Talk:Liberalism

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Contents

[edit] This statement is false

In the intro it states "It (contemporary liberalism) seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on power, especially of government and religion". Contemporary liberalism or Modern liberalism distinctly calls for more government intervention - not less. This is just plain false. Doctors without suspenders 00:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I also think the "contemporary" part is a little bit weird in this context. That statement describes both liberalism now and liberalism a long time ago, so the distinction is not necessary. On the other hand, it does say "broadly speaking." Ideologically, modern liberalism still borrows heavily from the classical variety....the statement is not false; it just probably needs clarification and a realization that the situation is a tad complex.UberCryxic 00:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Additionally, we should mention that modern liberalism does not call for greater government intervention for the sake of government intervention. There were many stimulii that prompted liberals to call for greater state action, among them the rise of communist ideology, World War I, and the Great Depression. Simply because they started doing so under these conditions, however, does not mean that they apostatized their original intentions and beliefs. It simply means that those ideals had to be rethought and reworked in new contexts. In that sense the statement is fine.UberCryxic 00:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
UberCryxic, thanks for your input, and no offense, but I don't know what the heck you just said. Let's just look at this straight on. Either a statement evaluates true or it evaluates false. That statement simply evaluates false. It's not a judgement on more government intervention and there's no need to defend or attack it here. The statement is just not true. Doctors without suspenders 03:55, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The most appropriate thing to do would be to get feedback on how the term 'contemporary liberalism' is being used here. It could be that it does not square well with what you and I are thinking. I am not certain about that "either true or false" criteria (it seems quite ridiculous on account of not enough effort being devoted to defining the terms), but if we were to take that stance, then the statement would go to true under my evaluation. I explained why above. The conditions that forced liberals to examine the mechanisms of their societies does not mean that liberals lost track of some of the most fundamental aspects of their ideology. Limitations on the power of government is still a central liberal tenet, but it may exist under a different context in our world. This is what's probably causing the confusion. But there are still some aspects of classical and modern liberalism that match up quite nicely with regard to the limits of government power; one of them would be respect for constitutional states and societies. This is a defining feature of political liberalism and it has not changed in the modern world. In that sense, one can see how 'contemporary' liberalism holds that government should not have too much power: constitutions were, and are by definition, meant to regularize, standardize, and sometimes restrict what states can and cannot do in relation to the people that they govern. The statement is more than appropriate.UberCryxic 04:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

That's all fine if you're into revising reality. Classical liberals called for as little government intervention as possible - modern liberals like lots of intervention. Sorry, it's a well-known fact. Doctors without suspenders 04:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

It's disparaging to say they "like lots of intervention." This confuses intent with expediency and circumstance. Socioeconomic and political situations in modern times have made it expedient for liberals to modify the roles they are willing to accord to government, that's the well known fact, but that does not mean that they like doing that, at least generally speaking.UberCryxic 04:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry - I don't understand what all that means. All I am interested in here is fact. It also contradicts the statement in the following paragraph: "Many modern liberals advocate a greater degree of government interference in the free market..." Doctors without suspenders 04:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Well if all you are interested in is fact, then Wikipedia is not the appropriate place. Wikipedia is supposed to document what reliable sources say; we take on stance on whether a given statement is true or not. That's just a general policy reminder. As regards to this article, then you are incorrect. So despite your interest in fact, you are actually saying things that are not factual. Either way, I've now changed that part and it simply says 'liberalism' instead of 'contemporary liberalism.' Finally, if you are having difficulty understanding what I am saying to you, then you should probably make an effort to rectify that. Making assumptions and strawmen arguments that serve to characterize your perceptions of what liberalism is does not help anyone and leads to futile confrontations.UberCryxic 19:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed the contradict tag. One contradictory statement would not be enough to warrant the tag, and the statement is not even contradictory in the first place. It makes the distinction between modern and classic liberals rather clearly. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 06:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Today, that is in 2006, it is conservatives rather than liberals calling for greater power for the federal government. Historically, every administration, Republican and Democrat alike, has roughly doubled the spending of the federal government over the previous administration. Nobody comes right out and says, I like the idea of a powerful federal government, but the liberals were willing to accept a powerful federal government to end segragation and the conservatives are willing to accept a powerful federal government to fight terrorism. On the other hand, to say that liberals "like" a powerful federal government is equivalent to saying that liberals "like" corruption, just because some liberals have been corrupt. The ideal of liberalism is freedom. The idea that liberals want a federal government that micromannages people's lives is Republican political propaganda. Rick Norwood 12:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Rick. I just want to add that this is not an article on American liberalism, so the fears of Doctors without Suspenders are no valid. Electionworld Talk? 17:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
First, I don't get my information from Republican propaganda. I personally don't care what the Republicans say. Second, I know that the Republicans and the Democrats both advocate a bigger federal government. It's completely irrelevant here because this article is on liberalism - not the Republicans or the Democrats. It's false to say that contemporary liberals advocate little government involvement (in America, at least), no matter what the conservatives want. It's true I don't know much about European, or other, liberalism, other than American liberalism. There should be some clarification on all this in the article, though. Otherwise it is completely confusing. I don't find it clear at all. And the article is still contradictory no matter what arguments are given here. Doctors without suspenders 18:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
It might be wise to read the whole article. It makes clear distinctions between various forms of liberalism. Electionworld Talk? 18:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
To argue that the entire article must be read to understand the contradictions in the introduction is absurd. The introduction does contradict itself. I mentioned this when I was a lowly IP, I called it, "flowerbox liberalism". WP:OWN, whatever.--Scribner 01:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The introduction does not contradict itself, now or before.UberCryxic 01:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Please learn to format your comments on the talk page UberCryxic, thanks. The introduction is too long and misleading. I'll edit.--Scribner 03:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Not that it matters, but I feel it's easier if I start completely on the left if someone before has indented. I really hate it when the comments just keep piling up on the right....looks like a damn stairway or something.UberCryxic 03:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually the lead is not long at all, especially considering the subject at hand. Nor is it misleading. Nonetheless, I would like to hear what specific complaints you have. What exactly is misleading?UberCryxic 03:18, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The "lede", pronounced "lead" but spelled, "lede" is too long compared to other political articles and yes it is not factual nor npov, with regard to less government and more taxes. Oxymoron to me. Have to run for now, just consider the changes, thanks take care.--Scribner 03:41, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

