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This article was nominated for deletion on October 8, 2005. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

— JIP | Talk 09:21, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

This article was nominated for deletion on December 26, 2005. The result of the discussion was no consensus. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

Contents 1 from LazarKr to Rachel Brown 2 from LazarKr to Rachel Brown 2.1 Concerning necessity of this list 2.2 Pruning 2.3 Possible Compromise 2.4 Baron 2.5 Encyclopaedia Judaica list 2.6 Link to holocaust denial site 2.7 This Page Needs MAJOR Pruning

[edit] from LazarKr to Rachel Brown

• What do you think about creation of List of Jewish Philosophers and Historians instead of category of Philosophers in List of Jewish Scientists and Philosophers and List of Jewish historians ?
• LazarKr 16:41, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't lump philosophers and historians in one list. I'd be happy to see a list of Jewish philosophers, though no doubt others would not. - RachelBrown 18:51, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] from LazarKr to Rachel Brown

• I agree with you. But may be my suggestion whould be compromise that will rise less objections?. At present, List of Historians is not well located, List of Scientists and Philosophers is too large and Grouping Scientists and Philosophers is not perfect solution either.
• LazarKr 07:13, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean, List of Historians is not well located? We need to do something about the List of Scientists and Philosophers, but until modern times scientists and philosophers had much in common. I'd sooner combine historians with anthropologists and sociologists. - RachelBrown 22:14, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

• I would prefer to get access to List of historians directly after entering to List of Jews.
• LazarKr 08:47, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Concerning necessity of this list

Can this list maybe be pruned to include historians that have published work that has to do with Judaism? It seems the best way to go -- for I don't see why a Jewish historian of Rome should be included in this list when he can just be included in his own country's list. Antidote 22:45, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, what's the harm of having all the Jewish ones gathered together (unless you're totally opposed to the principle of lists of Jews)? Secondly, there might be (I'm not saying there is) some pattern that emerges when we compare Jewish historians across countries with each other or with other historians. If we don't assemble the raw material to investigate, we'll never know! - RachelBrown 14:43, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

What's the point of having all the "Jewish ones" gathered together, and what definition will you use? Also, what kind of "pattern" might emerge? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:05, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

How on earth can anyone know what patterns will emerge till they've looked into it? Exploratory statistical analysis wouldn't get very far if you couldn't gather data until you know exactly what conclusions you're going to come to! - Newport 12:59, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pruning

I suggest this list be pruned to only include Jewish historians who have dabbled in Jewish religious, social, or political history - otherwise it's just more listcruft. This type of pruning has been conducted on similar pages beforehand (and successfully) - including List of Catholic authors most notably. Antidote 04:31, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. Anyone who removes Benjamin of Tudela from the list clearly does not know what they are doing. Until we get some consensus I'm forced to revert. -- JJay 05:09, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Please read what the criteria was and then look at your comment again. We're not adding historians who Jews "felt good about" we're adding historian who actually conducted Jewish history. Benjamin of Tudela was a hard choice (he did do WORK with Jews but is he a Jewish historian really?) - but can only be added seminally. I'm not preventing you from adding Tudela, do so if you think he's appropriate. But stop digging for reasons to go on a revert war with me. Thanks 72.144.183.135 21:46, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Please justify your removals. I see no criteria that allow you to make these blanket cuts. If you oppose inclusion, please give grounds and seek consensus. I would also submit that nearly every historian on this list has adressed the Jewish condition. If you had done any research prior to arbitrarily removing names, you might agree with me. Again I'm forced to revert your edits. -- JJay 22:29, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

If you knew at all who any of these people were you'd see that they all have specialization in their historical research -- a historian of art, ancient Greece, or the military who happens to be Jewish has no basis on this list - they can easily go into a category by ethnicity if you wish. If you feel that there should be more people included in this list however then add them. It's a simple edit - much simpler than your continuous reverts. Antidote 01:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Look you are obviously not familiar with the historians on this list or their work. I would strongly suggest you do some research before you make wild claims or removals. Your removal of Marx, for example, was unjustified. This is true of nearly all the historians you repeatedly try to remove. I ask again that you cite specific reasons to remove specific historians. -- JJay 02:48, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

It's a novel approach. Should we exclude Jewish scientists - even if avowedly practising Jews - who do not mention Judaism in their scientific work? - Newport 08:34, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

If made into a separate list like this - then yes. Oh, and it's not novel at all: List of Roman Catholics 72.144.183.135 21:46, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

It's this simple: if you want an article for historian who are Jewish - make a category. If you want a list of Jewish historians then they have to reflect Judaism in their works - or else the list is extraneous. So it's either that or an afd for delete. Antidote 03:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

No its not that simple. You do not define the criteria for this list. That is a matter for consensus, something you do not seem very determined to try and achieve. Furthermore, I again submit to you that the historians you continually remove from this list, without preliminary discussion, meet your own personal interpretation for inclusion. If you bothered to examine their work, you might understand that. Also, despite the fact that you apparently enjoy AfD a great deal, your continued threats are rather boring. -- JJay 08:49, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

This list, as its name says, is a list of historians who are or were Jewish. There has been any amount of discussion about what "Jewish" means in this context, but by any criterion Benjamin of Tudela was Jewish. If Antidote wants to start a list of Historians of Judaism, he is entitled to. - Newport 10:34, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

