Talk:List of Greek words with English derivatives

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[edit] Sort by citation form

I believe that in Greek, the "lexical form" (((Usually called the citation form in English.--Macrakis 22:13, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)))) of a verb is first person singular, rather than the infinitive as it is in English. So for instance, you would typically see "graphw" for "I write" in a Greek lexicon, rather than "graphein" for "to write", although "to write" is the lexical verb form in English. With that said, it would make more sense to me to see the Greek lexical form used as long as Greek is in the leftmost column. Wesley

Agreed. It is a lot easier to see a verb in the first person present singular than the infinitive. Whilst in most modern languages it is commonplace to refer to verbs by their infinitives, in ancient/classical Greek (and Latin for that matter), I have yet to find a dictionary that refers to regular verbs by the infinitive, and suggest that this article keep to the regular standard. Merchanttaylorsschoolnorthwood 18:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

What in Hell do you mean by saying "if we ever got a Greek alphabet"? Writing Greek letters that are legible as Greek letters on Explorer and Mozilla and other browsers (maybe not on Netscape?) has long be a simple matter on Wikipedia, and recently Wikipedia acquired TeX capabilities.

Α α Β β Γ γ Δ δ

A\,\alpha,\,B,\,\beta,\,\Gamma,\,\gamma,\,\Delta,\,\delta,\,\dots

Michael Hardy 23:40 Jan 13, 2003 (UTC)

[vfd tag placed by anon removed] Niteowlneils 18:34, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What is the point of this article? Why wasn't it deleted? Adam 11:49, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Hmm... Don't ask me, I just sorted the list... Kieff 01:24, May 10, 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Proposal to restructure this article

It seems to me that this article is really two entirely different articles: a list of ancient Greek words that have given rise to English words, and a list of modern Greek expressions for some common English words. I propose to delete the latter as it's very arbitrary in its selection, and inconsistent in its transliteration. If someone wants to re-create it as a separate article they can do so from the history of this page, but in that case they should certainly include the Greek alphabet equivalents.

The first part of the article is potentially useful, but rather misleading. For instance the "Latin transliteration" isn't Latin at all - it's a transliteration into the roman alphabet using a scheme that's neither consistently classical Greek or modern Greek. Also the derivation of some words such as "gynaecology" isn't clear from the form of the word that's shown. rossb 17:44, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article moved

I've just completed a mjor restructuring of this article and moved it from "Greek Lexicon" to "List of Greek words with English derivatives". I've now deleted the modern Greek bit, and reorganised the list of words with English derivatives, which I hope is now in much better shape (although it's still a very short list and could do with considerable expansion). rossb 09:50, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Still to be done

I suggest we could add some or all of the Greek words from List of Latin and Greek words commonly used in systematic names - I've extracted the list as follows (note that the orthography of many of them will need standadising):

brachy G short

caulos G stem, stalk

cephalus G head

chloro G green

cyano G blue-green

dactylus G finger or toe

deca G ten

dermis G skin

di- G two-

diplo- G double

dodeca G twelve

dolicho- G elongated

echinus G spine

ennea G nine

ennea G ninety

erythro G red

gaster G belly

glycis G sweet

halo G salt

hecta G hundred

hendeca G eleven

hepta G seven

heptacota G seventy

hexa G six

hexacota G sixty

icosa G twenty

leucus G white

melanus G black

mono- G one-

morphos G shape

morph- G shape

mauro- G dark

nothos G false, bastard

notos G southern

octa G eight

octaconta G eighty

oeos- G tubular

ortho- G straight

pachys G thick, stout

pelagius G oceanic

penta- G five-

pentaconta G fifty

petra G rocky, stony

phyllo G leaf

phyton G plant

platy G flat

protos G first

pteron G wing

rhiza G root

rhytis G wrinkled

saurus G lizard

stoma G mouth, opening

tetra- G four-

tetraconta G forty

tri- LG three-

trich-, thrix G hair

triconta G thirty

-ura G of the tail

[edit] Prepositions used as prefixes, and derivational suffixes

It seems to me that it would be very useful to include prepositions which are used as prefixes in compound words, e.g. ana, anti, en, peri, pro, ex, etc. And even prefixes which aren't independent prepositions, e.g. a-/an-.

Similarly, it would be useful to include derivational suffixes, even if they are not independent words, e.g. -ismos (archaism), -is/-ida (orchid), -ides (arachnid), -oid, etc.--Macrakis 22:13, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Could I agree and suggest either a section within this article for common prefixes and suffixes or a link to another article containing them. Another idea might be links to lists of phobias (either Wikipedia or external e.g. phobialist.com), manias, -ologies, -ocracies/-archies, etc. Merchanttaylorsschoolnorthwood 18:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Salary from Greek hal- through Latin salarium

Salary was derived from Latin salarium, from root sal-

Ref.: http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/s/s0037300.html

sal-, from Greek hals- (άλς) salt, sea

Ref.: http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/roots/zzs00400.html

Similarly: Astrology from L. Astrologia,[1] from G. Αστρολογία --Odysses 11:19, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but the referenced URL doesn't seem to mention Greek. I've also consulated the Oxford Latin Dictionary, and it treats Salrium as a normal Latin derivative from sal, with no reference to any Greek origin. Of course Greek hals and Latin sal are from the same Indo-European root (with Greek shown the normal loss of initial s and replacement with h, but I can't see any justification for regarding salarium as derived from Greek, so I'm going to delete it again. rossb 17:45, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)


It is quoted in the second link, bottom line.
I have pasted the explanation bellow.

sal- Salt. Extended form *sald-. Suffixed form *sald-o-. SALT, from Old English sealt, salt, from Germanic *saltam;

SOUSE1, from Old French sous, pickled meat; SILT, from Middle English cylte, fine sand, from a source probably akin to Danish and Norwegian sylt, salt marsh. Both (i) and (ii) from Germanic zero-grade suffixed extended form *sult-j; SALSA, SAUCE, SAUSAGE, from Latin sallere (past participle salsus < *sald-to-), to salt. SAL, SALAD, SALAMI, SALARY, SALI-, SALINE; SALMAGUNDI, SALTCELLAR, SALTPETER, from Latin sl (genitive salis), salt. HALO-, from Greek hals (stem hal-), salt, sea. [Pokorny 1. sal- 878.]

