Talk:List of British idioms

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[edit] Duplication?

how is this article not a duplication of List of British English words not used in American English? What is the point? -- Tarquin 12:39, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Avoiding Wikipedia:USPOV? Is there an article on list of American English words not used in British English?
It seems better to mark inherently Wikipedia:USPOV and Wikipedia:UKPOV articles.
I have understood this article to document peculiarly British phrases or sayings: the other referenced articles are, in the main, restricted to usage of individual words. That's my understanding, anyway.WLD 10:47, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] BBC English

Isn't the description of BBC English as well-pronounced highly POV? I was going to say what it sounds like to me, but to avoid being offensive I'll just say I don't consider it well-pronounced. Trontonian

I changed it, but my definition may be wrong. Not POV, though. Trontonian

[edit] Yorkshire pudding

Yorkshire pudding is scarcely a Britishism. British in origin, but understood elsewhere. Trontonian

[edit] Pigs in blankets

Pigs in blankets (and the singular form pig in a blanket) is not exclusively a Britishism. However, the British interpretation of the term is slightly different from the American interpretation; we can see evidence of this in the article for pigs in blankets. -- Jim Redmond

[edit] Egg warmer

Why are we trying to keep an egg warm? To hatch it or to eat it? Rmhermen 00:47, Sep 16, 2003 (UTC)

I don't fancy hatching out a chick at the dinner table. The idea would be to keep the egg nice and warm between taking it out of the saucepan and actually eating it at the table. Don't get the idea that we all go round with weird little knitted hats for our eggs, though - I haven't seen one of these since I was about five at my granny's house, and I think she was old-fashioned even then. --Pete
Didn't look quite right to me (I'm British). If I didn't know what an egg cosy (or a tea cosy) was it'd look like it was for making a previous cold egg warm, rather than keeping a freshly boiled egg from going luke-warm. sheridan 02:26, 2005 Mar 10 (UTC)

[edit] Got and hospital

What about the diffrence in:

  • "Have you got a baby?" and "Do you have a baby?"
  • "She is in hospital." and "She is hospitalized."

--Philip Baird Shearer 13:59, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Not sure what your question is really, but there's no difference between both expressions i.e. they mean the same thing, it's just a different way of saying them. "Have you got x?" would be heard anywhere in England, although the correct phrase in English would be "Do you have?". The hospital one, "She is in hospital" is current tense "She is hospitalised" sounds a lot most past tense. You'd only really hear "hospitalised" in the past tense and on a news report...it's not that common in normal usage. Orbtastic

[edit] Hit for 6

Directly equivalent to "hit a home run" in American English, surely. --Po8crg 7 July 2005 02:19 (UTC)

Not quite. You might say 'I hit them for 6' to mean you completely beat them/ blew them away.Skittle 11:39, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
In the passive form ("I was hit for six") it can mean that you were in some way stymied, destroyed, utterly beaten, left breathless. --Dweller 10:14, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] flag-pole

What is the basis for claiming "Let's just run it up the flag-pole and see who salutes it, shall we?" as specifically British? It was a common expression in the advertising industry in New York in the 1950s and 1960s. Allan Sherman even used it in a song (a parody of Gilbert and Sullivan's "Modern Major General", about an ad-man rising by similarly irrelevant achievement). -- Jmabel | Talk 03:03, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

It has been pointed out to me that it also appears in the dialogue of Sidney Lumet's 1957 film Twelve Angry Men, so while it may have originated as a British coinage, it looks to be common to both American and British English - I'll remove it. WLD 10:16, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I remember learning this phrase (among others) in English in grade 5 or so, back in the mid-Seventies. We were told it was from the American south; also included, as I recall, was "Let's drop it in the well and see how it splashes". BTW, Wikipedia has an article on it. SigPig 22:32, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "He couldn't find his own way out of a paper bag."

I've always heard this expression as "he couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag," as a reference to how easy it would be tear the bag to get out. Could be just a regional variation though...?

=

I've heard this used in the US (maybe as fight, I can't remember) Is it really UK-specific?

