblocked or shadowing under a new name must remain civil and not, single handedly, remove another Editor's good verifiable source without courteous discussion on the Article's discussion page. This is considered impolite to say the least. Vive la France, Vive Le Liban, Vive Tout Le Monde, Vivent les Vacances!... Lcnj 17:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serious Content Cleansing and Nonsense Deletion [with all due respect to Editors and the utmost objectivity]

EDITORS -

Some of my changes have been reverted by one editor earlier today and I have reason to believe that the version I presented is much closer to what we would like to see as a more complete version: concise, nonsense-free and based on verifiable content.

In order to find a consensus on what content should be added, modified or removed, I will expose the changes I have made and will be open to discuss each of them point by point. But before I go on with my debate, I would like to remind our dear editors that this is a page (by definition) for prominent Lebanese people; further more, in order to avoid a never-ending list of personalities and instead of delving into a Byzantine debate of who should make it to the list or not (as was the case with user:Lcnj and User:Jaber), I prefer we all start from a common stand point, which is the following: This is a page of prominent people who marked Lebanon 's history and the world's, forever!

In order to make this a homogeneous list as much as possible, we have to approve that while a Lebanese Noble Prize laureate makes it to the list, having influenced humanity, less important people, should simply not (cf. the "Others" section most flagrantly!).

Now let me start by stating my changes and making a small comment to underline their rational.

  • The Legendary Historical Figures section should include only (a) historical figures (b) who played legendary roles either in the history of Lebanon or the world's and (c) they should all be of a very similar and close importance to remain in the same height of achievements. That is why I suggest the following:
    • Additions: (note how some of the additions are elaborated definitions of the existing figures)
    • Removals:
      • Tanios Bou-Nader Khneisser figure from Dhour El Shuwayr - The father of the Sword and Shield Folkloric Dance "Saif w' Ters"  : This addition has no references to support its viability. This name is not taught in Lebanese history books (Official curriculum) and is not known in the Lebanese traditions (like Tanios Shahine, leader of 1860 rebellion, for instance). The mentioned figure can be a famous personality in his home town of Dhour El Shuwayr, but is not a figure worth mentioning (with all due respect if the info is true) in a global article about Lebanon, especially with no references to support his achievement. Well, at least not in this top section, but maybe in the less striking "Others" section. The "Seif w Ters", a once traditional dance in Lebanonc is fading out of the Lebanese customs, at a much faster pace than the "Dabke" dance (whose inventor is not cited in this article for example)
      • Nami Jafet (Ni’mah Shadid Yafith), 1860-1923 - After whom the Jafet Library in AUB was named, and whose life size statue decorates the Sahat in Dhour El Shuwayr : Another figure that is unknown by the general Lebanese public and that had little influence on Lebanese society as a whole. He may be a very successful man and a tribute to his home-town Shuwayr, but the likes of this bright figure in Lebanon abound in every village, to the point that adding such a name would lead to adding not less than 60% of Lebanese Immigrants since 1800. So to make long short, let us keep this website focused on Lebanese famous people, known by all Lebanese alike, and not turn this into a tribute page for a village (Shuwayr, in the the two above cases so far)

  • In the Lebanese politicians section, I strongly suggest this one removal:
    • Removal:
      • Joyce Gemayel - Wife of Amin Gemayel and ... : The former first lady has not played enough of a major role in Lebanese politics and is only known as a mere social figure by those who are aware of the Gemayel family tree... Should we start adding first ladies to the list, might as well start by Mrs Mona Hrawi, wife of the former president of the republic, being one of the most influential first ladies in Lebanese history, even by the voice of her husband's opponents and enemies. In all cases, Mrs Gemayel remains the only first lady mentioned in this section, despite not having participated enormously to Lebanese politics nor made a influence worth of pushing her on this list of politicians.



  • In the on Politicians of Lebanese Descent, I suggest the following modifications:
  • On the Activists section:
    • Addition:
    • Removal:
      • Giorgio-Guy Tarraf - (1988 - ) UNESCO Youth Ambassador for the Culture of Peace. Not only is this person non existing on Google search results (except via this article that has hosted him for some time now), but having no references for this piece of information makes its viability look really and easily disputed. Should be deleted for this entry does not qualify as a celebrity, specially not next to the other figures who have achievements that weigh on Lebanon and the world.

