Talk:List of British flags

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[edit] Regional Flags

Would it be a good idea to divide these between 'historical' and modern inventions? Its just the confusion that things like the BBC created flag of devon cause when put next to some of the rather interesting old flags. (BM) 86.136.230.235

[edit] Proposal to merge into the main Union Jack article

Union Jack is located here: Talk:Union Jack#Merge "List of British flags" into "Union Jack".--Mais oui! 20:10, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Edits of 22:54-55, 15 February 2006

Anyone confused with the edit summary should know that the edit of 22:54 was not a self reversion as it says in the log; I mistook this page for another. Greentubing 09:57, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] dates of flags

does c900 mean the 9th centuary or the 900s —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Euano (talk • contribs). 16:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

- it means "around the year 900" Astrotrain 08:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cross of St. George in Scotland

Should the Cross of St. George (English Flag) be freely flown from any building in Scotland? For the purposes of this discussion it will be assumed that no other flag will be flown with it and the building in question is a public house and the flag shares the wall it is mounted on (without a flag pole) with advertisements for makes of beer.

I think it would be an insult to every Scotsman/woman as well as an insult to the people of England. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.163.69.228 (talk • contribs). 09:40, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Why should it not be? IKEA in Glasgow flies the Sweddish flag for example. And the Scottish National Party in Stornoway flew the English flag on St George's Day. Astrotrain 11:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I refuse to believe that Stornaway flew the St. Georges Cross on it's own without the Union Jack or Saltire being present with it. It is also true to say that St. Georges Day is one of Twenty Three days in the year when it is allowed to fly the Flag of St. George from Government buildings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.163.69.228 (talk • contribs). 09:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

See [1] for pictures, the Saltire does fly alongside though. The Union Flag flies on government buildings on St Georges Day, and the English flag- and only in England. See Flag of the United Kingdom for all flag days. Astrotrain 10:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

As a Briton living in England (I consider myself British first and foremost) I would not be at all bothered to see a Scottish saltire flying from any building in England. As for the flying of the cross of St. George being an "insult" to the Scots, the overly-sensitive attitude of some Scots towards the flying of English flags in Scotland often appears petty.

There is no legal or traditional impediment against flying a British flag (that is to say a flag from or of the island of Britain) anywhere else in Great Britain. Indeed, there is a hotel on Holy Island in Northumbria that flies the flag of Yorkshire!

[edit] A regional flag

It's totally unofficial but I've just uploaded the flag of Buckinghamshire in .png format to use in my own signature. It's not particularly well produced (there's a line down the middle for example) but if anyone feels the need and uploads a better version in .svg format please let me know. -- Francs2000 16:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] British Flag?

Is there a flag for Britain any more? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.164.3.90 (talk • contribs). 17:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flag of the East India Company

==Towards the bottom of the page, the flag of the East India Company is erroneously shown with a St. George's cross in the canton. Since 1707, the Union Flag has been in the canton of this flag.

[edit] Ensign of the Commissioners of the Northern Lights

Is that the correct title? Their website refers to The Commissioners of Northern Lighthouses. --jmb 09:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Broken images

Why do so many of these images show up as broken red links? --Masamage 20:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Saint Patrick's Flag in series?

Template:UKFlags makes up a series of articles with this as the main topic. Should Saint Patrick's Flag be added to that series? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 03:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Please continue this discussion at Talk:Saint Patrick's Flag

[edit] St Patrick's Flag

I'm in favour of keeping St Patrick's Flag in the article, as it's a key component of the Union Flag - basically Northern Ireland's bit. Ireland may no longer be part of the UK, but note that this article is flags of "the United Kingdom and related territories. [emphasis mine]". For the time period clearly stated in the table, Ireland was most certainly a related territory. Indeed, many of the flags of the overseas territories and crown dependancies are no longer - or never were - part of the UK, and should hence be removed under such a strict definition of 'British'. --Scott Wilson 18:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not a national flag- moved to historical section. Astrotrain 18:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Defaced?

In all fairness to those from Ireland isn't it rather rude to say that the flag was "Defaced" with the Irish harp?