Also in root halo-
http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/h/h0030900.html
Interesting that hals means both sea and salt.
The only occurrence meaning sea is in Thessaly, thesis halos (location of sea) --Odysses 18:42, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)


I don't think this is saying that sal derives from hals; it looks as if it's merely giving cognate words in other languages. And there's no way that latin initial s could come from a greek h - the s is the original form, which is retained in Latin and lost in Greek. There are a few rather obscure Latin words that derive from Greek derivatives of hals, but they all retain the h (for instance halipleumon, a jellyfish). rossb 20:05, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)


On the contrary, Latin initial s frequently comes from a Greek h, also within synonymous Greek words. For example:
hemi, semi
hyper, super
hepta, septem,
Hellas Hellen, Selene, selas --Odysses 28 June 2005 16:07 (UTC)
Are you by any chance related to the character in My Big Fat Greek Wedding who maintained that all conceivable words were derived from Greek? :) hemi and semi are both regularly derived from an Indo-European source which would have had an s. Similarly with hepta and septem (where the English word "seven" also preserves the s). In these cases, and others like them, the Latin word has not come from Greek (nor vice versa) but both have derived from a common ancestor. I'm not clear what Hellas etc have to do with it: as far as I know Selene is not related (but I'm away from my dictionaries at present) and I don't recognise selas. rossb 28 June 2005 16:57 (UTC)


Did I explicitly say so, or did you make a wild guess?

Besides, what's the relation between UNIX and the ancient languages? :-)

Roman mythology describes how Aeneas came to Latium from the Greek speaking Troy. In this respect, why would it be unreasonable to assume that Latin was developed from Greek?

Here are some facts.

Homer, Odyssey book 17, card 424
ou su g' an ex oikou sôi epistatêi oud' hala doiês, hos nun allotrioisi parêmenos ou ti moi etlês sitou apoproelôn domenai:
(if you were in your own house you would not spare a poor man so much as a pinch of salt, for though you are in another man's, and surrounded with abundance, you cannot find it in you to give him even a piece of bread.")
Homer, Odyssey book 12, card 111
entha de pollai boskont' Êelioio boes kai iphia mêla, hepta boôn agelai, tosa d' oiôn pôea kala, pentêkonta d' hekasta.
(You will now come to the Thrinacian island, and here you will see many herds of cattle and flocks of sheep belonging to the sun-god- seven herds of cattle and seven flocks of sheep, with fifty head in each flock.)

These words of Homer appeared in written form back in 850 BC. Latin writing appeared 2 centuries later.

In Cratylus by Plato there is very interesting information regarding ancient languages.--Odysses 29 June 2005 12:22 (UTC)


Sorry but this is not relevant. Greek and Latin (or rather Italic, a family of languages to which Latin belongs) had diverged from each other and from the other Indo-European languages a thousand or more years before Homer. The inital s is recorded in many Indo-European languages, for instance English "seven". It changed from s to h at an early stage of Greek, and there is no way that it would have got changed back again in Latin. There are many words of Greek origin in Greek, but these generally reflect the classical Greek (mainly Attic) and in for instance perserve the Greek initial h. There are a few oddities, for instance Greek Odysseus -> latin Ulysses, but these are generally attributed to early borrowings via Etruscan, and don't in any cases restore changes (such as s to h) that had already happened in Greek.
As far as Aeneas is concerned:
  • although Homer represents the Trojans as speaking Greek this may be just a convention (like the Indians speaking English in old Western films). I think it's unknown what language was spoken in Troy.
  • the legend of Aeneas is just that.
  • Aeneas is said to have escaped from Troy with a very small party (was it just his father and young son?) - if he did get to Italy his descendants would probably have assimilated with the locals and ended up speaking a local language
  • ancient epics don't generally dwell on language difficulies - for instance as far as I recall from Virgil, Aeneas had no difficulty conversing with Dido although she would presumably have spoken Phoenician (a Semitic language).
By the way, great as Plato's authority may be in certain areas, I think comparative philology has moved on a bit since his day! rossb 29 June 2005 15:09 (UTC)


