Talk:Lingua franca

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Lingua Franca the language belongs in the other page (with the magazine thingy), because it has a capital F. The article here is mostly a dictionary definition too. 218.102.71.16 06:48, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

The statement from the article quoted below reminds me of the old joke, "If we had some ham, we could have some ham and eggs, if we had some eggs."

Despite constructed languages current relatively limited pool of speakers, comparisons between numbers of speakers may not be a reasonable criterion in judging the adequacy of the language itself, given that a preexisting large number of speakers further enforces a language's likelihood of being learned by other speakers. If a constructed language (or language with few speakers) were to be decided upon such as by international agreement to be used as an international auxiliary language, then the imbalance in not having enough speakers would be more readily leveled.

It is a tautological statement, if there were more speakers of constructed languages, there wouldn't be so few speakers, and there would be more if someone would make people speak them. It does not really address the question of whether the idea of constructed languages is a sound one. Ortolan88

Actually, I'm not sure that the statement is a tautology. It sounds to me like it is making the point that there would be more people willing to use a constructed language if everyone would agree on choosing one as the lingua franca. That seems like a debateable point that should not be uttered as a fact in this article, but I don't see it as a tautology. soulpatch

It's badly put, but it should be said that constructed language suffer from a vicious of circle of "too few people speak it, so nobody learns it". -- Tarquin 17:04 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

Go ahead and edit it if you like...I was just trying to point out the existence of that argument. brettz9

Now probably this could be splitted into Lingua Franca (the language) and lingua franca (the concept). -- Error

This theory explains the similarities between most of the European-based pidgins and creoles, like Tok Pisin, Papiamento, Krio, Chinese English Pidgin. These languages use forms similar to sabir for "to know" and piquenho for "children".

What a curious thing. 'To know' in Portuguese is Saber and 'Children' is Pequenos (more exactly, little ones) tought in some port. dialects pequenhos is used and piquenos is widly used (sopken, I say). Pedro 01:32, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I removed this text

adopted as a common means of communication between people of different languages

from the ungrammatical and undecodable definition. I may have gotten it wrong (my dictionary is ambiguous), if only a language widely enough used in this way that it is common for two non-native speakers to use it between themselves qualifies as a l.f. If so, someone please fix, but please don't put back the horrible version i found there.

The previous version of the "General sense" section of the article placed an excessive emphasis on the role and characteristics of English, and seemed strongly associated to the NPOV-disputed page English as a lingua franca for Europe. I toned this down and removed the link to that page. -- Brian Lucas

[edit] Hebrew

I added Hebrew, because I felt that it was important. --Nate3000 01:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

When has Hebrew been used for communication between non-jews? Apus 10:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

In that case, why is Arabic up? Also, the Old Testament is written in Hebrew.(That's communication.) Christians and Muslims subscribe to it to, don't they? Nate3000 09:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Plus Jews aren't a homogenous group, they come from all over the world and speak many different native languages, so saying Hebrew is a Lingua Franca would make sense.Cameron Nedland 14:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Womtelo: Please stop editing without discussing! If you have a problem with the article, write it here. --Nate3000 21:19, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Your claim that Christians and Muslims subscribe to the Old Testament is a bit blunt, this kind of controversial statement has nothing to do here (at least not in the present article). And anyway, even if that were true, the fact that the language it was written in was Hebrew (but also Aramaic and Greek) does not make it a lingua franca: Muslims and Christians all around the world don't use Hebrew as a language of communication! Please be careful when editing Wikipedia, this is an encyclopedia. To conclude, Hebrew is irrelevant to the present article. Best, Womtelo 09:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Old Norse

Halló! Please take a look at Talk:Old Norse language#Latin of the North too. Regards Gangleri 01:08, 2004 Oct 18 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

The article says the plural is linguae francae, implying it is Latin, and then goes on to say that it is Italian. The Italian plural would be lingue franche. So which is it? You can't have it both ways. Chameleon 13:29, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Lingua franca didn't have plurals, did it? -- Error 23:51, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If Swahili is a lingua franca and Urdu is a lingua franca, then you have two of them, don't you? See article. Plural is necessary to discuss the phenomenon. (If, by your question, you mean that Lingua franca – the classic, first version – was uninflected, and that by your lights inflection includes pluralization, then you have a teeeny tiny undocumented point that has no bearing on the issue of whether the term lingua franca has a plural.) Ortolan88 00:41, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think he/she was just making an academic point about a feature of thr original Lingua franca language. Chameleon 09:45, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think the attribution to Italian is incorrect (the singular would be "lingua francese", no?). I'm pretty sure the phrase itself comes from Latin -- the first Western lingua franca.

