Talk:List of French Jews

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
Portal:France
 France Portal
List of French Jews is within the scope of WikiProject France, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to France and Monaco on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.

For a May 2005 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of French Jews

Contents

[edit] Politicians

I really don't think that René Mayer is Jewish, but I can't confirm this yet--Maxn 03:39, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You may be right – the only places he's described as Jewish are in informal discussions alongside Blum and Mendès-France, which may be purely due to his name. I've removed him for now.
Question: can you confirm Philippe Starck? I couldn't find anything online (in French or English). Also do you know whether Debré is fully Jewish or only part? Juko 11:18, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I will look for the Starck references. I read an interview with him within the last year where he talked about the oddness of growing up chubby and Jewish in Paris. Maxn 14:26, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I was not able to find the Starck references anywhere online, so I guess his status has to remain uncertain for now. Maxn 20:51, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Following up on Michel Debré: he clearly has a Jewish grandfather. Furthermore, his son Bernard described Michel's father Robert as "élevé dans le judaïsme" but implies no other Jewish heritage. I think this means that Robert was born Jewish but married out, making Michel half-Jewish. Juko 13:56, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You may well be right about that. I will look for further references on his mother.

Looking more carefully online, it seems Mayer probably had some Jewish origins after all. For example this PDF file says "...on trouve des hommes juifs de tout bord politique, comme René Cassin, René Mayer, ou Jules Moch et Pierre Mendès-France, évadés des prisons de Vichy". (Also, this description of René's cousin-once-removed indicates that Captain Armand Mayer is René's great-uncle.) Juko 01:37, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit]

Can anyone provide a reference for Nicholas Sarkozy? I always thought he must be part Jewish but never have found any credible reference stating that. Maxn 20:56, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Here are a few: BBC News, London Times, Washington Post (search for "Jewish"). On closer inspection, I suspect only his maternal grandfather was Jewish (e.g. as in Yahoo! France). I've removed him until I find out more. Juko 21:49, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit]

Regarding Phil Spector's inclusion on this list: his mother was French (born of Russian immigrant parents), although he was born in New York City and raised in Los Angeles. This is documented in Mark Ribowsky's biography of Spector, He's A Rebel.

I don't think Liliane Bettencourt (Loreal) is jewish only her son in law is. I think it should be erased.

[edit] Jewish? / In the List?

please add to the list or answer me.

--Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 10:38, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Mad Jack 21:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed People

[edit] Rabbis

Moses ha-Darshan

[edit] Liliane Bettencourt isn't Jewish. Not that I care that she's on the list but it isn't accurate. Her son in law is Jewish but she isn't. Can someone prove different???

can someone erase it ???

Taken care of.

Apparently, as soon as this was taken care of a user promptly reverted the removal. Apparently people on this list are Jewish even when no sources exist to say they are. 72.144.136.54 13:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Balthus

Balthus has a reference, so should not be deleted. Jewprom is not a Wikipedia mirror. It does link to Wikipedia (not the same thing), but it has a list of the sources it has used. True, Amazon does sell biographies, but that does not mean that every statement on the Amazon site is an official or authorised biography.--20.138.246.89 15:17, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

If you can't see that the material is virtually copied and pasted from old wikipedia lists, you must be blind. It shouldn't matter though since we already know his mother probably had Jewish ancestors. The fact that Balthus denied having Jewish ancestry, and didn't practice Judaism really doesn't help his case. [2] It states that his father was Polish Catholic Gentry and his mother a Polish immigrant to France who was descended from the Russian Romanovs (who we know were Christians). Her father supposedly was a cantor which suggests through at least her paternal ancestry, there was Jewish practice. Nonetheless, Balthus' parents were Christians, as was Balthus himself - in fact, an ardent Catholic, he called the pope his "soul mate", and he denied his mother was Jewish throughtout his life. To be honest, who's a better source than Balthus himself? We don't know the details, and even if his mother did have significant Jewish ancestry..if he wishes not to be called Jewish then so be it. 72.144.161.165 20:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Further references have been found for Balthus; in any case, Jewprom is not discredited (see Talk:List of Polish Jews).--Brownlee 20:05, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Please read the paragraph above. Nobody is saying 0 sources exist saying Balthus's mother was of Jewish faith. 72.144.136.114 16:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Referencing

Eugene Schueller is both a Nazi sympathizer and Jewish? Odd but possible. Any references?

"In addition, individuals actively assisted the Vichy regime, and the Nazis as well, by seizing Jewish private property, annihilating synagogues and other Jewish monuments, and in transporting Jews to Nazi death camps. Examples being Eugene Schueller, (the founder of the biggest cosmetics company in the world, French company, L’Oreal) and his L’Oreal colleagues, Andre Bettencourt and Jacques Correze."