Trojans were Greek colonists who moved to Asia Minor. Possibly the earliest king of Troy was Dardanus (presumably from Arcadia).
Aeneas's origin was also from Crete and Italy.
At Delos, Apollo speaks to Aeneas, instructing him to go to the land of his ancestors. Anchises interprets Apollo’s remark as a reference to the island of Crete, where one of the great Trojan forefathers :::http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/aeneid/section3.rhtml
I am afraid the "Indians speaking English" paradigm is not valid.
Of course some of the Trojan allies spoke other languages. They included Carians, Phrygians, Paphlagonians, Ethiopians, etc.
Aeneas had some 5.000 Trojan comrades. They fought many battles and survived on their way to Latium.
Perhaps you may be surprised to know that there were two Trojan wars. One under Agamemnon, and another in the depths of mythology under Heracles.
After the burning of Alexandria library and through the Dark Ages, only 5% of the old texts survived. In the fragments of Orphics, there is mention of Trojan War epics composed long before Homer.--Odysses 30 June 2005 11:35 (UTC)
Yes I think you're right on Aeneas - it just shows one shouldn't post without checking one's sources. But on the main point, if you look at the Proto-Greek article you will see that the loss of initial s (in fact pre-vocalic s generally) was there from the very earliest phase of the language, far earlier than any likely contact with the Latins. I think there's no doubt that the h is an innovation peculiar to Greek, which rather implies that languages (such as Latin and indeed English) which preserve the s can't possibly be descended from Greek, as indeed has been the general view of Indo-European philology for the last 200 years. By the way what is your source for the derivation of Thessaly? At first sight it looks rather unlikely - Greek ss (or tt in Attic) as far I recall (again without checking so I may be wrong) generally has a different origin to a single s. rossb 30 June 2005 19:07 (UTC)


Thanks. I am not sure if this is any relevant, but in my previous examples, Hellas Helen, also Helios are related to light emitting, whereas Selene (moon) and selas (Aurora Borealis)) are reflectors of light.


I found something on Thessaly.
The fertile plain of Thessaly, shut in on an sides by lofty mountain ranges, and watered by the river Peneius and its tributary streams, was believed to have once formed a vast lake...
http://snible.org/coins/hn/thessaly.html
Herodotus, CXXIX.
In ancient days, it is said, there was not yet this channel and outfall, but those rivers and the Boebean lake, which was not yet named, had the same volume of water as now, and thereby turned all Thessaly into a sea.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126;query=chapter%3D%231193;layout=;loc=7.130.1


I assume Thessaly was derived as:
Θέσις αλός, Θεσισαλία, Θεσσαλία, or Θετταλία


It has been estimated today that the pass of Tempe, the canyon between Olympus and Ossa, must have been opened towards the end of the glacial epoch, when the ice melted, the sea level rose and water found a way out to the sea.--Odysses 2 July 2005 16:04 (UTC)

[edit] Generation and vineyard

Generation is from Latin, not Geek, as the -ation suffix might suggest (normally from Latin, except in the form -ization). Obviously it's the same Indo-European root, but the r in gneration is a tell-tale sign: the word in Indo-European would have been genos, genetive genesos. Th medial s is weakened in boht Greek and Latin, but differently, giving Greek genos, geneos, Latin genus, generis.

Vineyard is from latin vīnum. Again it's cognate with Greek oinos, which did indeed in early times have a form with an initial digamma, but I can't find in Liddle and Scott any trace of a form omitting the omicron. rossb 20:32, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)


I have found something on Ϝοῖνος on Digamma. You were right omicron should not be omitted.
...the word for wine, οἶνος, was used in the meter where a word starting with a consonant should have been placed. Further evidence coupled with cognate-analysis shows that οἶνος should be Ϝοῖνος.
It would sound like vinos or winos.
Homer's epics appeared in written form presumably at approximately 850 BC. The Duenos inscription dated back to the 6th century BC. One of the earliest Latin poets. Quintus Ennius (239 - 169 BC) composed 650 years after Homer.
It is well known that Odysseus treated Polyphemus with οἶνος :-)
Before the adoption of Latin alphabet, i.e. before 650 BC I would expect the Latin vocabulary to comprise of 10 – 20.000 entries at the most. Therefore, I wouldn't expect any complex formats before 650 BC.--Odysses 4 July 2005 10:06 (UTC)

[edit] English Derivatives column

I do believe that derivative words in this right hand column shouldn't necessarily link to WP articles. They actually represent dictionary entries, not encyclopaedia articles. I've noticed some removals when there isn't any active link of the derivative.--Odysses 13:46, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

This also causes some disambiguation things - we link to a disambiguation page for organ for example. Is this sensible? Would a gerneral redirect to the Wiktionary be better? LeeG 23:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] false etymologies

The following English derivatives need to be removed from the list:

- Potomac is derived from the Native American tribe Patawomek not from the Greek word, potom.

- Lysistrata is not an 'English derivative' of the Greek word lysis. It's a name of a 5th century BCE play and its main character. It can be argued that Aristophanes meant the character's name to evoke the Greek word. But it can't be argued that this proper noun can be used as a common one in English today (like odyssey or academy can). (One wonders why Aristophanes - 'best' + 'speaker' - is not on the list if we just include all proper nouns. ha!)

- Same thing with Calypso (the Greek nymph) as with Lysistrata.

- More proper names: Alexander, Agapitus, Amaryllis, Aphrodite, Agape Europe (an organization), Almondsbury (common on), .

- Phobos (either god of fear or moon of Mars) is a terrible example of a derivative of the Greek word Phobos (god of fear).

- anti- is a bit over exampled. antibiotics and antiseptic, cool. antitank? anticyclone? antivirus? antigravity? a little of a stretch.

Other comments:

- arachnophobia or agoraphobia are better examples of a phob derivative than Cryophobia because people have already heard of them and because they use other Greek stems on this list.

- programma in Greek doesn't mean to program (can we just say, "write publicly" or to add a 'gram' stem?).

- likewise, allegory is derived from allegorein, which is supposed to mean 'to interpret allegorically'? Come on, that's not even what etymoline.com says (they say "to describe one image for another").

- akrostikhis doesn't mean 'head, end' in Greek.

- amethyst doesn't mean 'not drunk'. (wouldn't methys, wine, be a better base word anyhow?)