  • In the section Military figures:
    • Additions:
    • Removal: (None)

  • In the Section on Film, Theatre, Television, and Radio Personalities:
    • Additions:
      • Joseph Barbera & William Hanna, Hanna-Barbera (Lebanese pronunciation: Hannah & Berbere) Creators of the Tom and Jerry, The Flintstones, The Jetsons, Scooby-Doo, Jonny Quest, Space Ghost, Yogi Bear Creators of the Tom and Jerry, The Flintstones, The Jetsons, Scooby-Doo, Jonny Quest, Space Ghost, Yogi Bear and many other world reknown cartoons that have pinned us to our couches on Saturday mornings--and other times of other days) [7] (entry did not exist!)
      • Elie Samaha - chairman/CEO of Franchise Pictures [8] (entry did not exist!)
      • Catalina Prince, "Ford Supermodel of Lebanon 1996" ; deceased (updated entry data, although this is not considered as a figure that really influenced the Lebanese society or its Film, TV, and theater industry! I doubt this entry should even go on this list)
      • Kathy Najimy, born in lebanon, actress [citation needed] (I dispute the viability of this information and so ask the editor who brought us this information to bring us a reference with a confirmation...)
      • Arsinée Khanjian, actress (Lebanese-born, Armenian ethnicity) (moved this entry a bit lower on the list, for she is less known than many on this list.. by far, if I may add)
    • Removal:
      • Mahmoud Baghdadi, who fought Muhammed Ali and was crippled [citation needed] (this entry looks like nonsense and its credibility is highly disputed) - I recommend immediate deletion of this entry.



  • In the Lebanese Musicians section:
    • Addition:
      • Fairouz, born Nouhad Haddad, singer, Lebanese folk diva (entry content updated)
  • In the section Musicians of Lebanese Descent:
      • K-Maro, (Cyril Kamar by birth) is a young Lebanese Canadian born rapper, born in Lebanon in 1980. (edited content of the entry, and information is credible and verifiable)
      • Massari, Lebanese pop and hip-hop singer who grew up in Canada [9] (edited and elaborated the data: now credible and verifiable)
      • Shakira, born to a Colombian mother of Catalan descent and an American-born father of Lebanese Catholic descent. Shakira, which means "grateful" in Arabic (شاكرة), is named after her paternal grandmother (edited and elaborated the data: now credible and verifiable)
      • Gabriel Yared, international Lebanese composer, Academy Award winner for Anthony Minghella's The English Patient (1996) and has been nominated for two others (Cold Mountain (2003) and The Talented Mr. Ripley (1999)). He also composes ballets for Carolyn Carlson and Roland Petit. (update this important entry's info!)
    • Removal:
      • Nawal Zoughbi, pop singer  : Nawal Al Zoghbi has her own page on Wikipedia and has established herself (like so many other Lebanese pop singers in the nineties) as one of the most renown Pop singer. In any case, she is not to be listed in this section reserved for world renown musicians of Lebanese descent (meaning of Lebanese roots, or born in Lebanon but lived and succeeded elsewhere) In the case of Al Zoghbi, she is mentioned in a different section and should ergo be deleted from this section, no doubt about that.



  • In the section Scientists:
    • Additions:
      • Hassan Kamel Al-Sabbah - seen as being the father of the solar cell. Worked for a long time for GE where where he was engaged in mathematical and experimental research, principally on rectifiers and inverters, receiving over 70 United States and foreign patents covering his work. His articles were published in the Genenral Electric Review. He was also on the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers fellowship grade (entry content updated and elaborated to suit this famous Lebanese inventor)
      • Sir Michael Atiyah - (Lebanese British father) - mathematician, Fields Medal (1966), Abel Prize (2004) (updated content of this entry)
      • Charles Elachi - (from Lebanese family El-Achi) is the director of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and vice president of the California Institute of Technology (Corrected content of this entry)
      • George Harik - former Director of Googlettes (department of Google Inc). His team was responsible for the product management and strategy efforts surrounding many starting Google initiatives including Gmail, Google Talk, Google Video, Picasa, Orkut, Google Groups and Google Mobile. Harik was also the co-developer of the technology behind AdSense, the first engineering manager of the Google Search Appliance, and the co-author of the original product plan for the AdWords Online system.
    • Removals:
      • Abdulrahim N. Chafi - chemist and civil/environmental engineer; president of Dar Science and Engineering (This person is not a Lebanese famous figure, and this entry seems like parasite content since it cannot be supported by viable evidence)
      • Alain Chikhani - plastic surgeon (Johns Hopkins Hospital, USA) (parasite content and has no viable sources - figure not famous amongst the Lebanese)