No, it is Italian. Lingua Francese means French language, Lingua Franca means Frankish language (and the Franks are not the French) Joziboy 14 March 2006, 22:28 (UTC)

[edit] Last edit looks poor to me

The edit by User:221.232.54.69 appears to have some organizational superiority, but has dropped a lot of useful information. I watch this page, but it isn't my specialty. I don't think a simple revert is the answer, but 221.232.54.69 took out all the headers and all the foreign Wikipedia links, so it needs a carefully staged reversion. I'll do it, but one of the more connected editors would probably do a better job. Ortolan88 18:46, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'd go for reversion. -- Error 02:20, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Pre 212.232.54.69 page

[1]:

Lingua franca, literally "Frankish language" in Italian, was originally a mixed language or jargon consisting largely of uninflected Italian plus a vocabulary drawn from Italian, Turkish, Persian, and Arabic and used for communication throughout the Middle East. The term is now applied to any mixed jargon used by speakers of different languages to communicate with one another.

See the two sections below for further details of each of these two uses of the term.

[edit] General sense

The term lingua franca refers generally to a language learned, beyond its native speakers, for international commerce or other extended intercultural interactions. It has acquired this general sense by extension from the specific language described below.

Since there is more than one, various plurals for lingua franca are used by linguists. The Italian plural lingue franche is perhaps most "correct", but, appropriately to the topic, it is also given the Anglicised plural lingua francas and the Latinised form linguae francae is also encountered. The Franks were an ancient Germanic people. The terms Frank and Frankish were used by Arabs for Latin-rite Christians. (Greeks were rumi ("Romans").

In the Western world, Koine Greek, Latin and French have all served as lingua francas at different times. French has been the language of diplomacy in Europe from the seventeenth century, and as a result is still the working language of international institutions and is seen on documents ranging from passports to airmail etiquettes. German served as a lingua franca in portions of Europe during the 19th and 20th centuries, especially in business. English is the current lingua franca of Western international business and is displacing French in diplomacy.

In other regions of the world, other languages perform the function of a lingua franca: Swahili in Eastern Africa, Russian in areas formerly associated with the Soviet Union, Hindi (along with English) in India, Malay in South-East Asia, Bislama in the Pacific Islands, and various Pidgin languages in other locations and times. Portuguese served as lingua franca in Africa and Asia in the 15th and 16th centuries. Mandarin Chinese also serves a function of providing a common spoken language between speakers of different and mutually unintelligible Chinese dialects.

Constructed languages such as Esperanto, Ido, Mondlango, and interlingua are proposed by some as a global lingua franca. Their supporters argue that a lingua franca should be as simple as possible, while still being highly expressive. They claim that English and other natural languages, being ethnically derived, are not suitable for a common language, since natural languages contain caveats and idiosyncracies that hamper their ability to be learned, confer an automatic advantage on native speakers, and are associated with political, economic, and cultural dominance of their nation of origin.

[edit] Specific language

Lingua Franca (Italian meaning "Frankish language") or Sabir ("knowledge") was an early pidgin language, used in the Mediterranean area from the fourteenth century or earlier and still in use in the twentieth century.

It had a heavy influence of Romance languages, especially Italian dialects. It was the language used between slaves and their captors in the bagnio of Algiers.

According to the monogenetic theory of the origin of pidgins pioneered by Hugo Schuchardt, Lingua Franca was known by Mediterranean sailors including the Portuguese. When Portuguese started exploring the seas of Africa, America, Asia and Oceania, they tried to communicate with the natives by mixing a Portuguese-influenced version of Lingua Franca with the local languages. When English or French ships came to compete with the Portuguese, the crew tried to learn this "broken Portuguese". Through a process of relexification, the Lingua Franca and Portuguese wordstock was substituted by the languages of the peoples in contact.

This theory explains the similarities between most of the European-based pidgins and creole languagess, like Tok Pisin, Papiamento, Sranang Tongo, Krio, Chinese English Pidgin. These languages use forms similar to sabir for "to know" and piquenho for "children".