- amphora doesn't mean 'bearer'

- anorthosis = erection? This seems highly dubious as there's a football club called Anorthosis in Cyprus. Anorthosis_Famagusta_FC. Sounds like a prank.

- acoustic guitar, accoustic engineering, acoustic nerve, ... too redudant

Some of your points are correct. I'll try to fix them and answer the "incorrect" points later. +MATIA ☎ 01:34, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
If you want, you may check in the meantime some of your points, with the linked wiki-articles or The Compact Oxford English Dictionary, one example. +MATIA ☎ 12:10, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Answers to the "false etymologies"

I can only reply to the questions above on entries that I have inserted personally.

For an old user Slava, you have a small number of contributions.

I have used several English dictionaries as a reference. One of them is the on-line American Heritage ® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition [2]. In my opinion it's a reliable English dictionary. However, I would be interested to hear different opinions.

  • - More proper names: Alexander, Agapitus, Amaryllis, Aphrodite, Agape Europe (an organization), Almondsbury (common on),

Why do you suggest to delete them? You would normally find those entries in most dictionaries [3], [4], [5]. Besides, Alexander is also a cocktail, aphrodisiac is a stimulant. Names too, normaly have an etymology.

  • - Phobos (either god of fear or moon of Mars) is a terrible example of a derivative of the Greek word Phobos (god of fear).

As above. [6]

  • - anti- is a bit over exampled. antibiotics and antiseptic, cool. antitank? anticyclone? antivirus? antigravity? a little of a stretch.

They are all entries found in a dictionaty [7]

  • - arachnophobia or agoraphobia are better examples of a phob derivative than Cryophobia because people have already heard of them and because they use other Greek stems on this list.

I don't see why there should be a limitation as to the number of examples in the "English Derivative" column. There are numerous examples of –phobia derivatives, ref. [8] and I see no reason to reject some/any of them.

  • - likewise, allegory is derived from allegorein, which is supposed to mean 'to interpret allegorically'? Come on, that's not even what etymoline.com says (they say "to describe one image for another").

From The American Heritage ® Dictionary of the English Language: allegory [Middle English allegorie, from Latin allegoria, from Greek, from allegorein, to interpret allegorically. Ref. [9]

  • - amethyst doesn't mean 'not drunk'. (wouldn't methys, wine, be a better base word anyhow?)

From The American Heritage ® Dictionary of the English Language: amethyst n. [Middle English amatist, from Old French, from Latin amethystus, from Greek amethustos, not drunk or intoxicating, [10]

  • - amphora doesn't mean 'bearer'

From The American Heritage ® Dictionary of the English Language: amphora [Middle English, from Latin, from Greek amphoreus, short for amphiphoreus : amphi-, amphi- + phoreus, bearer (from pherein, to bear; see bher-1 in Indo-European roots).] [11]

  • - acoustic guitar, accoustic engineering, acoustic nerve, ... too redudant

I don't see your point. They do include the word "acoustic" don't they? Is there an alternative to "acoustic" in this case? I haven't seen the term i.e. "audio guitar" or "audio nerve" anywhere.

  • - akrostikhis doesn't mean 'head, end' in Greek.

[French acrostiche, from Old French, from Greek akrostikhis : akron, head, end ; see acromegaly + stikhos, line; see steigh- in Indo-European roots.] [12]

Correct. It should be: head-line, end-line

  • anorthosis = erection? This seems highly dubious as there's a football club called Anorthosis in Cyprus.

an·or·tho·site Listen: [ n-ôrth-st ] [French anorthose, a kind of feldspar (Greek an-, not; see a-1 + Greek orthos, straight) + -ite.]

Another alternative would be "rectification".

A reliable Dictionary should have as many entries as possible. So should this list.--Odysses 12:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] criteria for inclusion in this list

First Odysses let me apologize (! on the list?) for seeming combative in my previous comment. I was humbly scanning along when I bumped into Potomac. Since I grew up on the American East Coast I feel a certaina affinity to American place names and their etymology. I knew that most old place names were derived from (1) Native American names/words or (2) English words/persons, or (3) European place names (mostly British). If Potomac was dervied from a Greek language word, it would be a surpise (Philadelphia is one exception). Also it's a surprise if someone named a river the Greek word for 'river' with nothing else to qualify the name (that's something kids do with their toys, adults use qualifiers like "Red" or 'Yellow'). I looked it up and indeed it wasn't, and I felt I needed to put in a comment.

Adding a comment on Potomac made me ask if there were other false etymologies. Going through the list I saw a few questionable etymylogies (such as Lysistrata from lysis) and in general I wondered what the criteria for inclusion was. The scope of the list seemed endless - anything and everything seemed to be included. Why had all those acoustic phrases been included when there's only one derived word there ('acoustic')? And so forth.

So I made comments about some of the included words and their derivations.

Odysses, let me address the comments you have made about my comments...

