Talk:List of Catholic leaders and politicians

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Contents 1 Adolf Hitler? 2 Giovanni's recurring addition 3 Prune list 4 Added a note

[edit] Adolf Hitler?

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Adolf Hitler was Catholic. Does anyone know? Cotixan 11:32, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

He was born in Braunau am Inn, Austria and according to Wikipedia "Adolf's strict Catholic upbringing was typical for the region. He served as an altar boy and sang in the choir but was not a practicing Catholic as an adult, though in public discourses he continued to frequently claim he was a Christian." // Liftarn 15:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Liftarn. Could you use four tildes instead of three, when you sign? It shows the date as well. (I've added that for you.) Hitler was baptized as a Catholic, but no longer attended Mass as an adult. He also persecuted and martyred Catholics. Either his name should be removed from the list, or it should be modified to say that he was no longer a Catholic. Catholicism is not a question of ethnicity. You can be Jewish even if you completely abandon your Jewish religion. Claiming, out of political motives, to be Christian is not enough to make a former Catholic a Catholic. AnnH ♫ 08:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

There is no evidence that he ever stopped being a Catholic. He stated that he was a Christian. That he did not go to mass may for instance be due to political reasons (to not offend the Protestants) rather than religious so no clear conclusions can be drawn from that. // Liftarn 11:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Liftarn. Throughout his's life, Hitler showed a remarkable tendency toward conservative Christian faith in God, and saw himself as a reformer and a savior of the German people, and he acted according to his beliefs. He called himself a Christian and Catholic, and spoke in admirable terms about Jesus and his faith. At no time did Hitler denounce his own Christianity or Catholicism, and in fact, appealed to Christ as a fighter, just as he saw himself as a fighter. He was baptized, he took the sacraments and received Communion. He was never excommunicated by the Church, who rather supported him in many ways, and Hitler protected the Church in return. All this and more makes him clearly a Catholic. Was he a devout church goer? No. But, many are not. Did he appeal to prayerful priests? No but again not necessary. Christianity does not exist "out there'. It only exists in the minds of certain people who profess a belief in God and Christ. That's why we can only appeal to the direct words from an individual to determine their belief (outside of some rituals particular to Catholics, that Hitler did follow for the most part). And, Hitler expressed his beliefs forcefully and throught his life such as: "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter," "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

Hitler Biographer John Toland in explaining Hitler's reason for exterminating the Jews, states: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, 'I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so,' he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God-- so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty.[Toland, p. 703]

Moreover, there are no known documents, speeches, or proclamations by Hitler where he even comes close to denouncing his belief in Christianity, or Jesus. The Protestant and Catholic Churches in Hitler's time never accused Hitler of apostasy. Hitler's Christianity in Germany was never questioned until years after WWII and then only by Western Christians who are embarrassed to have him as a member of their faith-system. If Hitler had really wished, he could have attacked the Church, but he defended it, infact, he acting to unite the Protestant and Catholic Churches in Germany. He remained a Catholic in good standing officially, according not only to his own words, but also those around him, including Chruch officials, who never once refuted or spoke out against this idea. And so it remained until he died.

Hitler officially held Catholic status, and only opposed political action including of Catholicism, only when it conflicted with the Nazi state. The Catholic Cardinal Faulhaber of Munich visited Hitler at his mountain retreat at Obersalzburg in November 1936. Faulhaber observed: "Without doubt the chancellor lives in faith in God. He recognizes Christianity as the foundation of Western culture.-Cardinal Faulhaber [quoted from Helmreich, p.279] Church hierarchy seemed convinced of Hitler's belief in God and Christianity, which is why Pope Pius XII in 1939 instructed Cardinal Bertram to send a birthday messages to Hitler: "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany" which was added, "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars." These greetings became a tradition and were sent every April 20th. If we cannot take the word of Hitler's own words in his claim of Christianity, or contemporary Christian believers, or bishops, or cardinals or Popes, then what other Christian authority could we possibly turn to?

Yes, Hitler did kill other Christians but did not do so because of their being Christian but because of their political actions against his rule and state. This is an important difference. Hitlers's destructive actions did not prevent other Christians throughout the history of Christianity who murdered, killed, tourtured, etc. from being regarded as Christians. Not only did many prominent Christians perform or condone atrocities, but the established Christian denominations supported wars, inquisitions, and exterminations of other faiths and even sects of their own religion. Adolph Hitler simply acted as one of many along a long line of Christians who used his beliefs as a foundation for his actions, saying his God was on his side.

