Talk:Liechtenstein

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[edit] Original research and potential Winter Olympics bids

Interesting stuff in the article, but much appears to be orginal research or at least in need of citations. For example, is there any documentation that the Principality is making a bid for future Winter Olympics--or even that it has a number of good football players in the Swiss leagues? 207.69.139.160 15:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Smallest countries

Where LS is listed as one of the smallest countries, shouldn't Sealand be on that list? Thus pushing LS back one.

[edit] EU membership

The article states that Liechtenstein has been a member of the EU since 1995. However, I can find no evidence that they are actually a member of the EU. According to the EU website they are not a member. http://europa.eu/abc/european_countries/eu_members/index_en.htm

[edit] Taxation

It is stated in the article that the maximum corporate taxation is 18, but later states that corporate taxation can be between something and 20. Can someone verify this please.

[edit] General Formatting

I thought we were still trying to hack out a general format for country articles over at talk:Netherlands? --maveric149

Yes, that's right. However, I find it hard to see any problems with that page, having edited it myself a number of times. What usually helps for me is editing a similar thing, which may help me to find some problems or additions for the template. So I chose this article to work on, and put in a temp subpage, such that others could see it as well (could have done it on my HD as well, agreed).--jheijmans

That's fine -- I also have found this to be rather useful with the elements articles. The template has evolved quite a bit since the original one and I am starting to feel very good about it. --maveric149

[edit] Right to Vote

Question about the wording of the paragraph:

In a referendum on July 1, 1984, male voters granted women the right to vote in national (but not local) elections—a victory for Prince Hans Adam.

This is ambigious and could mean that the right to vote for woman was a victory for Prince Hans Adam or the fact that they didn't didn't get the right to vote at the local level was a victory for Prince Hans Adam.--enceladus 03:19, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

In a referendum on July 1, 1984, male voters granted women the right to vote in national elections—a victory for Prince Hans Adam's position. This right, however, does not extend to local elections.

Better? - Nunh-huh 03:22, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sounds better. I wasn't willing to change it as I wasn't sure which of the two it was.--enceladus 03:23, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Liechtenstein did not become sovereign in 1806. The dissolution of the Empire is not the beginning of sovereignty. The renaming of the orginal unmittelbare estates of Schellenburg and Vaduz "Liechtenstein" is when a sovereign Liechtenstein comes into existence, and even before that the constituent parts were sovereign.

The empire was a Feudal polity comprised of hundreds of sovereignties. Carrying out feudal obligations constituted recognition of Suzeranity. Suzeranity and Sovereignty are not the same thing. Even before the abdication of the Emperor, the prince of liechtenstein had Landesherrlichheit and Landeshoheit "Lordliness on Land" and "Sovereinty on Land", thereby the geo-political entity Liechtenstein was sovereign.

You are mistaking the Empire for something it wasn't. It was basically a political corporation with Emperor as chairman/president. Not like ancient china and rome and egypt where the leader ruled considering himself a god.

"Double landlocked" is not a real word, even if it almost captures a concept we dont have a word for.

I believe "double landlocked" is explained in the article (and elsewhere) as having all of its neigbors also landlocked. You would have to travel into or through at least two other countries to get to a coastline. 207.69.139.160 15:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the history page might (or might not) do well to mention all the territory seized from the House of LIechtenstein in Czechoslovakia after world war one, and the fact that for decades, Liechtenstein citiens werent even allowed to enter that country. Also, the lawsuit by the current Prince concerning the tresures and land. I dont know, its up to you.

At least, it should be explained that the House of Liechtenstein bought Schellenburg and Vaduz ONLY to be admitted as a voting member of the Imperial diet - You couldnt have a vote if you didnt own "soverein" land. (thats why the family never stepped foot in the principality for like many decades after they bought it).

Tridesch

[edit] Liechtenstein family - origins and Moravian land holdings

If the family, as stated, originated in Silesia, I am hardpressed to explain the existence of Schloss Liechtenstein by Vienna since the 11th or 12th century. Additionally, I am certain that the family maintained at least its possessions in southern Moravia (Lednice(Eisgrub and Valtice/Feldsberg) until 1945.