  • Proper names.
    More proper names: Alexander, Agapitus, Amaryllis, Aphrodite, Agape Europe (an organization), Almondsbury...
    Why do you suggest to delete them? You would normally find those entries in most dictionaries [3], [4], [5]. Besides, Alexander is also a cocktail, aphrodisiac is a stimulant. Names too, normaly have an etymology.
    Phobos (either god of fear or moon of Mars) is a terrible example of a derivative of the Greek word Phobos (god of fear).
    As above. [6]
    Yes. I strongly suggest proper names be deleted. Dictionaries include proper names all the time; that doesn't mean that these are English words derived from Greek. I imagine a Greek dictionary has the words Washington or Churchill in it. That doesn't mean 'Washington' and 'Churchill' are Greek words! (They're not.) Wikipedia can simply have a seperate page for Greek proper names (individuals' names, place names, and gods like Phobos). This page can link to it. Alexander is an interesting one. I don't think Alexander, the famed Macedonian leader (or the couple Hellenistic and Russian namesakes) should be included and linked to. Alexander the drink, or the celery-like herb, possibly. Depending upon how specialized these usages are (see my criterion #3 below). By the way we missed alexandrine (a type of verse) and alexandrite (a semi-precious stone). (By the way, Aphrodisiac is not a stimulant, like caffeine, but that's irrelavant for this discussion: I would like Aphrodite--the proper name referring to the goddess--deleted and aphrodisiac and April ([13]) included.) Question: Do you seriously propose that Almondsbury should be on the list? Or Almathea? See my criteria #, below.
  • Lots of superfluous a- and anti- derivatives.
    anti- is a bit over exampled. antibiotics and antiseptic, cool. antitank? anticyclone? antivirus? antigravity? a little of a stretch.
    They are all entries found in a dictionaty [7]
    I checked out the link [14]. There were dozens of entries there. Why didn't you include anti-American, anti-antibody, anti-art, anti-Black, anti-choice, antihero, antiheroine, anti-infective, anti-inflammatory, anti-intellectual, Anti-Lebanon Range, anti-roll bar, anti-Semite, anti-Semitism, anti-sway bar, anti-utopia, anti-white, antiabortion and the other hundereds words given on that site? (these were from the first page alone. there would be hundred plus if all were included.) Why not all these? You must have used some rationale? What is it?
  • Various.
    • arachnophobia or agoraphobia are better examples of a phob derivative than Cryophobia because people have already heard of them and because they use other Greek stems on this list.
      I don't see why there should be a limitation as to the number of examples in the "English Derivative" column. There are numerous examples of –phobia derivatives, ref. [8] and I see no reason to reject some/any of them.
      My bad. The goal, I neglected, is to be inclusive rather than just examplary. Though there a lot -phobia words that are either highly specialized (bacillophobia) or one-off inventions (anuptaphobia, see [15]). There needs to be some criteria for including phobias on this list or not (my opinion expressed below in criterion #3).
    • amethyst doesn't mean 'not drunk'. (wouldn't methys, wine, be a better base word anyhow?)
      From The American Heritage ® Dictionary of the English Language: amethyst n. [Middle English amatist, from Old French, from Latin amethystus, from Greek amethustos, not drunk or intoxicating, [10]

      The dictionaries (see [16], [17], [18]) seem equivocal whether amethustos meant the color/stone 'amethyst' or 'remedy for intoxication' or 'not drunk' when the word was imported into Latin from Greek. My guess would be it meant the mineral as Latin most likely had a native word for 'not drunk' (sobrius has a long derivation from a kind of wine jug) when it imported amethystus. But it sure makes for a good story.

      My suggestion is to use meth- as the base word and amethyst, methane, methadone, methanol as derived words (there are dozens of -meth- chemical words, these few are fairly common).

    • amphora doesn't mean 'bearer'
      From The American Heritage ® Dictionary of the English Language: amphora [Middle English, from Latin, from Greek amphoreus, short for amphiphoreus : amphi-, amphi- + phoreus, bearer (from pherein, to bear; see bher-1 in Indo-European roots).] [11]
      So what is it that means 'bearer'? Isn't it phoreus the word that means 'bearer'? Amphi- means on both sides. Amphora in Greek means exactly what it does in English (not 'bearer'). I don't understand why the translation 'bearer' is included as a meaning. Imagine if someone told you that 'Sunday' just meant 'sun'; would be rather confusing no?
    • anorthosis = erection? This seems highly dubious as there's a football club called Anorthosis in Cyprus.
      an·or·tho·site [French anorthose, a kind of feldspar (Greek an-, not; see a-1 + Greek orthos, straight) + -ite.]

      Anorthoclase is derived from the word geological orthoclase not from anorthosis (yes, it akes a difference as the claim is that anortho). claimed. Anorthos = not straight [19] and [20] that is, opposite of erection, rectification. Please we need to do better. Can we put anorthosite under ortho- , if at all?

      In general there are far too many poor etymologies concerning the prepositions (anates- does not mean to stretch, analy- doesn't mean uneducated, akakia- is not stinging nettle, etc) and overall (ankylοp- doesn't mean with bent legs, anale- doesn't mean to gather, amaranth- doesn't mean unfading flower, etc, etc).

      These look sloppy. And defending anorthosis as erection, looks worse.

    • likewise, allegory is derived from allegorein, which is supposed to mean 'to interpret allegorically'? Come on, that's not even what etymoline.com says (they say "to describe one image for another").
      From The American Heritage ® Dictionary of the English Language: allegory [Middle English allegorie, from Latin allegoria, from Greek, from allegorein, to interpret allegorically. Ref. [9]

      Here's my question: why do we need an entire table entry for allegory (allegorein)? The meaning in Greek is the same as it is in English. The reader derives no benefit from reading "allegor-". It looks foolish to suggest that allegor- is a stem of some sort, it's not. There are tons of words liek this on the list. That is, words that are used in English but there's not point in writign what the Greek meaning of the root word is because it's exactly the same as the one in English.

      Examples: amphora, allegory, agape (is that even an English word?), agon, miasma, hoi polloi, polis, hubris, anabasis, etc, etc. There are so many words like on the current list it's frustrating as a reader to read them and get no new information. It's a waste of the reader's time in fact. And one thing readers hate is wasting their time on something that doesn't add to their experience. It really distracts the reader.