For some reason, the people editing Jewish lists seem to be very uncompromisizing while a rapid and efficient reform took place on other lists, such as List of Catholics - seeing as how this list is extraneous and should be a category - I have no other choice but to put up an AFD soon. Don't say I didn't try reform it. This list does not have a single predecessor nor does it have contemporaries to qualify it's existence List of German historians List of Christian historians, list of Muslim historians ---- however, if it were a list of Jews writting jewish history it would have a basis for staying here. The stubborn nature of the editors however will most likely bring this list into another afd (unless ofcourse a consensus is found soon) Antidote 20:05, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Because you or people like you got almost half the Catholic lists erased. I worked like mad to save as many as I could so had to set unbelievably high bars to avoid deletion. Most existing Catholic lists are mostly priests, monks, nuns, and people who work for the Catholic League. Added to that Jewish is not just a religion, it's also an ethnicity and ancestry. Isn't there an article on this titled like Who is a Jew?. Anyway the point is Marx fits as he ethnically Jewish. Likewise if there is a List of Parsis then people who did not practice Zoroastrianism could still belong.--T. Anthony 15:37, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

List of Irish historians List of Canadian historians -- JJay 23:47, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Canadian is not an ethnicity and Irish I will put up for deletion as well. Antidote 04:11, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

No, you have not tried to improve this list in any way, as far as I can see. And your approach to reform consists in trying solely to impose your personal viewpoint. Your comments on what is or is not extraneous is not relevant. That is your opinion.

Um my viewpoints? No buddy, many peoples viewpoints - see all the relgious/ethnicity lists that have been reformed lately to fit this type of listing. Antidote 04:11, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for your explanation for the removal of Marx from the list. If you find time in your busy Afd schedule, I would very much appreciate a response. -- JJay 20:20, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok I'll put it in logical order for you

• I attempted to reform the list in order for it to have a criteria for being kept
• You added Karl Marx
  • Karl Marx converted
  • Karl Marx abhored Jews
• How the hell does Karl Marx belong to the list?

Ofcourse now that you reverted it back to the original extraneous list - then w/e - you can put Karl Marx. Antidote 04:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

• Thank you for your extraneous comment which is always appreciated. I know that your time must be limited, between your AfD duties and list reform mission, so I'll keep this brief in the interest of compromisizing. Marx= Jewish historian (also wrote about Jews). No stated criteria here regarding conversion- maybe that's something you would like to develop. Nevertheless, the list format is very helpful for following your logic. If I understand correctly, you now say that liking Jews is a condition for the list? Maybe you could put all of what you want into a list, so we can try to adhere to these whims at one time. We may be stubborn, probably because we have lacked predecessors or contemporaries such as yourself to guide us to an efficient solution. If we can't fit the listing, you or someone else may be forced to line up all these lists for mass deletion, when all we want is a basis to stay and edit... -- JJay 04:55, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I explained before and again what was the criteria I TRIED to establish on this list. Using that criteria Marx did not belong. Now that we're back to the original - whatever, include Marx. But I'm more than certain that this list will soon be reformed - for it has been attempted at deletion before. This, clearly, is not only my opinion and any time I try to compromise by reforming a Jewish list such as I did on List of Roman Catholics and others successfully - I just get a slap in the face. From the looks of it, I can only see an afd as a solution. However, I will gladly populat Category:Jewish historians once the time arises. Antidote 18:22, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Compromise

If I created stubs for the red links and make a category moving all these names into LCategory:Jewish historians would the deletion or another use of this list be supported? Antidote 20:32, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

• For my part, No. -- JJay 20:39, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
• Second comment, if the list was deleted- as you so frequently threaten- how would you know where to begin making stubs? How will people in the future, interested in the topic of this list, know for whom to make stubs? How will anoms be able to add info to a category? -- JJay 20:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Two words:Country lists. Antidote 22:05, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Baron

Is the Salomon Baron same with Salo Wittmayer Baron (ja:サロー・ウィットメイア・バロン)? --210.128.247.147 07:55, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Encyclopaedia Judaica list

I am adding several names from the following source:

Encyclopaedia Judaica (CD version); article Historians. The names are in a list headed Prominent Jewish General Historians.

Thus a reputable source confirms that all these people are

1. Jewish
2. historians
3. prominent (hence notable)

- Newport 21:20, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link to holocaust denial site

hi, i have just deleted a link next to Hallgarten, George to a internet page claiming that Hitler knew nothing of the extermination of the jews and that Himmler was a nice guy. Could I ask all serious users of Wikipedia to watch out for such links and delete them when apropriate.

[edit] This Page Needs MAJOR Pruning

Most of all of the red linked names on this list should be removed, as they are nothing more than fluff (to make the list look more impressive) or only minor historians. Only MAJOR historians and those notable enough to have a Wikipedia article should be included, not every single obscure Jewish history professor/academic found in college or university history departments. --WassermannNYC 04:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see above - many of the red links come from the list of prominent Jewish historians given in the Encyclopaedia Judaica. We thus have a reliable source that they are prominent historians. What evidence is there to the contrary?--20.138.246.89 10:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)