The castle you mention here is in the Vienna Woods and is still owned by the Royal Family who reside in Vaduz. Whilst that family also held personal possessions in the Austro-Hungarian Empire they were just that, personal, as opposed to State (Liechtenstein). As is well-known the Communists confiscated virtually all private property in Czechoslovakia and Hungary. One decree I read said everything over an acre. Christchurch 14:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The liechtenstein family did originate in Silesia and did also have possessions beyond it in Moravia and Austria and elsewhere wihin the empire too. I think its expansion was just very rapid. The article already agrees with you insofar as the 1945 thing.

Evidence please. Christchurch 14:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The Liechteinstein family originated in Lower Austria. Their original castle is said to be Burg Liechteinstein in Maria Enzersdorf south of Vienna. Martg76 18:53, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes. See my comment, above. Christchurch 14:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board

This new notice board might be of interest to editors here. You can help with our current projects or ask for help with yours, and ask any related question on our talk page. Hope to see you there, Kusma (討論) 15:21, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Community Graphic is WRONG

Hi all

The graphic describing the communities describes the "Oberland" and the "Unterland" wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Liechtenstein.geohive.gif It is just the other way round.

See Art. 2 of the Community Act (Gemeindegesetz), which is on-line availiable on www.recht.li:

"Das Fürstentum Liechtenstein umfasst die Gemeinden Vaduz, Balzers, Planken, Schaan, Triesen und Triesenberg in der Landschaft Vaduz (Oberland) und Eschen, Gamprin, Mauren, Ruggell und Schellenberg in der Landschaft Schellenberg (Unterland)."

Otherwise, the graphic is fine.

NicReithner

[edit] Disputed Land

Liechtenstein has disputed land within Czech and Poland. In Czech the land was declared German in WWII, but after the war it was never returned to liectenstein. As well, in Poland the polish government refuses to acknowledge liechtensteins claim. PLEASE IF YOU KNOW ANYTHING ON THE ISSUE PLEASE ADD. -- GPriest.

Czechoslavakia & Poland are nowhere near Liechtenstein! Suggest you look at a map. Unless, of course, you are speaking about the personal property of the Royal Family. Christchurch 13:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] german?

"It is the only country with a majority of German-speaking people that does not share a border with Germany (though there are substantial German-speaking minorities in Argentina, Brazil, Chile and Namibia)."

Thats pretty pointless. It suggests that people who speak German also have to come from today (!)Germany - like they emigrated to Liechtenstein, Austria, and Switzerland??? In fact, people there already spoke "German" before a Federated German state was formed. --84.159.142.76 16:28, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GDP per capita correct?

in the statistics listed on the right liechtenstein is listed as having the 26th highest GDP per capita at 25,000 however it does not appear on the GDP per capita list, are we sure this figure is correct? i am going to post in the GDP per capita page and request that it be added if it is correct, just need some confirmation --Arakash 06:56, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Currently the infobox reads that Liechtenstein's GDP (PPP) is listed as $2,850million (2006 estimate) but doesn't give a rank. The infobox is messed up because of this. Trying to rectify this, I clicked around wikipedia, specifically to

• List of countries by GDP (PPP) - Only the CIA world factbook would give me data, and this was $1,786 million.
• List of countries by GDP (PPP), 2006 - Specifically says that there is no 2006 data for Liechtenstein, and offers the IMF's 2004 data, $825 million.

This is rather confusing. Can anyone clarify this situation and provide a correct rank? (both net and per capita) I don't want to accidently halve the economy of a sovereign nation without a good reason. LukeSurl 13:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Main article..."

Either use the tag or inset it. Skinnyweed 02:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation ??

How do you pronounce the name of the country?? -Natrajdr 20:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I always say it "Litch-en-stein". LukeSurl 13:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

It is pronounced 'Lickt-en-schtein'. Christchurch 14:07, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted section

I deleted the following section from the article, because it sounds like a hoax and is written in bad English:

Entertainment - Al Walser

Al Walser is Liechtenstein`s first and only worldwide entertainment export. Also known as " The voice of the Principality of Liechtenstein " - Radio Liechtenstein. First half black citizen ever with legendary Grandfathers, Counseler Dr. Werner Walser and legendary musician Franco. Also former drivng force behind the Pop sensation Fun Factory.

http://www.alwalser.com/ webpage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRIf4dAqSzY Video Bio

Mr Walser does seem to exist however, as a quick Google search reveals (and his grandfather seems to be consul, in case anyone wonders). If anyone thinks the info should be in the article, go nuts. Blur4760 00:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Democracy?