I've heard it in conversation; I've used it myself (I'm Canajun), but I'm not sure where I heard it initially. I've heard it on TV as well, giving it a good shot as being American too. And I heard it as fight, not find. SigPig 22:34, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Likewise, as a Brit I have only ever come across this as 'fight'. David Wigram 12:36 13 May 2006

Contrariwise, as yet another 'Brit', I've only ever heard it as 'find'. Possibly there are two similar phrases here, meaning different things: "He couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag." - i.e. cannot overcome even the feeblest resistance; and "He couldn't find his way out of a paper bag" - i.e. he can even find the most obvious exit, clueless, unable to navigate. WLD 14:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
As another Brit, I concur with WLD: I've only ever heard it as find - for someone who can't find the way or easily gets lost. -- TrevorD 10:43, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
As yet another Brit, I've heard both. I've also heard the less ambiguous "punch" instead of either. --Dweller 10:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Six of one, half dozen of another."

Is used widely in the US with an identical meaning to the UK meaning, and is not "peculiar" to British English.


[edit] "Fuck all"

Used in the UK, but not even understood (other than an invitation to have sex with everyone, perhaps) in the US, seems a classical Britishism. It may not be polite, but everyone in the UK knows it and what it means. And politeness seems not be a criterion for inclusion here.

Carlossuarez46 16:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Disagreed. Heard in the US, I have a Southern association with it though I might just be off. —Casey J. Morris
Also disagreed. The expression "He don't know fuck" is a common vulgarity in the U.S. (the poor grammar is also central to the effect). The addition of "all" would go unnoticed in most parts of the country, and in any case the expression would be understood. Also, the phrase "I've got fuck-all to do" is common in the U.S. I am an American with a British/Irish spouse. -- Gnetwerker 19:29, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I've also heard it as "sweet fuck all", or even as an acronym ("SFA"). BTW, we had a francophone instructor (a warrant officer, as I recall) on a course once; he had a reputation for just missing with his English idioms. He was giving us what-for once, I think because of a substandard inspection, and anyway, he said at one point: "You try to fool me, ha? You think I know fuck-nothing? Well, I tell you, I know fuck-all!" He did not know why his speech didn't have the effect he intended. SigPig 22:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Nowt"

Serious question: Isn't this just a somewhat peculiar pronunciation of the word "naught" (meaning "nothing")? —Casey J. Morris 20:16, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

No, it's a phrase originally only common in certain parts of Yorkshire. Owt is the same, it's not a pronunciation of any word. Owt for nowt = anything for nothing. Orbtastic

The Wikipedia page on Yorkshire dialect and accent considers (as I do) "nowt" and "owt" to simply be regional spellings of "nought" and "ought", no doubt back-formed from the regional pronunciation. -- Gnetwerker 19:37, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

How can it mean ought, when the context is nothing to do with ought? Owt=Anything. Ought=should. They have utterly different meanings. Orbtastic
"Ought" is also an alternative spelling of "aught", an archaic word meaning "one" or "any" (sense of more than none). Citation: "But go, my son, and see if aught be wanting." --Addison, from 1913 Webster's. It is in virtually every dictionary. -- Gnetwerker 23:08, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
BTW, "aught" and "naught" come down basically unchanged from Old English, formed from Anglo-Saxon and Old High German roots. As such they almost certain pre-dated regional Yorkshire usage, and this leads credibility to this etmology. -- Gnetwerker 23:13, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
So use aught then, rather than ought.