    • Arcturian is not even a word in any of the standard dictionaries. Not even a specialized word. And what in the world does 'bearward' mean?

[edit] What are the criteria for inclusion on the list?

Odysses, is it any word that can be used in an English sentence? Like Aristotle, Chersonese, Eurydice and amaurosis fugax? Is it every turn of phrase - crisis center and critical path as well as crisis and critical and cris de couer, every imaginablely repetitive pleonasm (airbag and air bubble and air pistol and air guitar and dozens of more air phrases and conglomerations), every superspecialized scientific term - every Rhyncops nigris (skimmer birds) and Cerebrus rhyncops (the Dog's face snake), every pentamethylene and methylnaphthalene, every ephemeris and periapsis, every colpotomy and onychoosteodysplasia (there's half a book devoted to Greek medical etymology, [21]) and bradyautoencephalophasia ([22])?

Is the only criterion for inclusion: anything found in a dictionary? Anything and everything at all that?

Yes, this is a very objective criterion. I'm afraid though that it won't make for an interesting Wikipedia article if all that we editors do is transcribe English derivatives from dictionaries. As I hinted above there would be tens of thousands, maybe a hundred thousand, entries in this article - many needlessly repetitive (the acoustic guitar, acoustic engineering, acoustic nerve, etc., set) many soporifically uninteresting outside the specialized field.

That's not what I want. I hazard to guess that's not what other Wikipedia readers and editors want either. They want a slightly subjective, more modular approach. If editors get tired of contributing to this list and if readers balk at its lenght, this page will serve no purpose.

Odysses wrote:

A reliable Dictionary should have as many entries as possible. So should this list.

I disagree. This is Wikipedia article (just one!) not a dictionary.

So here are my suggestions for list inclusion which I believe will make such a list a more viable one to use.

[edit] Suggested Criteria

  1. Make a list of words that mean the same in Greek as in English. It will take up much less space to just list them straight out not in a table: amphora (amphora, ἀμφορεύς), amphitheater (ἀμφιθέατρον, amphitheatron), amphimacer (ἀμφίμακρος, amphimakros) and so on.
  2. Make a list of preopositions (like meta- and anti-) often combined with non-Greek stems. As mentioned earlier if antitank is on this list, there will be a 100,000 words included on it.
  3. Specialized words excluded. That is, words not used outside of their specific field.
    There are so many Greek-derived words that never wander outside of geology, biology, medicine, astronomy, zoology, linguistics, or rhetoric/prosody. My suggestion is to make seperate Wikipedia articles for each of these fields and link to them. Specialists in those fields will appreciate the effort without cluttering this general derivation page. There is also a fine line here. One needs to know what's a specialized term and what's highly specialized. I'd suggest Googling the term: if it mainly comes in specialized articles than it should be relegated to specialized Wikipedia pages.
    in general use very specialized
    metaphor anabasis, aphaeresis, synchysis, hendiadys
    chorus, drama, comedy epirrhema, stasimon, monody
    alphabet, delta, gamma, iota rhoticism, lambdacism
    iambic amphimacer, epitrite
    stalgmite speleothem, spherulite
    arthritis, iris, esophagus amaurosis fugax, syncope, nosocomial, parenchyma, omphalocele
    asbestos, diamond, emerald, amethyst amianthus, dolerite. diagenese, analcime
    ellipse apoapsis, asymptote, kurtosis
    chemistry, phosphorous alembic, ylem, aliphatic
    petroleum phenakite, psammite, pegmatite
    peony, myrrh, hyacinth alyssum, monacanthon, pachygaster, amaurobiidae
  4. Exclude proper nouns.
    No Greek place names (Attica, Boetician, Delian problems). No Greek gods characters (no Nike, Phobe, Heracles, Rhadamanthus, Ganymede, Amalthea, Erative, Elysian Fields). No real or mythic people (no Pythagorean theorem, Paris, Orphic, Minotaur, Hippocratic oath). Not first names (no Barbara, Peter, Christopher, George, Cynthia, Diana, Phoebe, Callista, Melissa - we shoud put these on another Wikipedia page). No made up words that refer to specific places or things (Megalopolis, Micronesia, Indianapolis, Philadelphia, sorry no 'Wikipedia'!).
    Except: Derived word means something different from original referand.
    • Basic way to determine if meaning has changed or been abstracted: does it begin with a uppercase letter or a lower case in the derived word? So "My house is spartan" --> 'spartan' is OK. "My house has Corinthian columns." --> 'Corinthian' is still a proper word (refering to specific architecture syle). Also: "I follow stoic guidelines" --> stoic is OK. But "I practise Attic rhetoric" --> Atticism not OK.
    • Examples of derivations:
      Eponyms: epicurean, euhemerism, stoic, platonic, sophist, alexandrine/alexandrite, aphrodisiac, hermaphrodite, thespian, sisyphean, herculean, priapic, callipygian, hermeneutic, hermetic, cyclops, rhea, eleutherian, tantalize, odyssey, olympic, calliope, thalian, aegis, titan, promethean, paean, peony, hyacinth, uranium, harpy, pygmy, hector, stentorian, sybil, oedipal, narcissism, rhesus, myrmidon, siren, philippic, draconian, procrustean, panic, solon, protean, pyrrhonism, icarian, gorgon, atlas, augean, chimera, mithridatism, nestor, mentor, sapphic, satyr, hydra, boreal, rhadamanthine, manichean, nemisis, pander, corybantic.
      Toponyms: spartan, laconic, lesbian, byzantine (or is this a Latin word?), delphic, attic, caryatid, cypress, cyprian, currant (from Corinth!), academy, python, tartarous, marathon, helot, malmsey, arcadian, parchment, colophon, abderian, stygian, lethal, sardonic, pierian, hadal, meander.
    • Possible exceptions to the upper/lower case rule (they don't refer to original places): place names that refer to non-Greek places. Antarctica, Atlantic, Mesopotamia, Asia.
      The line between proper nouns and common English words is subjective and open to discussion. I can be swayed on Midas touch, Pandora's box, Cassandra, Ananias, Croesus, Adonis, Cimmerian, Scylla/Charbdis, Achilles tendon (because they are meaningful outside of their original ocntext).
  5. Better etymological basis. This can be done simpler by having a bibliography of 3-5 dictionaries which account for the majority of etymolgies. Any exceptions can be linked to specifically. The etymological basis for these derivations need to be clearer and stronger.