Lingua Franca left traces in today's Algerian slang and Polari. Polari from Italian parlare ("to talk") was a cant used by London variety artists and gays.

English words like "savvy" (from sabir) and "pickanniny" can be traced to Lingua Franca.

[edit] edited into sections and subsections

I have tried to take the existing text of the article, and combine it into some kind of coherent format. I think that the flow of the text is not yet good enough, and recommend you consider re-writing any parts that seem awkward to you. Tom Lougheed 21:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talk page redirect

Is there any good reason why Talk:Lingua Franca is redirected here? Lingua Franca should have its own talk page (or else (more sensibly in my opinion) be moved to Lingua Franca (magazine) to eliminate confusion). Hairy Dude 03:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Deleted redirect.--Commander Keane 05:32, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Latin vs Italian

Why do parts of the article say that the name comes from Latin and later on say that it comes from Italian? It's definitely Italian. Joziboy 15 March 2006, 14:41 (UTC)

Say what? It's Latin because the plurals are Linguae Francae, not Lingue Franche as in Italian.Cameron Nedland 14:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why is Arabic missing?

Arabic has been used for centuries as a lingua franca and now it doesn't even appear on the list. Many ancient scientific books have been translated to Arabic while their originals have disappeared. Many people from the Occident learned Arabic to understand those books and bring that knowledge back to home.

Yes, I was about to ask about this as well. I'll add it, along with Persian,--Ķĩřβȳ Ťįɱé Ø 16:36, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

What's your source? --Nate3000 01:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] French has NEVER been the sole official language in the European Community.

I was appalled when I read the following statements in the 'Lingua franca' article:

"For many years, until the accession of Austria, Finland and Sweden, French was the sole official language of the European Economic Community". ... ... "A landmark recognition of the dominance of English came in 1995 when, on the accession of Austria, Finland and Sweden, English joined French as one of the official languages of the European Union".

This is totally unfundamented and simply ridiculous. The official languages of each individual country are (and have always been) official in the EU as well. This includes, of course, spanish, german, dutch, english, maltese... you name it. The only exception are those languages that are only 'partially' official, so to speak. An example: galician, basque and catalan are official in their corresponding regions in Spain, but not in all the country, and therefore not in the EU. I think that frysk is official in Friesland, but not in all the Netherlands, and therefore not in the EU, and so on.

All documents must be translated to each and every language, period. However, not all languages can be used while official matters are being discussed in real time. But english, german AND french have always been used as 'working languages', ever since what we now know as the EU was first founded in the fifties.

Please correct those silly and unfundamented remarks.

[edit] Music?

Something needs to be added here about the fact that Italian is considered the lingua franca of music, or at least was until the twentieth century.

[edit] Is this correct etymology?

The term "lingua franca" was originally used by Arabs to name all Romance languages, and especially Italian (Arabs used to name Franks all peoples in Western Europe). Then, it meant a language with a Romance lexicon (most of words derived from Italian and Spanish) and a very simple grammar, that till the end of XIX century was used by mariners in the Mediterranean Sea, particularly in Middle East and Northern Africa.

I really doubt this is the case. Lingua Franca is not even arabic. I thought it refered to Norman French after the battle of hastings. Could anyone verify this?--Ccosta 07:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if either of you are right, but Arabs did call all Europeans Franks in the Middle Ages. This entire article is crap methinks and needs some sources and not just chauvinistic pride.

[edit] EU

I'm not sure the mention of English becoming an working language of the EU in the mid 1990s is correct. English became an official EEC language with the UK's accession in 1973 (see [2]). --Peter Robinett 13:50, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish as language of diplomacy

Spanish replaced Latin as the language of diplomacy and (in some aspects) culture during the 16th and early 17th centuries, when it was replaced by French.

Is this accurate? Spain was certainly the strongest kingdom during this time, but I had not heard of its language being the diplomatic lingua franca. In fact, my understanding is that under Charles V, who was king of Spain from 1516-1556, Spanish was not necessarily the language of the court (though it was for Phillip II). 69.241.235.253 02:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Native American Sign Language

Many groups of Native Americans used more-or-less the same sign language to bridge the language gap before the Europeans arrived. Would that count?Cameron Nedland 01:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Polish as L. F. ?