So I'm not seeing any compelling evidence that "nowt" is different than "naught" (which at least to my eyes are exact homophones). —Casey J. Morris 22:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

It would appear that the argument is for a distinct regional pronunciation, as well (?) as spelling. I am not defending or promoting this position -- just clarifying what I have interpreted. "nowt" together with "queer as folk" gets 9300 google hits, versus only 450 for "naught", and one supporting "nowt" is on the BBC website, so the regional spelling would seem to have some currency, but I don't know how that affects its appearance on this page. -- Gnetwerker 23:25, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not so knowledgeable about British pronunciaton, I suppose—are "nowt" and "naught" different sounds to British ears? —Casey J. Morris 23:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC) Or, whoops, they're different sounds to me too if I'm paying a modicum of attention. ;mdash;Casey J. Morris 01:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Gnetwerker - I can see where you're coming from, but I just can't imagine anyone from Yorkshire (even back in the day when it was Scandanavians living here) saying naught to even sound remotely like nowt. The same with owt and aught. The emphasis is on the owt sound, which rhymes with oat. Orbtastic 15:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
And I want to be as deferential as possible to local knowledge. The discussion is almost entirely academic, as it doesn't influence the content of the page. However, if the etmology were important, we would have to follow the citations, as on WP there is no original research, and in any case, deriving etmology from pronunciation is almost certain to result in error, as linguistic drift can and is fast and substantial. Best, Gnetwerker 17:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
No worries, the aught thing was completely new to me, so I learnt something. I agree that you can't go on how a word sounds which is why I'm still slightly undecided on it all. So does Nowt stay or not, which I think was the original question? Orbtastic 18:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
If we view the Google results I posted above as dispositive (and I do), I think the regional spelling -- in the context of the full phrase "nowt so queer as folk" -- is the most popular, so I would leave the page as-is. -- Gnetwerker 00:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I wasn't suggesting one was more popular than the other, just illustrating that nowt IS a word used, as is owt. I think the original question was "Is Nowt a word?". We've not really answered, have we? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Orbtastic (talk • contribs) .
I thought it was clear: it is a regional spelling (and pronunciation) of the word "nought". That makes it a word, albeit a non-standard one. -- Gnetwerker 00:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pissing in the wind

I've heard my dad, most certainly not a Briton, say this one. Removing it. —Casey J. Morris 22:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bent as a nine-bob note

The North Americans have a similar idiom, but with different words: "Queer as a three-dollar bill". Sometimes it's rendered as "Phony as...", which then loses the meaning of "homosexual". SigPig 22:43, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other phrases: Canadian, maybe US too?

Canadians share a lot with both the UK and the US when it comes to vocab, phrases, etc. These are phrases from the list that I have heard in Canada, but not necessarily from a Canadian (if it's from TV, it's either an Americanism or it was on "Corner Gas").

  • Gone west. I use it all the time, don't know where I picked it up.
  • He couldn't find his arse with both hands.. I Googled this, substituted the US "ass" for UK "arse" and got 575 hits; using "arse" only got me 306. It appears to have been used by a US congressman [1]; W.E.B. Griffin [2]; Vietnam Veterans Against The War [3]; etc etc. It also has some extensions, such as "find his ass with both hands and a flashlight", "...in three tries", "...without at least five days notice", and my personal favourite, "...and an ass map."
  • He couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery. I heard it in the Army as "Couldn't organize an orgy at a whorehouse." along with other variations.
  • He's two sandwiches short of a picnic. Oh, come on. Two bricks short of a load. Two fries short of a Happy Meal. C'mon, Uncle Sam, aren't these standard in the ol' U.S. of A?
As for "gone west," it makes sense to me as a reference to the Western expansion of the United States too but I've never heard of it. However, I think this page in general has a probem with Britons assuming any idioms they might use are uniquely British. —Casey J. Morris 00:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Nearly all the phases listed here are used in Australia and New Zealand with only a few exceptions.

[edit] 'pear-shaped'

This term is used in American English. Removed it. aliceinlampyland 11:20, 28 March 2006 (UTC).

This may be used in the States, but it is a Britticism. It should go back in.