Any comments on criteria? Thank you.

Apologies, for neglecting to sign earlier (I have some more derivative words to suggest, in a moment, see I'm on your side, Odysses!)...

slava 17:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

First Slava, thank you for your interesting and comprehensive analysis. Only an hour ago I noticed it, although you have posted it three days ago. Just to let you know that I will read it carefully (it will probably take some time) and I will come back.--Odysses 14:15, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


As I mentioned before Slava, you have made a comprehensive analysis, indicating good command of the subject. Welcome aboard!

Perhaps you've noticed that from 15-Non-05 until now I have entered over 200 entries exclusively in letter Alpha. I have double-checked the validity from several sources, but one can never be sure.

I will try to reply to your questions in turns, due to it's length.

    • More proper names: Alexander, Agapitus, Amaryllis, Aphrodite, Agape Europe (an organization), Almondsbury (common on)
      Yes. I strongly suggest proper names be deleted.

Apologies for my previous reply. Yes. This is important. I respect this rule. Otherwise I would be tempted to enter from this list [23] or this [24] or this [[25] (in Greek)]

      • stoic is OK. But "I practise Attic rhetoric" --> Atticism not OK.

On atticism I had this in mind [26] (a witty or well-turned phrase)


Attica replaced with attic [27] (area immediately under roof).

    • I would like Aphrodite--the proper name referring to the goddess--deleted and aphrodisiac and April included.)

deleted/included

    • Question: Do you seriously propose that Almondsbury should be on the list? Or Almathea? See my criteria #, below.

Almondsbury already removed. For Amalthea I had in mind this [28] (Amalthe’a’s Horn). However it was removed.

Agape Europe removed long ago.

    • Examples of derivations:
    • Eponyms: epicurean, euhemerism, stoic, platonic, sophist, alexandrine/alexandrite, aphrodisiac, hermaphrodite, thespian, sisyphean, herculean, priapic, callipygian, hermeneutic, hermetic, cyclops, rhea, eleutherian, tantalize, odyssey, olympic, calliope, thalian, aegis, titan, promethean, paean, peony, hyacinth, uranium, harpy, pygmy, hector, stentorian, sybil, oedipal, narcissism, rhesus, myrmidon, siren, philippic, draconian, procrustean, panic, solon, protean, pyrrhonism, icarian, gorgon, atlas, augean, chimera, mithridatism, nestor, mentor, sapphic, satyr, hydra, boreal, rhadamanthine, manichean, nemisis, pander, corybantic.
    • Toponyms: spartan, laconic, lesbian, byzantine (or is this a Latin word?), delphic, attic, caryatid, cypress, cyprian, currant (from Corinth!), academy, python, tartarous, marathon, helot, malmsey, arcadian, parchment, colophon, abderian, stygian, lethal, sardonic, pierian, hadal, meander.
      (byzantine: after Byzas. The term was introduced somewhere in the 17th century).

You have some interesting candidate entries here. Perhaps you could start adding them, and if you need any help, just call.--Odysses 19:32, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Some further thoughts

This article is getting out of hand, and is in danger of becoming a list of English words with Greek origins. Such a list used to exist, but was quite rightly deleted, on the grounds that it was completely open-ended, and more the province of Wictionary than Wikipedia.

The article is supposed to be what the title says - a list of Greek words with English derivatives. Only just enough examples should be given to show how the Greek word is adapted in English. So for instance it's useful to show "air" as well as one or two "aero-" derivatives, but completely inappropriate to include words such as airbag, which are not derived from Greek, they're derived from an English word that in turn just happens to be derived from Greek. Similarly there cannot be any justification for including phrases such as "acoustic guitar" - it's the word "acoustic" that's derived from Greek, not the phrase. --rossb 18:40, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Meanwhile I've deleted some entries that don't seem to be derived from Greek. And I'm dubious about some of the others, for instance anabaptizein according to Liddell and Scott means to sink (of a ship) - I suspect that anabaptist etc are relative modern constructions from the two Greek roots, rather from a Greek compound. --rossb 18:40, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

You were right about paragon, it's italian. There are plenty of lists that have survived AfD, lists are alternatives to categories (some things cannot be categorised and others cannot be listed). And yes, acoustic is a better example than acoustic guitar. I've listed organon, according to COD it's greek origin, and my Etymology dictionary relates it with the theme ᾽έργ- of ᾽έργω. +MATIA ☎ 19:46, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] When in doubt ... delete

Look up in a dictionary, preferably a pocket edition, locate an entry of the List of Greek words with English derivatives that you can't find in your dictionary, then delete.

