Talk:List of Coalition aircraft losses in Iraq

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- 1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- 2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- 3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- 4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- 5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no

This page has been cited as a source by a media organization. See the 2004 press source article for details. The citation is in: "Report: Fatal chopper crash was pilot error.", Lowell Sun, May 14, 2004.

Contents 1 soviet-afghan war? 2 Problems witth the numbers 3 crashes vs. hard landings 4 Page move 5 references 6 Just a quick question 7 Where are the Mercs?

[edit] soviet-afghan war?

Is the rate higher than in the soviet-afghan war? Check this. It would be good to have List of Soviet aircraft crashes in Afghanistan. Parallels could be made.--TheFEARgod 19:55, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

If you start the article i will help you......But i cant start the article because iam not amember and i cant get membership becuse i log in from different computers.

See new article List of Coalition aircraft crashes in Afghanistan--TheFEARgod 15:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems witth the numbers

Someone have introduced fresh information about new crashes, but have forgotten to add the new stat info in the first paragraph.

[edit] crashes vs. hard landings

The list seems to be inconsistent as to the degree of damage sustained by an aircraft. Photos suggest that some of the incidents resulted in rather limited damage to the aircraft.

To be in accordance with the definition set out in the article, one would need the information in which cases AC was written off. (Still recent gross numbers of US helicopter losses in OIF and OEF would indicate that number of AC written off is even higher than the number of events listed on this site).

[edit] Page move

I suggest moving the page to List of Coalition aircraft losses in Iraq, since "crash" makes it sound like none of them were shot down...or destroyed in a ground fire. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 18:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• I'll the second the name change on this one. The new title would be more appropriate and accurate.--Looper5920 11:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
• the proposed title appears also to me more correct. it might be worth considering to replace IRAQ by OIF as well. m. 02/03/07

[edit] references

the references have become over-abundant. for each incident we should find one or two references which contaim all the information. m. 02/10/07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.95.65.72 (talk) 13:19, 10 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Just a quick question

Is this a complete list, and how often is it updated? As of March 4 2007, Reuters (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/KHA334243.htm) claims that there were 8 helicopters shot down with loss of 28 people, sinsce January 20th, but I only count five shootdowns causeing 11 casuilties in the article. Maxim K 00:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I actually saw that Reuters article myself yesterday, and realised it is "misleading", they are including the Blackwater USA helicopter losses as US military losses, whereas Blackwater is a mercenary organization over there. They also used the term "shot down" even to describe helicopters that "crash-landed due to enemy contact" and such. The problem is on Reuters' end with accuracy, not ours. You'll see the Blackwater helicopter listed at the bottom under "Other", on this article. I'm personally not sure whether we should include non-military events in the main body or not. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 00:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I see, thanks for the clarification. I guess whether or not the Blackwater Helicopters should be included depnds on whether or not they are part of the "Coalition", on one hand they are allied but are not really a state. Maxim K 04:21, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where are the Mercs?

Why are we losing the Blackwater birds & one of the most famous shoot downs the Bulgarian Mi-8.??? ANigg 05:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

CHeck the bottom of the article, non-national losses are listed separately, they're still there :) Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 05:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear Sherucuj: for many years this site was managed by argument and consensus, and we have never had revert-undo know battles. It would be nice if we could keep this tradition.

1. The piece of news claiming that the Kiowa was shot down is not credidbe. First, it never states where this claim comes from, second it appears nowhere else. It must appear thus that its an editing error. (Why dont you ask them and ask for the source of that information?) I could show you many instances of news pieces regarding helis (e.g. from Xinhua) which just mix up dates etc.

2. we could start to list call signs of downed helis, but what is the value of that? why might anyone be interested? m.

Same reason we say the USS Arizona sank, not "a warship", or "Zidane Bukhari, an interior minister of Iran, said...", not "Somebody in Iran's government said..." - no matter how inconsequential the name, if we are referencing the object, we should reference its name. I am not claiming that the Kiowa was shot down - I am pointing out that there are two stories out there, that is more than fair. I am reverting it to include the callsign, and the Xinhua reference - if you wish to remove these "reasonably includable" facts, feel free to open an RfC or poll. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 07:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

As an FYI, this link has the actual pilot of the craft saying that it wasn't a mechanical error, but an electronic one. So we now have four factors to consider, Iraqi news says it shot down, US Army says mechanical failures, pilot says electronic, and witnesses say tangled in wires (which could conceivably still happen after any of the other three). I think this definitely warrants at least mentioning that there's some debate about what exactly caused the helicopter to go down. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 08:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

sherucij: I believe you are making a mess out of this site, but I simply dont have the time to follow all that. congratulations, I leave. m.

Yes, I've added a dozen references, two ((fact)) tags and clarified stories where we before just said "A Black Hawk Helicopter crashed in Baghdad", truly I'm making a terrible mess of the place. Ah well, at least have the dignity to keep your word and remain gone, after trolling :) Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 08:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)