No, because that is the correct term for placing a badge or other device over a pre-existing flag design. Another example would be the Australian flag - that is a Blue ensign defaced with a southern cross design. In the context of flags, 'defaced' is not a derogatory term. Martocticvs 18:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BBC

One flag that I can't find anywhere, with a GOOGLE search etc, is the old BBC flag. Modern one is just "BBC" on the flag but I think it was blue with a circle and globe perhaps but a long time since I saw it flying. I will check some more books later but thought it could be a useful one to add to various institutions. --jmb 01:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mercia

The Symbols, Standards, Flags and Banners of Ancient and Modern Nations By George Henry Preble refers to the "golden dragon, standard of Wessex" [2] --jmb 11:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Also The History and Antiquities of Boston: and the villages of Skirbeck,Fishtoft, Freiston,... By Pishey Thompson

"The banner displayed by Ethelbald .... was a golden dragon which became adopted as the flag of Mercia" [3] --jmb 11:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry first reference was Wessex. Was Mercia ruled by Wessex for a time and used their flag during that period? --jmb 12:28, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

This reference is very ambiguous The Encircled Serpent: A Study of Serpent Symbolism in All Countries and Ages By M Oldfield Howey [4] --jmb 12:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Contributor TharkunColl is clearly determined to foist an invented Mercian flag of some sort upon Wikipedia for some obscure reason of his own. His own Talk page indicates he is relentless in pursuing POV with numerous warnings about his conduct, and other users have tried and failed to get rid of this imaginary flag. I'm afraid I have other things to do than pursue revert wars. However, for the record (as Wikipedia is a fact-based online encyclopedia, and it would be on my conscience if anybody was misled by TharkunColl's contribution), there is no evidence from any of the surviving Anglo-Saxon literature or archaeological discoveries of a Mercian flag comprising a white or golden dragon, and none of the standard academic publications or websites on Mercia or vexillology refer to any such flag.

[edit] Ulster Banner

The Ulster Banner is currently used in this article to represent the Flag of Northern Ireland, however, this was the flag which represent the former government of Northern Ireland which ended in the 1970's and is no longer the official flag of Northern Ireland. Should we keep the flag regardless, replace it with another flag or leave it blank until another is introduced? regards--Vintagekits 16:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It is regarded as the de-facto flag in the absence of anything offical- it is noted as unoffical here. It is used by the Irish Football Association, UEFA, the Commonwealth Games etc. Just because the Government of Northern Ireland was abolished in the 1970s did not mean that the flag went out of use- it is clearly used by various bodies as the de-facto flag of Northern Ireland. Astrotrain 17:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The flag is called the Ulster Banner, not the Flag of Northern Ireland, so it is being misrepresented in this article.--Vintagekits 17:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The flag is called "the Flag of Northern Ireland" or "the Northern Ireland flag" or "the Northern Irish flag". So it was not being "misrepresented" in the article before political POV got to it. -- Mal 16:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The de-facto flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag, not the Ulster Banner. The Ulster banner may be used by other non-government organisations in various capacities, but it is not an officially sanctioned flag any longer, and technically should go in the historic flags section. Martocticvs 18:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Partially correct - the Union Flag is the de facto national flag and the "Ulster Banner" is the de facto regional flag. Jonto 19:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Good point Martocticvs, I support it being point in the historical flags section and being replaced with the flag of the NI Assembly if/when it gets up and running.--Vintagekits 18:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It is not a historical flag- you keep ignoring the fact it is currently used as the defacto flag of Northern Ireland by the various sport bodies. The Assembly doesn't even have a flag- and if it did- it would not be a national flag. Astrotrain 20:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It is not recognised or sanctioned as the flag of Northern Ireland by the government of the United Kingdom, and has not been since the 70s - therefore it is an historical flag, regardless of its status with various sporting bodies. Flags of sports organisations do not constitute national flags in the absence of any officially declared flag, regardless of how the flag may have been used in the past. The fact remains that the flag directed to be used on government buildings in Northern Ireland is at all times the Union Flag. To list the Ulster Banner as being NI's national flag because of the aforementioned sporting affiliations is entirely unencyclopædic. Martocticvs 20:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The National sporting bodies use the national flag- the unoffical Flag of Northern Ireland. Clearly this is the flag being used at national sporting events. Witness the proud athletes of Northern Ireland marching behind thier flag at Melbourne in 2006. The UK government has not decided anything on this issue- except that theSecretary of State for NI issued some regulations governing a handful of buildings under his control- if that is what you are referring to. Astrotrain 21:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually the IFA dont use it. But that is immaterial - its a historic flags so should be moved to the historical section and replaced.--Vintagekits 22:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It is clearly not historical if it is still being used for offical events. I would advise you not to let your own POV infulence your editing. Astrotrain 10:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It hasn't been the official flag since the 1970's. It is not used by the government in Northern Ireland nor is it used by the suspend assembly nor will be used by the new assembly that is forthcoming. Therefore it is a historic flag as you have been informed by a number of editors. The consensus thus far is to remove it to the historic section and as Logoistic suggested leave an additional note diverting to the Northern Ireland flag issue page. Stop edit warring and leave it at the consensus position.--Vintagekits 11:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The Assembly doesn't have a flag. The Flag is clearly used in an offical capacity by various international bodies as the defacto flag of Northern Ireland. If people are offended by the flag then tough- Wikipedia is not censored. Many reputable flag sites will list this as the Unoffical Flag of Northern Ireland- there is no reputable source that would agree it is an historical flag. Astrotrain 12:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It is used in the commonwealth games - its is not been used since the 1970's in any legal, official or governmental capacity - therefore it is historic and no matter how much POV pushing can change that.--Vintagekits 12:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It is not historic if you are admitting it is still used, is it? It is de facto. I will post no further comment here as this issue is getting rather long in the tooth. Jonto 19:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