It's easy, simple and you get credits for showing intelligence and expertise. Furthermore, it frustrates those who spent hours of research to enter each valid entry.

For example:

Ross Burgess wrote:

  • Deletic anorganos - no such word in Liddell and Scott, and inorganic is clearly formed with a Latin prefix)
Yet, in Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon the entry ανόργανος exists:
ανόργανος without instruments, Plu.Per.16; βίος [29]
In Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon the entry ανόργανος also exists:
ανόργανος [όργανον] without instruments, Plut. [30]
Apologies - yes it is in Liddell and Scott. But it's still not valid here as it's clearly not the origin of the word "inorganic", which is derived from the word "organic" wwith a Latin-derived prefix.
Apologies accepted. Thanks. Aνόργανος meaning without instruments was first used some 20 centuries ago, then in 19th century this term was re-invented back in the 19th century, meaning not organic; without the organs necessary for life, probably unaware of the existing Greek word. I do realize your point,
There must be a better way to decide upon keeping/deleting entries.--Odysses 18:54, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


Plutarch actually used the term anorganos some 19 cecturies ago.
  • Deleting paragon (unknown origin))
Yet, in Encarta® World English Dictionary
paragon: [Mid-16th century. Via French < Italian paragone, originally "touchstone to test gold" < medieval Greek parakonan "compare," literally "sharpen against"] [31]
Also, in Online Etymology Dictionary
paragon: from Gk. parakonan "to sharpen, whet, [32]
On this one I was following the Shorter Oxford Dictionary, which gives it as derived from Italian, etymoogy obscure. --rossb

If everyone follows the above examples the list will be reduced to 1-2 entries per letter, so it will be far more simple and easier to understand. --Odysses 11:18, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] question

Does any one of you use (an old version of) internet explorer to edit this article? +MATIA ☎ 19:01, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I use Internet Explorer Version 6: but why do you ask? --rossb 19:40, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I left a note at Curps' talk page requesting to have his bot fix the unicode characters of that article. Some versions of IE (I think 5 or 6) mess with those characters (converting them into &3534; or something like that). +MATIA ☎ 19:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I also use Internet Explorer Version 6:
But I don't think it's a problem of Explorer. These are the two alternative ways to enter characters
Directly from keyboard: α β γ δ ἁ ἂ , inputted as: α β γ δ ἁ ἂ
Manually: α β γ δ ἁ ἂ inputted as: & #945; & #946; & #947; & #948; & #7937; & #7938;



The easiest way is to use the Greek keyboard, as above. Hopefully, you all do.--Odysses 12:13, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] April

What's your source for deriving April from Aphrodite? The Oxford Latin Dictionary entry for Aprīlis gives the derivation as "Dubious, perhaps Etruscan". (I've got another, much older, dictionary that derives it from the verb aperiō, "I open") --rossb 18:01, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

It was proposed by slava to replace Aphrodite with April. See external link 13 on this page.--Odysses 18:24, 11 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Proposed table of entries for deletion

I would like to suggest a table on which anyone could propose entries for deletion as follows.

It could look something like this (other ideas welcomed):

Proposed entry for deletion Reasons against Reasons in favour Notes
antiaircraft, antiallergic, antianxiety, antiballistic missile Lots of superfluous anti- derivatives
I propose this sample list instead:

antibiotic, anticyclone, antidiabetic, antihero, antihistamine, antioxidant, antiseptic, antistatic--Odysses 10:01, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

 - anti- derivatives were reduced to those of the proposed list on the left, as no objection was raised for well over a month --Odysses 18:28, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
anorganos I think that anorganos is an-organ-os, and therefore redundant - Deleted as no objection was raised for well over a month--Odysses 18:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
aero-" derivatives it's useful to show "air" as well as one or two "aero-" derivatives, but all the compounds starting with "air" should be deleted

I propose this sample list instead:

aerodynamics, aerofoil, aeronautics, aerospace, aerobic, airplane, airship --Odysses 18:56, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

 Air is validly derived from the Greek word, but its componound are not: they're derived from "air" (the English word) itself

It seems to me that air- and aero- derivatives are equivalent, air- used in North American English and aero- used in Commonwealth English respectively. (see airplane or aeroplane and airfoil or aerofoil)--Odysses 18:56, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

 reduced
architect It's from Latin architectus not Greek I think it's Greek. See entry in LSI: [33]
Architect should probably stay (LSJ and COD). +MATIA ☎ 20:52, 11 December 2005 (UTC)		 architect remains
agriculture From latin ager=tilted land, as seen by the connecting vowel i instead of o as in agronomics Andreas 15:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

From Latin ager (genitive agrī), earlier agros, property, field --Odysses 16:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Although technically AGRIA, AGRO-; AGROSTOLOGY, ONAGER, STAVESACRE, is derived from Greek agros, field, and agrios, wild. and AGRARIAN; AGRICULTURE, PEREGRINE, PILGRIM, from Latin ager (genitive agrī), earlier *agros, district, property, field. [34] I cannot help noticing that the earlier form of ager is agros, [35] indicating either Greek origin or common origin.--Odysses 10:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

 - deleted --Odysses 16:41, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

If after a period of i.e. one week or one month (you name it) no strong arguments are raised, then the item could be deleted.

Would this be any practical?--Odysses 19:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I presume you mean a table on the talk page rather than in the article itself? If so I think this is a good idea. --rossb 20:30, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes, perhaps we could move it on top of this page.--Odysses 20:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Architect should probably stay (LSJ and COD). +MATIA ☎ 20:52, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I have taken the liberty to copy it in the table. Hope it's okay.--Odysses 09:14, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

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