I would not describe a political system where a non-elected Prince has arbitrer powers over all government activities as democratic. Many countries that are not described as democracies are in effect more democratic than Liechtenstein is. 84.90.18.136 16:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Liechtenstein Military Defense and Obligations of Switzerland and/or Austria

I've shifted the contents of Military of Liechtenstein and Foreign relations of Liechtenstein onto this page, because they were just a waste of a click. The latter could potentially have a bit more, but in that case someone can always move it back to its own page later. - IMSoP 22:25, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

On the defence of Liechtenstein. Well, I am not registered with the wikipedia, however, I am Swiss, I am a lawyer and I am very, very puzzled as to since when are we responsible for Liechtenstein's defence? I am certain that no defence agreements exist. Please refer to page for a list of various treaties signed between Liechtenstein and Switzerland. Nothing on collective security. As such, please, alleaviate my doubts and show me the document that proves that Switzerland is indeed responsible for the defence of its tiny neighbour. Yours, ~Michael

• Hi Michael. It appears that there is a conflict of authorities here. It is very likely that your information and conclusion are correct, however I did find this information (Link) on the CIA World Factbook, which states that the defense of Liechtenstein is the responsibility of Switzerland. I can't rectify these two positions, as the CIA World Factbook is a recognized authority, and your citation does seem to be authoritative. Is there an official military organization for Liechtenstein, such as a civilian auxiliary or a reserve force? Is there any official Swiss documents that indicate they acknowledge or dispute military responsibility for the defense of Liechtenstein? Streltzer 20:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
• I also found this link on the official English-language Liechtenstein website (Link) which seems to indicate that Liechtenstein has some military and quasi-military forces or personnel, probably a border guard force. For other events, such as natural disasters, Liechtenstein appears to have mutual-aid treaties with both Austria and Switzerland. However, it is clear that none of this constitutes a military defense obligation. So the question is still unanswered. Streltzer 21:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
  • The CIA Factbook is wrong on this particular subject, I assert it in all clear conscience. I have, furthermore, never heard that the CIA World Factbook is authoritative (it is compiled by a national intelligence agency). To delve deeper on the subject of authority, I have picked up various mistakes (some of which concern Switzerland and which I can gladly list) in the World Factbook. To return to your question, there are no Swiss government documents on defense of Liechtenstein, because no treaty was ever signed. Liechtenstein has no military and it has adopted a policy of internationally recognised neutrality similar to the Swiss one, a neutrality which has been formally recognised in the course of World War 2. As such, as weird as it may sound, Liechtenstein is not defended by anyone. ~Michael, message left on 04/08/07
    • Michael, I certainly agree the CIA factbook is not authoritative, but it is by far not the only government sponsored source asserting that Switzerland is responsible for Liechtenstein's defence: The European Commission's webpage: Among the areas where Liechtenstein relies on Switzerland are currency, defence and certain regulatory functions, e.g. in the area of civil aviation. The UK Foreign and Commonwealth office's webpage: Liechtenstein does not have an army and Switzerland has responsibility for its defence. Foreign affairs and International Trade Canada's webpage: Liechtenstein's defence is the responsibility of Switzerland. etc. You can find more sources if you Google liechtenstein defence. I would tend to believe that access to several non authoritative sources is still better than no sources at all. If you are so convinced by the (indeed weird) claim that Liechtenstein is not defended by anyone, please back it up with some source that explicitly makes that statement. The fact that you couldn't find the mention of any defence treaty on Liechtenstein's official bilateral relation page doesn't mean there is none. This page may not contain the comprehensive list of all treaties and agreements in application. Indeed, the News section of the same website contains references to agreements, e.g., the agreement for mutual assistance in disasters mentioned by Streltzer, which are not present on the bilateral relations page. This seems to suggest that the latter is not representative of all agreements/treaties/etc between Switzerland and Liechtenstein. Gb1291 20:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I deleted the statement about Switzerland accidentally invading the country in 2007. A few troops marched across an unmarked border during a training exercise with no ammo and, more importantly, no intentions. The statement is sensationalized "news" (I use that term loosely), and adds no substance to the article.

[edit] Ridiculous claim

"but also it is the only German-speaking country besides Luxembourg and Belgium to have a Royal head of state."