Also, Brezin and Wollman have had [citation needed] tags on them for quite a while. If anyone can find a source within a few days, notably the users who added their names, please provide them. Otherwise, the names will have to be removed. 68.223.217.166

[edit] Alexander Grothendieck

As discussed at Talk:Alexander Grothendieck, his father was undoubtedly jewish and the best source says that his mother was, too. Even if she was not, this is a list of "Jews and people of Jewish origins", so he is clearly eligible.--Brownlee 16:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

The following need to be sourced to sources that say they are Jewish

Mad Jack 21:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nicolas Sarkozy

Nicolas Sarcozy should certainly be in this list:

  • Despite the edit summary of the person deleting him, his mother was 100% Jewish [3]; when the BBC quote in the article describes her as "Greek and Jewish", it means that she was a Jew from Greece.
  • He acknowledges and values his Jewish ancestry [4]
  • The article is not confined to observant Jews: "The following is a list of some prominent Jews and people of Jewish origins (not all of them practice, or practiced, the Jewish religion)"

--Brownlee 14:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if you'd read your second link ([5]) – or Sarkozy's wikipedia article – you'd have noticed that his mother was not in fact Jewish: her father was a Greek Jew who converted to Catholicism when he married her French Catholic mother. Sarkozy was not raised Jewish in any way, though he does acknowledge his ancestry, as you say. -Udzu 00:04, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
PS Remember that journalists can be as sloppy as Wikipedia editors. Thus Jewish ancestry can be falsely abbreviated to Jewish. For example, Kelly Osbourne was described as "Jewish" in the Jewish Chronicle, despite only having a Jewish grandfather, publicly saying "I'm not Jewish" on TV, and walking around in a shirt saying "Shikse". -Udzu

There seems to be a violation of WP:NOR here. We have two sources saying his mother was Jewish and none saying explicitly that she wasn't. Maybe both her parents were Jewish converts to Catholicism? Anyway, so long as he acknowledges his ancestry and says that his roots are in the greek Jewish community, do we have any right to exclude him? Kelly Osbourne is an irrelevance here.--Newport 19:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I raised the Kelly Osbourne issue simply to show that unsubstantiated claims of Jewishness can be unreliable even in mainstream sources. Having said that, the current entry seems to be a good compromise. Udzu 20:36, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

What does 'ACKNOWLEDGING ___ ancestry' have to do with anything? If he denies it, but its proven true somehow, would that somehow not making him eligible? This doesn't make sense. African American DNA is 10-15% of European origin. So the ones who acknowledge this as a fact are viable entries for a list of Europeans????? This is a joke. White Supremacist David Duke acknowledges he probably has African American heritage. So would everyone agree he should be put on List of African Americans? How is this any different from what's happening here?

Nicholas Sarkozy born to a Hungarian father and half French/half Greek-Jewish mother: [6]

He isn't even on List of famous Hungarians who were born outside present-day Hungary which would certainly be more viable given he's half Hungarian. Should he be put on List of Greeks too do you think? Did he ever call himself "Jewish" or "Greek" of "Hungarian"???

Tiger Woods is 1/4th Chinese. Can I place him on List of Chinese people? He doesn't deny Chinese heritage.

No responses or counter-arguments? Just reverts?

I don't know who made these unsigned comments. However, it is clear that Sarkozy belongs on this list, which includes "people of Jewish origins (not all of them practice, or practiced, the Jewish religion)". Were this a list of practising Jews, i would agree with his deletion, but it isn't.--Brownlee 14:53, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

When does the limitation to Jewish Origins stop? A person is born Jewish, but does not practice, they can stay on here. But Sarkozy was not born Jewish and neither was his father or EVEN mother. Absolutely farfetched to keep him on here just because down the family line there was a racial Jew. So should we put Russian poet Alexander Pushkin on List of Ethiopians because his great-grandfather was Ethiopian? Should we put Tiger Woods or Keanu Reeves on List of Chinese people because they have acknowledged Chinese origins???? Use logic. This entry is a full-blown joke. I am changing it again.

It is very odd that this editor keeps refusing to sign his/her submissions. Anyway, we are in total agreement. If this list had different criteria, such as being a practising Jew, Sarkozy would be ineligible. He/she says that if the criteria on other lists were appropriate, other people would be eligible for them; I have not looked at these lists, so don't know if he/she is right, but we are only discussing this list.--20.138.246.89 08:50, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

You know what's odder? Why a user with such a long wiki experience, who knows perfectly well how to sign a comment, and who has a rather lengthy list of contributions still doesn't get a username and continuously finishes other user's discussions. That is quite odd. "Of Jewish origins" is a subjective interpretation that can mean anything you would like it to mean (1/16th Jewish descent too?) and can/should be easily changed. On the other hand, more properly documented lists like List of British Jews use a standard that, interestingly enough, many if not all other lists use. This list shall be no different. 141.211.251.69 22:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