This page is about flags offical use. A lot of flags that are historic are "still used" - but they are still historic flags!--Vintagekits 20:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Vintagekits, the Ulster Banner is a Historical flag, this flag was only used between 1953-72 as an offical flag of the government of Northern Ireland, it has not been officaly used since then. The use of the UB as a symbol by sporting bodies dosent give the flag any offical status even as a de facto flag, to suggest otherwise is POV. --padraig3uk 01:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Current use (as demonstrated by reliable sources) means it cannot be historical (going by the usual defintion of that word). A neutral point of view points out it is unoffical, it is the flag of the former government, is used by unionists, is used by sporting bodies. Astrotrain 11:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Flags.net is not a reliable source - it is a shop and infact as witnessed by a number of editors during this discussion the decription of the Ulster Banner on that site has recently changed. As with other flags its official use has has ended and it is therefore an historic flag.--Vintagekits 11:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Astrotrain, flags.net has this to say about the Ulster Banner: Northern Ireland (unofficial) [3:5] This flag is a banner of the arms of the old Government of Northern Ireland. The flag ceased to be official in 1973, but continues to be used by Unionists. On no account should it be used for official purposes. That clearly supports the arguement that the flag is not offical and should not be used. Why do you keep pointing out its use by some sports bodies, the use by them of any flag or symbol has no bearing on the status of the flag. A NPOV is not protraying the flag as something its not, it should be moved to the Historical flags section.--padraig3uk 12:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The text in the box is correctly referenced to flags.net which states it is the former government flag and is still used today. The references to the international sporting bodies shows the flag is still being used as the Flag of Northern Ireland (unoffical). It is essential for NPOV that you do not remove valid references to reputable sources. Astrotrain 13:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you maybe be missing the point, some sporting bodies use it as the Unofficial Flag of Northern Ireland but that does not make it the especially as others organisations and bodies that represent NI dont not use it as the unofficial flag, just because FIFA and the Commonwealth Games committee use it doesnt mean it is. The current description of the flag in accurate and NPOV and draws attention to the wider issue which is fully discussed on the other page. Secondly flags.net is not a reliable source. regards--Vintagekits 13:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Astrotrain, Flags.net is a commercial site that sells flags, and even at that it states but continues to be used by Unionists you are aware that Unionists and Loyalist parlaimilitaries use the flag to try to intimidate the nationalist community. The Link provided by Vintagekits to the Flag of Northern Ireland covers the dispute and useage of the flag in detail in a NPOV manner.--padraig3uk 13:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Graham Bartram runs the World Flag Database. He is a highly respected vexillologist and is currently Secretary-General for Congresses of FIAV (Fédération internationale des associations vexillologiques). He is also the Chief Vexillologist of the Flag Institute. Your point about intimidation is irrelevant as Wikipedia is not censored. Removal of referenced material to reliable sources is not allowed. Astrotrain 16:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Removal of referenced sources would normaly not be allowed, but in this case Vintagekits replaced it to a wiki article that explains the issue of the Northern Ireland flag in more detail, giving both sides of the dispute and also provides referenced sources, so this is not a issue.--padraig3uk 16:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Then we should just say Flag of Northern Ireland (unoffical) then and restore the reference. You can't just state the former usage part without stating the current usage. Astrotrain 16:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The is no Flag of Northern Ireland - there is an article which explains that, that is why I put the link to that in the text! Flags.net does not superceed British Law!--Vintagekits 16:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