  • In the section for Lebanese Entrepreneurs:
    • Additions:
      • Carlos Ghosn - (also known as Carlos Gaune, from the Lebanese family "Ghosn"), Lebanese Brazilian-born CEO and President of Renault and Nissan Motor. Nicknamed the "Cost Cutter", he is largely credited with turning Nissan around, and voted Man of the Year 2003 by Fortune magazine's Asian edition. (updated entry contact to make it more suitable for this internationally renowned businessman)
      • Nicolas Hayek The 'father of Swatch' and creator of the Smart car concept (updated the entry info)
      • Al-Waleed bin Talal - Lebanese mother, grandson of Prime Minister Riad El Solh, is the richest Arab and one of the richest (8th, according to Forbes) men in the world ; head of Kingdom Holdings. Known as The Warren Buffet of the East (Updated the entry info)



  • In the section "Others":
    • Additions:
      • Nami Jafet (Ni’mah Shadid Yafith), 1860-1923 - After whom the Jafet Library in AUB was named, and whose life size statue decorates the Sahat in Dhour El Shuwayr (As mentioned above, this personality of no national fame must be kept a bit only if added in a very low profile way in this section for instance)
      • Tanios Bou-Nader Khneisser figure from Dhour El Shuwayr - The father of the Sword and Shield Folkloric Dance "Saif w' Ters" (same goes for this entry as the previous one... in both cases, the viability of these 2 bits of information can be quite suspicious if not referenced by a viable source)
    • Removals: (Immediately REMOVE the following entries!!! They destroy the serious image of this page!)
      • Fadi Farroukh, Lebanese superhero known as "The Mask". Student of Bruce Lee, he is a master in Jeet Kune Do. (Indisputably nonsense content!)
      • Souheil Badawi, another Lebanese superhero, known as "el-CHAHEM", partner of "The Mask" in fighting crimes. (Indisputably nonsense content!)
      • Simonus Beyikhus, Lebanese female supervillain who tries to dominate the world by telling very very bad jokes and laughing hilariously on them. Archenemy of "The Mask", she used to be his friend before stabbing him in the back and kicking him out of her house.(Indisputably nonsense content!)
      • Kamal Tarabine The yougnest of the three superhero known by"the sex machine" previously a member of the 3rd reich,and because The MaSk and el_chahem are old like my uncle he is now taking responsability of saving achrafieh and it suburbs (Indisputably nonsense content!)


Please read the above suggestions very carefully as they touch many sections on this article and suggest very serious and highly interesting modifications/changes (be it additions/modifications or deletions). Please give opinions to all the aforementioned points, stating why you disagree to these changes.

Thank you for your time and attention.
Jixavius 23:44, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Umm...I am very confused about Hanna and Barbera being included. Except for 2 articles that appeared to be linked and state that Barbera is of Lebanese descent (and numerous wikipedia copies), other places list him as being Sicilian (including his own Wikipedia page!). Where did this information come from? I'm not necessarily saying it isn't true, but it seems like it might not be.

130.126.33.111 21:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)Alisa

Welcome back, Jaber...

First please refrain from using words like "nonesense". This is your 2nd personal attack and I will report all 3 personal attacks if you ever attack me again.

However, I thank you for adhereing to this friendly dispute. As long as you do not go back to your old antics and violate Wikipedia rules, I will work with you on your debating and resolving your proposed edits that I disputed for the most part. I also disagree with most of your delitions because notability is not detremined by you and people you may not personally know can be notable. Many people including yourself most likely do not know who "Alen MacLeod Cormek" is, but he is still very notable and should be listed in Wikipedia. I looked at your additions, and I will respond to them in my dispute. You have given me a long list. Please do not make changes until I have had the time to absorb all this and enter my dispute and then either agree or reach consensus with other editors. Lcnj 01:55, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I see clearly that we are not going to agree on everything here, so I will propose a middle of the road consensus in an effort to resolve this dispute without consuming much of our much needed time to contribute to the main Lebanon article. I have removed some and added some of your proposed additions in a good faith effort. Lcnj 02:18, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


Dear Lcnj,
Great job ( I just finished checking it out). I am glad you agreed with most of my suggestions. I have added some notes here and there to make this look as objective and neutral as possible so it becomes plausible to the biggest public possible.. I think you will agree with my notes/additions.
And for the last time, please stop calling me Jaber. I have so far thought you are an intelligent individual. Jumping to conclusions will not help keep that image of you in my mind. FYI: Jixavius has been my nick name for many many years now. If you had googled[10] it, you would have guessed Jaber (your old arch-ennemy it seems :-) and I are 2 very different people ;o)
And last but not least, we don't know each other, so please never take anything I say to be personal. The word nonsense is a Wikipedia term (nonsense). I am trying my best to be constructive. Check it out before you start growing grudges and negative energy in your heart. Keep the positive mindset and we will all be happy.
Thank you for efforts and have a good one!
J

[edit] The Basbous family ?