This list is what it says it is, and the fact that, uniquely, the List of British Jews has different standards is irrelevant. The consensus of editors is that Sarkozy meets the criteria for this page. Since he is not British, he is unlikely to be put on the List of British Jews so the criteria for that page do not matter. And what relevance is it that the List of British Jews is referenced? This list could easily be referenced to show that everyone on it meets the criteria of this article.
What does "continuously finishes other user's discussions" mean, other than that I agree with every editor of this page except for the above editor?--20.138.246.89 08:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

As a french, i can say that is ridiculous to put sarkozy in the list. Beaucause if so, i can add 1000 personallities more 1/4 jewish ('scuse for my english) 82.226.68.59 09:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

We should certainly put in everyone who asserts and is proud of his Jewish ancestry, as Sarkozy does [7].--20.138.246.89 16:02, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

That begs the question should we put people who are very semitic in culture but not ancestry on here too? This is opening a box of vast options! Especially since being proud of Jewish ancestry has some sort of say in this. 141.211.210.121

[edit] Changing the scope of this list

I cannot see any reason to make a major change to the scope of this list, which would put it out of line with many other similar lists. There is no general Wikipedia policy on ethnic lists, despite more than one attempt to agree on one. However, it is common practice to include people with partial Jewish ancestry, so long as their entry makes clear what their ancestry is. The change to the unique rule on List of British Jews was made after a vote on the talk page of that article, which is obviously not binding on other articles. We should not make such a change here unless and until we have had a similar vote. And if the intention had been to move to the same policy as that list, a similar wording should have been used: "List of French Jews is a list that includes Jewish people from France and its predecessor states."--Newport 21:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

"Of Jewish origins" states nothing of the scope of this list anyway. A "French Jew" is a term that can't be defined by wikipedia users. If this was a list of French people with a Jewish grandfather, Sarkozy would fit. Instead this is a list of French Jews. Therefore, unless somewhere it unflauntingly states Sarkozy is Jewish (and we know he's a French politician), he's not an appropriate entry... :-/ End of story, despite all the hoo-haw by anti-semites and philo-semites to make note of it. 141.211.210.121 17:34, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


Yeah, you are right!!! Peace man!
Unsigned comment added 08:11, 11 October 2006 by user:193.45.244.11

No, this is not right. As has been repeatedly stated, this is not just a list of practising Jews.--20.138.246.89 11:48, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sick classification; someone has heard about fr:André Tulard here?

Being used to Wiki too much, I just want to say it quickly: this list makes me sick, and it probably makes a lot of other Wikipedians sick. Probably a lot of them are French (that's why they stumbled there) and not much less Jewish. To put it clearly: the huge majority of French people do not classify themselves according to religion or ethnicity, and the last time some guy made such a list... well, he was called fr:André Tulard, and this definitely deserved to be translated (for non-French speaking people: André Tulard was in charge of the Direction of Foreign Service and Jewish Affairs at the prefecture of Police before 1940 and after 1940. Although the French state claimed its files were deleted in 1945, they were actually found by some stubborn historians in... the early 1990s ! Fifty years since the French state has retained a list of "its French Jews"... Just in case? What are you Wikipedians innocently doing, trying to be "philo-semitic" or "anti-semitic" as one fellow put up out there? Just... leave it there! Classify your friends, on your personal diaries, if you will — leave strangers alone! Lapaz

I forgot to say the evidence: those files made the Gestapo's work really, really, easy. Most of the people taken away during the Rafle du Vel'd'Hiv in July 1942 wouldn't have been, if it weren't for these... sick classifications. Think about it, boy !Lapaz

[edit] Corrections

Be careful of what corrections are made to the sources of this list. According to the hierarchy of reliable sources the person themselves has the last word on their religion, ethnicity, nationality and so on. Second to that comes family, but priority goes to family publications than just statements. So, under these circumstances, both Balthus, who makes it painfully clear he was not Jewish to many biographers and Eugene Ionesco, who actually never said he was of Jewish descent, doesn't qualify. Anyone who has read Ionesco's autobiographical writings --- one can search them here http://www.amazon.com/Present-Past-Personal-Memoir/dp/0306808358 and these are really really short, it only took me a few hours to read --- knows that there is absolutely no mention of a Jewish mother or any sort of Jewish heritage anywhere in the book, which apparently supports his daughter's claim that the statement of "affirming his Jewish origins" is a lie. Mehmeda 00:51, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Montaigne

I haven't been able to find any source that Michel Eyquem de Montaigne's mother was born a Jew, only that her family had once descended from Jews. This could be said of many Spanish families at the times of the explusions, and who knows how many generations back this conversion may have happened. It doesn't say. Does anybody know? Mehmeda 00:51, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The Encyclopaedia Judaica says explicitly that his mother was Jewish.--Newport 01:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Does it say she was Jewish or "descended from a Jewish family"? A lot of Spaniards are descended from a Jewish family. Many many. Perhaps as much as 10% of the current population had a background where conversion took place. Mehmeda 01:03, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Taubenhaus

Need another reference for Taubenhaus. Mehmeda 01:31, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../l/i/s/Talk%7EList_of_French_Jews_0383.html"