This is an article on OFFICAL FLAGS, the Ulster Banner dosen't come into that category as a National Flag, so reference to its current use by a sports organisation, or extreme Loyalist or Unionist groups is not necessary, all that info is dealt with in the link proved by Vintagekits.--padraig3uk 16:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

It is an article on flags offical and unoffical. And we have a reliable source to back up (the World Flag Database, as well as references to FIFA, UEFA and CGF. Astrotrain 16:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Where in the CG or FIFA page does it state that this is the flag of NI? do you think that Flags.net superceeds British Law on flags? By constantly reverting against consensus you are creating an edit war, please stop.--Vintagekits 16:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The Ulster Banner is not an National Flag, stop trying to promote this flag has something it is not since 1972.--padraig3uk 17:24, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not promoting it- I am using valid and reliable references. Astrotrain 17:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Your using reference to a commercial that states it is not a offical flag and should not be used as such. Here is a reference to another site have you checked this one out [5].--padraig3uk 17:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

No one is saying it is an offical flag- it is an unoffical flag still widely used. The site you reference also backs this up. Astrotrain 17:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Its use by sporting organisations dosent count.--padraig3uk

It is not the unofficial flag it is the flag that is unofficially used to represent NI by CG and FIFA - that does not make it the unofficial flag - also it is not used by the IFA which is the FIFA and UEFA soccer body in NI and additionally it is banned from government buildings. To show it in the fashion that you have proposed in misrepresenting its status. regards--Vintagekits 17:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

It is used as an unoffical flag of Northern Ireland as clearly referenced. Wikipedia relies on whether something can be verified- not original research. I have referenced to reputable sources showing that it is still used. Removal of referenced material to suit a POV is not allowed. Astrotrain 13:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Astrotrain, the Ulster Banner has not been used as a Offical National or sub-Natioanal flag since 1972, 35yrs ago, you wishing it otherwise dosent alter that fact. Your sources show it is used by sports bodies, they don't count, what counts is the Law and rules of the government.--padraig3uk 14:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I havn't stated that it is the offical flag- in fact it was stated as an unoffical flag and referenced accordingly to reputable sources. You have already failed to get it removed from the Northern Ireland page and various other pages. Removal of referenced material to suit a POV is vandalism. Astrotrain 14:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

This article is of Official Flags, the Ulster Banner is not an Offical Flag, it once was one between 1953-1972 that is why it is in the Historical National Flags section, that is fact. Removal of material that is immaterial to the article is not vandalism, repeatly reverting edits to insert POV is but. As for your last comment, that says more about your own bias then anything else, you are the one pushing a POV in this issue.--padraig3uk 14:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It's very difficult to have a discussion if you keep repeating the same comments over and over again. On Wikipedia we work with references to reliable sources, something you have been unable to do. It is clearly not an historical flag since it is still in use! It is an unoffical flag as it is not used by the government, that is why it is stated as the unoffical flag. Astrotrain 14:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that 1. you want to use an unreliable commercial website source as proof, 2. the source doesnt even back up what you are saying and, 3. you want that source to be taken over and above British law.--Vintagekits 14:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It is very difficult when you ignore facts.--padraig3uk 15:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It is very hard to assume good faith, when it has been repeatly pointed out to you that the Ulster Banner is not an Official National Flag, and your source Flags.net makes this very clear.