How a ridiculous claim is this - How many German speaking countries are there!??? Its a completely throwaway piece of trivia not really worth noting in the headline of a country (however, yes maybe at the end for some bits of trivia) Chrisp7 22:40, 03 Mar 2007 (GMT)

[edit] Double Land-Locked

I'd like to add to this point that the expression "double-landlocked" is eccentric, and not entirely helpful. It is simpler to say it is landlocked. However, if the insistence is on this eccentric term, then a correction is needed in the article. It is stated that Liechtenstein is only one of two countries to be doubly landlocked. The other named country is Uzbekistan. Unless my atlas is mistaken I understand that Andorra is also "doubly" landlocked between Spain and France. -- philjohnson

I took out "double-landlocked" again. I cant believe you feel the need to add it in at top and also have it deeper in the text as well. You are threatening the near-perfection of the article. Please see below from the last time I removed the first paragraph trivia.

-- tridesch

"double-landlocked" is not a real word. The fact is, even if you stretch things and make it one, adding it to the top of the article is ridiculous. Think about it - that liechtenstein is "doubly landlocked" is a really only a statement about the geography of liechtenstein's neighboring states. - what doesit have to do with liechtenstein? what effect does it have on liechtenstein, the fact that Austria and Switzerland are landlocked? THis doesnt belong at the top of the article, and really doesnt belong ANYWHERE in the article not clearly labeled as trivia.

--tridesch

--- I think that Double Landlocked is a useful bit of Trivia. The difference between Andora and Liechtenstein is that France connects to the ocean as does Spain. I think that it should remain in there. The fact that this term only relates to 2 countries in the world may be the reason why it's not in common use!

--James Bartosik, 23/11/06

--- Please don't edit back in "lost their case", this is an extremly unscholarly idiom to use in the referendum circumstance. "Looking northbound" caption for the picture doesn't make sense. We don't really "look" anywhere "bound". I let the doubly-landlocked definition stay, but deleted several sentences about usbekistan and some other central asian landlock examples. It was too much of a digression.

---

tridesch ---

What does "double landlocked" mean? RickK 04:12, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It means it is landlocked and it is also surrounded by landlocked countries (in this case Austria and Switzerland). Adam Bishop 04:14, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Location maps available for infoboxes of European countries

[edit] Swiss "invasion"

On 28 February 2007, Swiss armed forces unwittingly invaded Liechtenstein after they got lost on a training exercise. Although the company commander ordered an immediate retreat on discovery of the error, it nevertheless caused a huge amount of embarrassment for the Swiss government, who the previous week had been saying how efficient its armed forces were. (emphasis added)

Sensationalist paragraph, so I reworded. Merriam-Webster has two definition for "invasion". In one, invasion is intended "for conquest or plunder", and in the other, it is "hurtful". Clearly, none of them apply. "Huge amount of embarrassment" is exaggerated, since both governments downplayed the incident. How would it be otherwise, if we take into account that Switzerland is responsible for Liechtenstein's defense? (Liechtenstein doesn't have an army) Gb1291 06:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I don't even know what this paragraph is doing in the History section in the first place. Who is going to remember this incident in 10 or 20 years? Could the author tell us a bit about its historic significance? S/he should probably put it in some kind of Trivia section. Gb1291 06:19, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Switzerland is not responsible for Liechtenstein's defence. Please see my observations on this particular point in the relevant section of the present discussion page. ~Michael, message left on 04/08/07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.203.150.113 (talk) 09:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

Switzerland is not responsible for Liechtenstein's defence. Michael, while this might be true, you probably shouldn't make a claim that contradicts several recognized online sources without some caution. Strong emphasis will not make your claim more true. You can find my reaction to your observations in that other section. Gb1291 21:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

"it is the only example of aggression from either European country in modern history." Spain was "invaded" in a similar way from british troops stationed in Gibraltar some months ago (a year?), that means the statement is false. Although in my opinion, this fact is simply not an aggression. Sdnegel 18:04, 6 march 2007 (UTC1)

Anywaysd what do you have in Liechtenstein to take, land? I mean come on nobody needs to guard that little thing that should just become another city of Germany or switzerland. MArch 21, 2007

[edit] Useless Trivia

Cedrick Von Haussen is the Wrestling Champion of Liechtenstein? Is this a joke? For starters no such person by this name exists? He is actually a developmental wrestler named Johnny Gargano. This piece of useless information has no bearing or it should be corrected that Gargano was playing a native of Liechtenstein.