From the respected biographer, Toland, the fact is that Hitler grew up in the anti-Semitic Austrian/German Catholic culture of his time. A priest baptized him. He got educated in a Catholic monastery under the schooling of Padre Bernhard Groner. On the way to the monastery, Hitler had to pass by a stone arch which had a carved monastery's coat of arms which included a swastika (which some speculate gave him the inspiration for the Nazi cross). He attended the choir. He attended religious services and festivals. An abbot became his idol and he hoped to join the Church as a priest. As a child he used to wear a kitchen apron pretending himself a priest giving sermons. In 1904 Hitler got confirmed at the Linz Cathedral. As he grew older, other Christians influenced him, Catholic and Protestant alike. He always paid his church taxes on time. He remained a member in good standing of the Church of Rome until his death. Although Hitler had a strong Catholic childhood, he did slowly became more Protestant-like as he grew older. He read evangelist literature and he greatly admired Martin Luther (a Jew hater). Many of his actions fulfilled what Luther desired in his book "On the Jews and their lies" (1543). It appears clear from Hitler's own writings that his anti-Semitism came directly from the community of Christians. Giovanni33 12:27, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

There is a lot of evidence that he stopped being Catholic. He stopped attending Mass. He married in a civil ceremony. He persecuted Catholics. His whole practice was contrary to Catholic teaching. And I'm afraid that not wanting to offend Protestants for political reasons (if there's any reason to support that original research) does not excuse a Catholic from the obligation to attend Mass. It suggests that he worried more about offending Protestants than about offending God. If someone leaves the Catholic Church for financial or political gain, he is no longer a Catholic, except according to a minority theological view that might stress the idea of an indelible mark on the soul from baptism, or according to the POV of people who want to show the Church in a bad light. As I've said elsewhere, it would be silly to research the religions that Peter Sutcliffe, Ted Bundy, Roy Whiting, Jesse Timmendequas, Fred West, etc., were baptized into (regardless of whether or not they practiced) and then add them to lists of "famous Presbyterians", "famous Baptists", etc?

Another point, Giovanni33 claims in his edit summary that changing

"(baptized and brought up Catholic; was not a practising Catholic as an adult)"

into

"(baptized and brought up Catholic; was not a fully practising Catholic as an adult by some accounts)"

is "making clarification more NPOV".

Quite apart from the extraordinary claim that that's more NPOV, I don't know how you can justify changing "not a practising Catholic" to "not a fully practising Catholic". The difference between the two is that the "not fully practising Catholic" would go to Mass occasionally, maybe once a month, and would want to be married in Church, whereas the "not practising Catholic" would never go to Mass at all, except perhaps at Christmas or Easter when visiting parents. You have introduced a wording that suggests he was still partly practising. Have you any sources to show that he occasionally went to Mass as an adult? Oh, I know you have sources to show that he called himself a Catholic, but was he such an admirable, trustworthy, truthful person that you can take everything he said at face value? In any case, saying that you are a Catholic does not qualify as "part" of being a practising Catholic. You have deliberately introduced a suggestion that he was partly practising, so I hope you'll be able to back this up with sources.

Secondly, you've put that he was not a fully practising Catholic "by some account", deliberately introducing language that suggests that by other accounts he was a fully practising Catholic. I'm eagerly waiting to see a published source that says that as an adult he went to Mass regularly, received the sacraments, and was married in Church. AnnH ♫ 12:36, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I changed it to make it clear what was meant. It now says, "raised a Catholic, was baptized, took the sacraments and received Communion; later he did not attend mass and in this way was not a fully practising Catholic as an adult." I hope that makes it clear and NPOV.Giovanni33 13:21, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, as I said on your talk page, the "fully" looks a bit ridiculous.[1] Think of this:

went to College, did not attend lectures, failed to submit assignments, did not sit the final exam, and was therefore not in this way a full graduate.