This flag is a banner of the arms of the old Government of Northern Ireland. The flag ceased to be official in 1973, but continues to be used by Unionists. On no account should it be used for official purposes.

It has also been pointed out to you that the use of flags by sporting bodies dosent confer any legal status on that flag, under British Law the Ulster Banner is not recognised in any legal manner. I don't understand why you keep refering to WP:V and WP:OR their is nobody using OR in this article. --padraig3uk 18:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Astrotrain - I think it's time to "stop feeding the trolls" as they often say on WP. These 2 have had their blatant campaign to impose their political bias on this issue for long enough - you are wasting your time to attempt to rason with them as no amount of reasoning will be likely get them to stop. Jonto 00:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Yourself and Astrotrain are the ones trying to impose a political bias on WP, we are trying to present the facts as they are, so I resent you implying I'm a troll. The Ulster Banner is a historical flag, is not a Offical Flag of Northern Ireland.--padraig3uk 00:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I have also noticed that the political agenda has come back with a vengeance. I'll not name names, but the articles affected are obvious and I believe it to be the tip of the POV iceberg. The article is about British flags. The specific section is regional flags. Northern Ireland is one of the regions, and the flag of Northern Ireland is the only flag that represents the region of Northern Ireland. This 'debate' is pointless, repetitive and part of a political agenda to remove coverage of Northern Ireland and avoid facts simply because some people dont care for those facts. I'll take no further part in this debate unless it has progressed substantially, or until such time as a new flag of Northern Ireland has been created. -- Mal 16:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with some of what you say mal and I would also be happy to see a Flag of Northern Ireland reinstated should one be created by the new assembly.--Vintagekits 17:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with WP:IDONTLIKEIT, this is to do with removing false information and POV from WP articles, nobody is trying to remove coverage of Northern Ireland, just trying to ensure that the coverage of these issues is based on facts, and not the POV of certain users. If you wish to take no further part in this discussion then please refain from reverting edits to the article.-- padraig3uk 17:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Some users are on a campaign to delete the Flag of Northern Ireland from wikipedia, and have now succeeded in doing so here (at least for now). No matter that reliably sourced material was constantly removed to suit a POV agenda and against the consensus of the users on this talk page. It is very difficult to have a reasonable discussion- especially when one editor repeats the same point over and over again; while another just complains he is being abused or insulted if someone disagrees with him. I will see if an admin is willing to look at the issue- it is ridiculous that reliable sources are being removed and replaced with POV and OR. Astrotrain 17:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Astrotrain, Flags.net is a shop and not a reliable source and the information in it didnt even reflect the arguement you were trying to get across, additonally Flags.net does not superceed British law!--Vintagekits 17:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Astrotrain, you accuse people of pushing POV, so could you point out where this is, give an example of where this POV is in the edits made to this article. WP is about presenting facts, concencus dosent apply if the concencus is non-NPOV and ignoring the facts, those promoting the use of the Ulster Banner are pushing as politial agenda that ignores the fact that it is not the Flag of Northern Ireland. I don't want the flag removed from articles I want it protrayed factualy as the former Northern Ireland flag, that has a place as a historical item.--padraig3uk 17:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] British East India Company

The dates for the three British East India Company flags do not seem right. Were they all in use until 1858? --jmb 14:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Astrotrains edit

You have stated that there is POV in the edit can you please explain exactly what yuo mean--Vintagekits 00:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flags incorporating the Union Flag

What about flags incorporating the union flag i.e austrailia nz etc.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.11.195.211 (talk • contribs).

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