I think we should add an entry about the Basbous family? (the renown sculptors)
anybody up to it? or shall I do it myself?
Thanks. J
Jixavius 12:12, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notability

I've heard there is a content dispute on this page. I don't quite know what's going on, but it might help to change the article scope from famous people to "notable" people, as WP:NOTABILITY is a well worn guideline around here. -- Kendrick7talk 17:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I find your remark quite interesting Kendrick (Thank you)... Anybody against that change?
Jixaviustalk 17:44, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edmond Safra

His family appears to be from Aleppo, Syria. His father did set up shop in Beruit, but I can't find a WP:RS tying Edmond to Lebanon. -- Kendrick7talk 20:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Kendrick, I have found the following sources that all converge as to the life story of the prominent private banker. Born in Lebanon (Aley'), he founded a Lebanese subsidiary of the Safra Bros Bank under his own name in Beirut, and only left Lebanon circa 1948, when the state of Israel was declared and the Jews started to feel uncomfortable in the Arab world, and established their business in Sao Paolo back then...
I found these sources that could support these facts: [20], [21], [22] and [23].
-- Jixaviustalk 2:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Good work, I ref'd it up. -- Kendrick7talk 01:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Karl Wolf is not K-Maro :

EDITORS-

In the section Musicians of Lebanese Descent, I had already edited an entry for K-Maro[[24]] (see artist's bio) marking that he is a Canadian Lebanese born musician (providing a reference). Now I see another editor has evoked another Candian Musician born and raised in Lebanon, Karl Wolf [Ref #19:[25]], while trying to ref K-Maro. Nice discorvery! :o)
Let me point out that both musicians are NOT French; and of course, both of them should be included in the list. Jixavius 18:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Good catch. Google's cache of the "December music" page was still the 2005 article for K-Maro, not the 2006 for Karl Wolf, which is was I looked at and referenced just assuming the K. initialism meant they were the same person. -- Kendrick7talk 20:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Barberra

For edification of anon user above, Barbera was born in New York to Lebanese parents -- Kendrick7talk 13:49, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

And who exactly said otherwise? :) -- Jixavius 10:25, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Someone seemed to have confused a report of him being born in little italy with his being Sicilian. Go figure. -- Kendrick7talk 19:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Joyce Gemayel is not that notable to be listed; She is even hardly a Politician :

Editors-

Worldedixor added a ref to Joyce Gemayel which I would not really qualify as a "reliable reference" (a link to a Google search for the lady's name...). Let me shed some light on out why I keep disputing the existence of the Joyce Gemayel entry in the Politicians section (notably with a previous user, Lcnj, who has apparently changed his/her identity now). As a matter of fact, the arguments are simple:

  • Firstly: First ladies do not count as Political figures (see First Lady), per se (merely social figuers, maybe, depending on the pertinence of their role and social involvement during their husband's mandate). Let me remind you that on that level, Mrs. Gemayel had her hands a bit tied during her husband's mandate because back then, Lebanon was still drawned in the bloody Civil War and there was nothing much she could do anyway, besides moral support maybe;
  • Secondly: I don't think we should take Google as a viable reference of notability when we find 15'000 search results for any full name search. Let me elaborate on this one: in fact, as you may or may not know, shoud you Google a name like "Joyce Saliba" (I am using a random combination of first and last name, inspired by Mrs. Gemayel first name and Mr. George Saliba's last name), the super-powerful search engine will look up all the occurences of (Joyce Saliba), (Saliba Joyce), (Joyce) and (Saliba). Actually, I looked Joyce Saliba and found some 200K matches, you think she should be added to? To add more complexity to the results, we should consider that, and it is quite normal, that the occurences of a first name like (Joyce) is more likely to be found (especially being a latin name used in many Western countries) than all the results of "Joyce Gemayel" put together. Not to mention that a name like (Gemayel), being a recurrent family name in Lebanese politics articles, will surely give an extra boost to the search results numbers;
  • Thirdly: (the best part yet) and if you still insist on using Google as a reference to your scaling, try to be more specific. Look up "Joyce Gemayel"—with quotations that is—, and to be fair also, add to the number of matches you find the number of results when Googling "Gemayel Joyce". Don't be amzed as your thousands fall down to just some hundreds.