It looks a bit silly, doesn't it. It suggests that he was partly a graduate, or, in Hitler's case, that he was partly practising — maybe going to Mass every couple of weeks, and wanting a Catholic wedding. AnnH ♫ 13:29, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Its a question of the nature of the thing is an "either or" black and white type of thing, like "graduated," or "pregnant" (cant be a little pregnant), or if it something that can exist in degrees, i.e. a Catholic who may be one in many regards but did not attend Mass later in life so in that sense he was not fully or wholly or completely a practicing Catholic. It also is a matter of this particular failure is decisive enough to turn the Catholic switch completely off, or does it only dim the lights so to speak. About his marriage, I think that could be excused because he was in a bunker hiding out as the city was surrounded by the Red Army. It was a last minute, without planning kind of thing, too, and then they committed suicide. In anycase, I removed "fully" as is not needed; it already states in what way he was not a practicing Catholic. So, I removed "fully." Giovanni33 14:03, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Giovanni's recurring addition

Giovanni insists on constantly adding the following (in bold) to Hitler:

(baptized and raised a Catholic, took the sacraments and received Communion; later he did not attend mass and in this way was not a practising Catholic as an adult , but continued to profess to be one his entire life.)

Apart from pushing his pet POV again,

• this is remarkably circumstantial,
• arrogantly introducing new definition for what "practicing Catholic" means
• adding strange statements like "took the sacraments ..." - how often, when ...? - this is part of being raised a Catholic, later he did not
• "continued to profess to be one his entire life" is based on a single statement ("I was and always remain so ..."), which cannot prove this at all. If AH always professed to be a Catholic, we would need a series of trestimonies through his entire life, right up to April 1945 (when his life ended after a non-Catholic marriage to his long-term concubine with a non-Catholic murder of her and himself). Even if we take his "always" statement from the 30s at face value, it cannot support Gio's POV. (self-professed) Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 09:25, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

The "took the sacraments and received Communion" bit is certainly completely unnecessary. If you are brought up as Catholic, you do take the sacraments and receive Communion during that period. It goes without saying and it just clogs up the list to add that. It's like saying that "he was born and his umbilical cord was cut on 20 April 1889." How can you possibly be brought up Catholic and not take the sacraments during that period, unless you're living in a persecuted country with no priests? It sticks out, and it is obviously added to promote a partiular POV.

To say that he "did not attend Mass and in this way was not a practising Catholic" suggests that he was a practising Catholic in some other way. If he wasn't practising, he wasn't practising. And attending Mass is what makes you a practising Catholic. It doesn't make you a devout Catholic or a good Catholic or a sincere Catholic or a nice Catholic, but it is an essential part of makes you a practising Catholic (along with receiving Communion once a year, confessing grave sins once a year, and marrying within the Church (if you are marrying).

• He did not wear clothes, and in this way was not clothed?
• He did not eat, and in this way was not nourished?

It clutters up the article. It's unnecessary. It's very misleading, and it seems to have been put in for the purpose of making it seem that Hitler was a Catholic, which is what Giovanni has tried to do on various articles. It's also, as Str says, an attempt to redefine what "practising Catholic" means. (My guess is that Str1977 used the word spam because Giovanni tries to insert this particular claim into several articles. In fact, his earlier versions were worse.) AnnH ♫ 10:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prune list

I suggest this list be pruned to include only Catholic politicians* who profess Catholicism in their campaigns. Otherwise the list would just turn out enormous. Antidote 23:03, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I suggest this list should be pruned to those Catholics that practise their faith during their time as politicians. However, interest groups think otherwise. With that clause, I second Antidote's suggestion. (self-professed) Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 09:32, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I also advocate removing the section "middle ages" - if taken seriously we could include every king of France, of what came to be Spain, at least most of England, of Scotland, practically all Holy Roman Emperors etc. I also advocate deleting Napoleon. (self-professed) Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 09:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you make an introductory comment on the list to establish the scope of the list. IE select the timeframe or significant events ie Germany had the split at a different time than UK. If people want certain one that fall prior to that maybe limit them to priests, who also where polititians like Richelieu. Agathoclea 09:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

This list is very problematic. Nearly every major politician in Latin American history who wasn't Communist would qualify as Roman Catholic (the only exception I can think of on short notice is Efraín Ríos Montt) but right now the list for Latin America is just a small collection of right-wing dictators, plus Violeta Chamorro. I suspect a POV is behind this. Eb.hoop 02:27, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I've added some names and taken off Duvalier as a sometime excommunicate. I'm thinking almost everyone in the Christian Democrat Party of Chile is Catholic, but I wasn't certain how many I should add.--T. Anthony 05:31, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added a note

The note I added is basically just Wikipedia's guidelines on standalone lists. Hopefully someone can look through and see if any names should be removed according to it.--T. Anthony 09:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)