Talk:List of Jews from Russia, Ukraine and Belarus

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[edit] Andrei Makarevich

The source presented is the only reliable source that I could find when searching for Makarevich that connects him with something Jewish. Given that it is publically known his band have made anti-semitic comments in the past, its gonna take some more direct evidence than a page that lists him as an entertainer at a Jewish event. "Leading Russian actors and musicians performed free-of-charge." - It doesn't say the event is only inclusive of Russian-Jewish entertainers, and goes on to mention how many people went to the event. 141.213.212.15 18:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The source says "This year, preparations for the Rosh ha-Shana involved people from all walks of the Moscow Jewish community. The capital’s foremost restaurants and caterers provided food and beverages for the reception, evidently trying to impress the guests with the quality of their specialties. Taking part in the entertainment program, called “Together for 200 Years,” were Iosif Kobzon, Mikhail Zhvanetsky, Maxim Dunaevsky and Andrei Makarevich" - in other words, these entertainers are from the Moscow Jewish community. If indeed members of his band (but not him?) have made anti-semitic comments, it is not unknown for Jews to make anti-semitic comments.--Runcorn 19:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

"Leading Russian actors and musicians performed free-of-charge." It doesn't say they were only Russian-Jewish. I'm not suggesting his anti-semitic comments conflict with his possible Jewishness, just that given this fact, a source as indirect as the one above is not appropriate. If Andrei is Jewish, I don't see why that would have to be the only source that even hints at it. Just leave the ^{[citation needed]} on so maybe some Russian speakers will find a more direct source. Meanwhile I'm emailing a fan page of the band and asking if they can direct me to some information and save trouble. 141.213.212.15 06:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lenin

I notice that the references to Vladimir Lenin and his Jewish ancestry were removed (again). Lenin had Jewish ancestry, and was sourced as such on this page (while masses of the other unsourced names are allowed to remain?); despite the reliable source, his name was still removed from the article (removed about 4-5 times at last count). The following quotes from Yuri Slezkine's book The Jewish Century (Princeton, 2004: ISBN 0691127603) demonstrate the importance/relevance of Lenin's Jewish ancestry during the Soviet era and should put an end to these baseless and censorious reversions:

But of course the most sensitive "nationality" [ethnicity] of all was Lenin's. In 1924, Lenin's sister Anna discovered that their maternal grandfather, Aleksandr Dmitrievich Blank, had been born Srul (Israel), the son of Moshko Itskovich Blank, in the shtetl Starokonstantinov [Old Konstantinov] in Volynia [Volhynia, now Ukraine]. When Kamenev found out, he said, "I've always though so," to which Bukharin allegedly replied: "Who cares what you think? The question is, what are we going to do?" What "they," or rather, the Party through the Lenin Institute, did was proclaim this fact "inappropriate for publication" and decree that it be "kept secret." In 1932 and again in 1934, Anna Ilinichna [Lenin's sister] begged Stalin to reconsider, claiming that her discovery was, on the one hand, an important scientific confirmation of the "exceptional ability of the Semitic tribe" and "the extraordinarily beneficial influence of its blood on the offspring of mixed marriages"; and, on the other, a potent weapon against anti-Semitism "owing to the prestige and love that [Vladimir] Ilich [Lenin] enjoys among the masses." Lenin's own Jewishness, she argued, was the best proof of the accuracy of his view that the Jewish nation possessed a peculiar " 'tenacity' in struggle" and a highly revolutionary disposition. "Generally speaking," she concluded, "I do not understand what reasons we, as Communists, may have for concealing this fact. Logically, this does not follow from the recognition of the full equality of all nationalities." Stalin's response was an order to "keep absolutely quiet." Anna Ilinichna did. The enemies of the regime were deprived of additional anti-Semitic ammunition. (pgs. 245-246)

All advanced Jews supported assimilation, according to Lenin, but it is also true that many of the "great leaders of democracy and socialism" came from "the best representatives of the Jewish world." Lenin himself did [have Jewish ancestry], through his maternal grandfather, although he probably did not know it. When his sister, Anna, found out, she wrote to Stalin that she was not surprised, and "this fact" was "another proof of the exceptional ability of the Semitic tribe," and that Lenin had always contrasted "what he called its 'tenacity' in struggle with the more sluggish and lackadaisical Russian character." (pg. 163)

And in 1965, all archival documents relating to Lenin's Jewish grandfather were ordered "removed without leaving any copies." (pg. 338)