I wouldn't want to be judgemental and I am no linguist, just a Central European with some local knowledge, but for me listing Polish alongside Latin, French, English or German as a lingua franca is an overstatement. Almost any language can have that role locally, I have heared chinese and arab traders using Hungarian (at a Budapest open-air market) as means of communication, but I would hesitate listing Hungarian here. varbal 23:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Poland probably was a lingua franca simply due to the fact that it had a huge empire at one time.Cameron Nedland 01:50, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] needs more work

English is a lingua franca of professionals a lot of East Asian countries eg Hong Kong, Malaysia, Thailand.

[edit] Sabir

There is a section named "Sabir and Italian", but nowhere in the article is it explained what "Sabir" is. --Cotoco 02:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portuguese

It says:
When the Portuguese started exploring the seas of Africa, America, Asia and Oceania, they tried to communicate with the natives by mixing a Portuguese-influenced version of Lingua Franca with the local languages.
Now, what does it mean to mix a Portuguese-influenced version of Lingua Franca with the local languages? It means there was a Language, Lingua Franca, influenced by Portuguese, that was mixed with local languages. I think it needs some explanation or rephrasing for clarification. Thanks. --Ben ^T/_C 10:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article did not answer my question

I came to this page because I wanted to know what "lingua franca" meant literally and what language it was from. This article did not answer my questions and I had to go elsewhere. I immediately found the answer in the next reference I tried.

I would edit the page, but I don't have time right now to read all the editing conventions, style guides and such. I thought I would at least leave this whiny note.

Oh, it is in Latin, and it means "Frankish Language." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.153.252.201 (talk) 22:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

'Franca' apparently has some connections with the germanic tribe according to some sources. But the term has acquired a different meaning in latin languages. In Portuguese, for example, free entrance would be said "entrada franca". 'Franca', in this case, means "no limits" or "under no conditions". It could also imply "duty-free" or even "frank" ( for, who says whatever comes to his mind has "no restrictions"). So, "Lingua Franca" would be a language that could be used in diferent regions and with different people without the limitations of other languages. Perhaps, there is a historical explanation for the meaning that goes back to Franks, but I lack information about it.

[edit] Tupi

I corrected some imprecise information concerning the use of Tupi as Lingua Franca in Brazil. When I tried to add a citation and a reference, all the previous ones disappeared as well as the redirections to pages in other languages. Fortunately, changes were recorded. Could someone fix that up? I'm new here and not quite used to the procedures. Sorry, for the inconvenience.

This section needs more sources, especially with regards to the Jesuit influence. A whole article on it would be nice.201.21.96.49 16:22, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TAMIL?

Tamil

   Further information: Tamil language

Tamil is commonly spoken in Tamil Nadu, India. It is also used by Tamil populations in Sri Lanka, Singapore, Malaysia, South Africa, Mauritius, Fiji, United Kingdom and United States.

This doesn't make it a Lingua Franca, it's not used by NON-Tamil populations to speak to one another is it? I'm deleting this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.21.96.49 (talk) 16:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Persian

It's interesting that the Persian language is not mentioned in this article. Persian is, along with Arabic, the most influential language of the Islamic world and was for centuries the lingua franca of South- and West-Asia. As the leading language of the Persian Empires, it became a literary and scientific language in pre-Islamic times, and then again replaced Arabic as the main language of the Eastern Islamic lands when the Ghaznavids and Seljuqs came to power. Persian had extensive influence on Turkic languages (most of all Azeri, Ottoman Turkish, and Chaghatay/Uzbek) and on the Indo-Aryan languages of Northern India, most of all on Urdu. It was the official language of the Samanid, Ghaznavid, Ghorid, Seljuq, Timurid, Safavid, and Mughal courts and dominated the intellectual society of the Islamic world for more than a 1000 years. It gave birth to master pieces of literature, inclduing The Book of One Thousand and One Nights, Gulistan, Mathnawi, and Shahnameh, as well as to some of the most influential poets in history, including Hafiz, Rumi, Saadi, and Muhammad Iqbal. Tājik 16:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed

Lingua franca is Latin (Medieval? Classical? I don't know.) for "Frankish Tongue"; it isn't Arabic. So the bit that says that the term Lingua franca was first used by Arabs needs to be corrected. --Kjoonlee 17:17, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

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