In conclusion, not only will I remove the (Google) reference to Mrs. Gemayel's entry, I am going to remove the entire entry for now. We could then discuss, if you think it is still worth the time, the "notability" of the first lady and whether she should be included or not, under a Social Figures section later on. And I sure don't want to open up that door, because many Lebanese first ladies (or wives of other prominent politicians) have indeed had more impact on the social Lebanese life than Mrs. Gemayel.

Thank you —Jixavius 10:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Without having an opinion on the notability Mrs. Gemayel, I would just like to note that a raw google search for a name is never an acceptable reliable source. See WP:GOOGLE for why. Rockpocket 18:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
<<comment removed per Wikipedia's privacy policy, do not reveal personal information on other editors>> Rockpocket 06:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello :-) and yes, I guess the IP above is one of my IPs at work. Sorry for the mishap dear editors. I must have been so eager to edit some stuff (and I clearly commented why I did what I did) and and forgot to login before I started the editing. And contrarily to what some might accuse me of, I am not afraid to say what's on my mind :-) I stay cool like any editor is supposed to be when debating earthly issues like addition of a tiny datum in an article and don't get all emotional and accusative/paranoid. So please, all of you out there, don't worry, I don't use any suckpuppets to hide my comments as I am as clear and honest as far as the limits of politness permit. Excuse our colleague Lcnj who has just learned how to put search engines to good (or bad) use and find relevant information (or so he thinks) to help him in his ... schemes. He doesn't mean to intimidate nor condescend to me in anyway. And I am sure in his next post on this page, he will talk of issues that are more relevant to the article only. Right? :-) --Jixavius @ 22:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Jixavius: You are violating Personal attack. This is your first warning to cease and desist. Worldedixor 22:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
And so are you my dear contributor. And don't talk to me about personal attacks. We both know what you did ;-) --Jixavius @ 22:58, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
WHAT DID I DO, JERK? Just go edit... and LEAVE ME ALONE... Stop talking to me and about me... Worldedixor 23:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Worldedixor/Lcnj: You are violating Personal attack. This is your "first" warning to cease and desist :-) --Jixavius @ 23:23, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Looking, if we just use the notability criteria at WP:N this shouldn't be a problem; in fact, just create a stub article for Joyce Gemayel and WP:AFD it. If it survives, she's notable and can be included here. If not, she's not. Simple as that. -- Kendrick7talk 23:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Kendrick7: An Admin already said he was satisfied with the refrences I provided for Gemayel's notability. Can we stop dissecting my edits and encourage Jixavius fabrications and harassment?? Worldedixor 23:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I know you are on tilt, but this is a perfectly fine solution which cuts to the chase. I intend to go thru the article and clean out people not notable enough for an article themselves at some point anyway. -- Kendrick7talk 23:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Kendrick: You are welcome to edit as you please... but your Personal attack is just that. You are inly feeding into harassement. Worldedixor 23:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Personal attack? Hmmm... let me word that another way then: I sympathize with your frustration. Better? -- Kendrick7talk 23:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
What frustration? I have not attacked you so BACK OFF!... By your "picking in me", you are just feeding into the harassement of that guy who wants nothing more that for you to gang up on me... Worldedixor 23:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I have never in my life seen so much negative energy!! Geeez!! Kendrick, I support you in doing whatever you suggested. I am a new editor here and don't know what the optimal way to cut the chase in solving such pending issues is. So I think you know best... Cheers! --Jixavius @ 23:37, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I am do busy to do anything here at the present time. I have added Template:chill to the top of this discussion. -- Kendrick7talk 23:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Further, lets all take tea and remember there is no angry mastodons around here. If anyone believes strongly an individual should be listed, then go and create a one line WP:STUB on that person. If the article isn't deleted, then the person is clearly notable and can be listed without argument. If they are deleted, they are clearly not notable. Either way, the problem gets resolved. Rockpocket 06:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Since there appears to be some revert-warring going on, I took the liberty of creating a Joyce Gemayel stub myself. I know nothing about Mrs Gemayel, and care even less whether she is notable or not. However, I'm tired of the disputes about notability at on a list. If anyone could improve the stub, please do so. Or is she isn't deemed notable enough in your opinion, please list at WP:AfD and explain why, then we can let the community decide. Could we try and use this process in future, instead of fighting over red links here, please? Rockpocket 10:25, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../l/i/s/Talk%7EList_of_Lebanese_people_337b.html"