--WassermannNYC 09:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Nobody is denying that Lenin had some Jewish ancestry. However, the general practice on these lists is only to include people who either are Jewish, have a Jewish parent or have been described as Jewish. Thus Jack Straw is not on the List of British Jewish politicians and Olivia Newton-John is not on the List of British Jewish entertainers.--20.138.246.89 10:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Interesting you write that, as you have been reverting to include, on List of Iberian Jews and List of Sephardic Jews, the allegedly distantly converso Columbus, who, if this fringe theory holds any water, was supposedly one-fourth converso via João Gonçalves Zarco. Mehmeda 03:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes User:20.138.246.89, what about those edits? You would be displaying monstrous hypocrisy (and POV) if you've been making these edits that User:Mehmeda mentions (as you indeed have), and then turning around not allowing this one to proceed. --WassermannNYC 06:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Wrong answer. Lenin was at least 25% Jewish (1 Jewish grandparent: possibly more) and thus is 'Jewish enough' to belong on this list. Lenin was, as you can read for yourself, apparently 'Jewish enough' for the government of the USSR to try and hide the fact that he had significant Jewish ancestry (QUOTE: "...all archival documents relating to Lenin's Jewish grandfather were ordered 'removed without leaving any copies' "). This fact alone (that the Soviet government tried to cover-up his Jewishness) makes him notable enough as a Jew (and 'Jewish enough' to be on this list). You also write that: "[they must] have been described as Jewish" -- well, Lenin's sister Anna (as you can read) tried to have Lenin 'described as Jewish,' (i.e. she wanted to reveal the fact that Lenin had Jewish ancestry to the public), yet this 'request' was refused by the higher-ups in the Soviet apparatus multiple times as these paragraphs lay out. You also write that "[they must] have a Jewish parent," yet you neglect to mention the fact that his mother was directly descended from a 'full Jew' (please READ: "...their maternal grandfather, Aleksandr Dmitrievich Blank, had been born Srul (Israel), the son of Moshko Itskovich Blank"). Also, most if not all of the Lists of Jews here on Wikipedia are full of half-Jews, quarter-Jews, etc., so to leave Lenin out because he isn't 'Jewish enough' (as you claim) when all of the other lists clearly have individuals listed that are 'less Jewish' than Lenin is pure censorship. Are paragraphs of reliable sources not enough for you, or do you like to use obscure quasi-Jewish British figures (people that are 1/8 Jewish: whatever) to try and censor valid and relevant information? --WassermannNYC 13:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

"Jewish enough" means nothing. He was not Jewish according to Jewish law or tradition (which would require at least a Jewish mother, not a Jewish maternal grandfather), nor are there any reliable sources that describe him as Jewish. Remove the junk from the other Jewish lists, don't add more here. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Jayjg: is a book written by a professor at Berkeley and published by Princeton Univ. Press (The Jewish Century) not a "reliable source" in your eyes? You people seem to think that ALL information is already to be found on the Internet, when that is clearly not the case. Also, there are hundreds if not thousands of people added to the Lists of Jews here on Wikipedia that are 'allowed' to be on these lists even though there were/are as Jewish as Lenin was. Also, if I try to add Jews to ANY list (or even remove them), the additions (or even the entire lists: see List of Jewish American businesspeople) end up gettting wiped out by editors with agendas. --WassermannNYC 06:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Your source doesn't claim he was a Jew, it claims he had Jewish ancestry. There is a significant difference. Please try not to turn Wikipedia into a forum for promoting racist "One drop rule" views. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Please don't accuse me of racism Jayjg (because that is slander), especially when people here could easily accuse you of rampant personal POV (philo-Semitism) in regards to MANY/MOST of your 'edits' (actually, you don't really 'edit' anything, you just delete the contributions of others) here on Wikipedia and would have plently of evidence to back up that fact. But I'd like to know, as it regards Lenin: is being 25% Jewish considered "one-drop" in your eyes? Again, I'd also like to direct you to the fact that nearly ALL of the Lists of Jews here on Wikipedia included people that are/were less Jewish than Lenin was. It is hypocritical to include people who are/were less Jewish than Lenin was on those lists while keeping people who were at least 25% Jewish off of this one. --WassermannNYC 07:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I haven't accused you of antisemitism, I've pointed out that Wikipedia does not go by the "one drop rule", but rather by WP:ATT, and that your sources do not even claim he was a Jew. As for ALL lists of Jews, feel free to delete any that aren't properly sourced. I'm going to start cleaning up this one, starting from the top down. That means none of this "Jewish ancestry", "part Jewish", "Jewish grandfather", "Jewish father", etc. nonsense. Either a reliable source identifies the person as a Jew, or he/she goes. I'll give the first section a week. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Where are there people who are less than 25% Jewish on these lists?--20.138.246.89 10:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

His maternal grandfather wasn't even Jewish. The Jewish one was his great-grandfather Moshe Blank, who tried to assimilate his entire family. His son Srul had assimilated and took a new name as well. Why, Wassermann, do you not include Lenin on a List of Swedes and Germans and Kalmyks then? He was, after all, one-fourth Kalmyk and one-eighth German and Swedish? Mehmeda 03:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead and add Lenin to the lists of Swedes, Germans, and Kalmyks -- no one is stopping you. One thing stopping you though might be the fact that not all of those lists exist. --WassermannNYC 06:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

There's not a list of Kalmyks but there is a Kalmyks article and probably a category. Why are you so set on adding him to the Russian Jewish list and not those? By the way, this is hardly censorship since its mentioned right in the Vladimir Lenin biography that he had a Jewish ancestor. Mehmeda 21:14, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Category:Former Jews

I'm quite sure that the new category, Category:Former Jews, could apply to MANY of the people on this list, especially in regards to the (ethnic) Jews during the Soviet era. The Soviet govt. officially espoused/encouraged atheism (per pure Communist doctrine), and thus any person seeking to rise high in the party would probably have been an admitted atheist/agnostic and would probably have totally repudiated any and all forms of religion. Thus, I believe that many of the (ethnic) Jews on this list (esp. people whose family possibly practiced Judaism when they were young) would fit nicely in Category:Former Jews. If anyone has the time and an interest in this subject, please help me to build up this category. --WassermannNYC 02:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)