Quite categorically British as mention in the BBC programme Badderdash and Piffile' and by the OED Put it back on the list.--86.111.169.120 12:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "At the end of the day"

Found in Cambridge Dictionary of Idioms and in Cambridge Dictionary of American Idioms. Perhaps this one would be better moved to List of idioms in the English language. SigPig 10:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sig. The problem is, it's a bloody [sic] Briticism! And it's amazingly recent (1970's or so); it certainly is not a uniquely British idiom, but I believe it's still "peculiar"---in the sense that it sounds "British" to me. I can remember when Americans started to occasionally use it---it has been my favorite whipping boy ever since ;-) Same goes for early on and others---now they're widespread, but they smell like Olde Englande. My point being, what do we mean by British idioms? Idioms that are confined to Britain (or Britain + Australia + New Zealand + anywhere except the U S of A), or idioms that originated in C19 or C20 Britain (and can therefore be regarded as Briticisms)? Up the duff is actually an Australianism, not a Briticism. Most British idioms can't cross the pond, unlike American idioms; at the end of the day, at the end of the day made it through. Hope it was just a one-off (AGAIN!) --JackLumber 22:56, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Update: Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary still regards it as British. Oh, and I got many more... take on your own meaning "alone," for example---although that would belong on the List of words having different meanings in British and American English. JackLumber 12:12, 27 April 2006 (UTC) That being said, Briticisms are most welcome. Only when they are useful, though...
An expression "peculiar" to British English would be unknown in the US - it doesn't matter how recent the idiom entered American English - if it's widely recognized, then it doesn't really belong on this list. I'm taking off a couple - feel free to revert if you feel differently, but some of them are definitely common in America now. 12.208.43.201 16:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm the author of the previous comment. Rarr 17:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute: Shanks's pony(redirect) aka Shanks'_mare

on inserting {{DisputedAssertion}}

Shanks's pony— Dispute is a 'British only' term. Robert A. Heinlein used 'Shanks'_mare' in several novels, and I've personally heard others use it conversationally around the Boy Scouts culture, and indeed, use it myself now and again.

Best regards (from Massachusetts), FrankB 05:03, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard "Shanks' mare" in the UK. Are you suggesting that "Shanks's pony" is UK & "Shanks' mare" is US? If so, surely "Shanks's pony" should be here? TrevorD 10:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I too have never heard "Shanks' mare" in the UK. That said, my edition of the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary lists all of: Shanks' mare; Shanks's mare; Shanks' pony; and Shanks's pony, without saying that any of them are chiefly N.Amer. WLD 14:03, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] At the end of the day (dispute-2)

I'm with the guy that left this imbedded comment: THE PROBLEM is: Should we include ONLY idioms used ONLY in Britain, or also idioms that are perceived or regarded as Briticisms? "at the end of the day" sure is used in the U.S., but it's a Briticism.

Why not include those perceived as Briticisms but add a tag to those also heard in the US? TrevorD 10:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
What's so British about it? Also, on the same note, what in the hell is "up shit creek without a paddle" doing here? —Casey J. Morris 05:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
As a Canadian son of A British mother, I'm usually fairly aware of common Britticisms. While I've head this expression used for years in Central Canada, I've never heard my mother or any other person of British background use it, nor am I aware of any reason to consdider it as being of British origin. I would consider this an Americanism if anything.

[edit] As much use as a {list} (disputed-3)

  • Sorry, can't get of the page without seeing another. I have to wonder at the criteria imposed. Perhaps it's due to 30 years in the USNR — as military warmongers like me read a lot of military and history works — but these need some strong authority to remain.
    • Sorry I don't understand your objection?! - This expression and the various guises are very common. :)Jooler 14:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
As rare as Rocking-horse shit
is another I raise eyebrows at, if anyone's counting. :-)

Best regards again, FrankB 05:21, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry - it's not clear to me why you raise your eyebrows at this. Are you saying it is not a military term? If so, fine, but I'd suggest we might possibly want a contribution from someone associated with the British military. It is certainly a current usage in Britain, along with 'As rare as hen's teeth'. WLD 14:03, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Again, I concur with WLD - it's in use in the UK. -- TrevorD 10:45, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, too. Although any connection I have with the military ended when my Dad left the RAF in about 1946. Perhaps it's originally military slang, that's passed in civvy life? Dweller 13:39, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
This is a very common phrase worthy of inclusion. What is this guy talking about?--86.111.169.120 12:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

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