"Lede" is not a word in the English dictionary. I have no idea where you came up with that one. To convince yourself that I am referring to the right thing, just check out WP:LEAD, which starts off:
The lead section (lead paragraph or introduction) of a Wikipedia article is the section before the first headline.
Anyway, that aside, classical liberalism did advocate, stringently I might add, for as little government intervention as possible. This is a strain that continues to prevail in and influence modern liberal thought, though obviously in different contexts and in different ways. Modern liberalism is different from classical liberalism, and that distinction is drawn in the article, but when speaking about liberalism "broadly," as the lead does, the statements are more than appropriate.UberCryxic 03:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Common misspellings for lede=lead, Uber-minor, I agree. Sorry, really have to run--Jasper23, comment before reverting.--Scribner 04:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I did comment in my edit summary before you made your fourth unilateral revert. Please be civil in our future exchanges. There is no need to try and "call me out" All that does is build bad blood. Thanks. Jasper23 05:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
In all likelihood it is a neologism or an inside word amongst journalists. I can't find that word in dictionary.com or in Webster. So....something's gotta give here.UberCryxic 04:17, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I changed that statement again so it had something to do with reality. Let's not try and change reality. Okay? Doctors without suspenders 22:30, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

It is impossible to change reality, so I think you won't have any worries there. The laws of physics are beyond human intervention (hopefully). You probably meant perceptions of reality, which is a whole other area for discussion. Anyway, a few days ago I removed the word "contemporary" to make the statement appropriate. There is nothing wrong with what it says now. Liberalism, at large, really does seek a lesser role for government; that is, in fact, an essential aspect of the spirit of liberalism.UberCryxic 01:12, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

"Lede" is a journalists' term—quite a time-honored one, I might add—and refers only to the very opening lines of an article, basically intended to suck the reader in. "Lead section" is also a perfectly valid term, referring to a larger portion of the start of an article, usually down to the first section header or other similar break. - Jmabel | Talk 19:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

You should understand that I'm not disagreeing with you. It's just that none of these dictionaries are picking it up. Seems like a ghost word.UberCryxic 23:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lede BryanBessette 21:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Generous?

In Studies in Words, C. S. Lewis described the root meaning as "free, not a slave" and the term as acquiring the meaning "generous" from the use of it to indicate behavior appropriate to the free. Wiktionary agrees with him about the root. (Check under lower-case "liberal".) Are there references to substantiate the "generous" origin? Goldfritha 02:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Sure, the OED backs C. S. Lewis all the way. The first sense of the word, chronologically, is ‘worthy of a free man’, as opposed to servile or mechanical. The second sense, arising out of it and documented from 1387, is "free in bestowing; bountiful, generous, open-hearted", as in "In fighting he was strong, in giving liberal" (1387). The political meaning, defined by OED as "favourable to constitutional changes and legal or administrative reforms tending in the direction of freedom or democracy" isn't documented until 1801. Bishonen | talk 00:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Featured article?

Are we ready to improve this article towards featured status? __earth (Talk) 09:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

At this point, the article needs many more citations and a light copyedit.UberCryxic 18:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Is it alright if I nominate this article for CotW? __earth (Talk) 01:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Sure, but I'd recommend nominating it for good article status first. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 02:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
How about this: we try to win the Collaboration of the Week first. Once won, we'll try good article. Once we've gotten that, we'll shoot for FA. Deal? __earth (Talk) 02:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I've nominated the articlefor COTW/AID. Please support to improve the article by casting your vote there. __earth (Talk) 03:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism section

User User:Jackbirdsong has deleted the following, due to opposition to the existence of criticism section:

“

Criticism and defense of Liberalism

Collectivist opponents of liberalism reject its emphasis on individual rights, and instead emphasize the collective or the community to a degree where the rights of the individual are either diminished or abolished. Collectivism can be found both to the right and to the left of liberalism. On the left, the collective that tends to be enhanced is the state, often in the form of state socialism. On the right, conservative and religious opponents argue that individual freedom in the non-economic sphere can lead to indifference, selfishness, and immorality. The liberal answer to this is that it is not the purpose of the law to legislate morality, but to protect the citizen from harm. However, conservatives often see the legislation of morality as an essential aspect of protecting citizens from harm.

Anti-statist critiques of liberalism, such as anarchism, assert the illegitimacy of the state for any purposes.

A softer critique of liberalism can be found in communitarianism, which emphasizes a return to communities without necessarily denigrating individual rights.

Beyond these clear theoretical differences, some liberal principles can be disputed in a piecemeal fashion, with some portions kept and others abandoned (see Liberal democracy and Neoliberalism.) This ongoing process - where putatively liberal agents accept some traditionally liberal values and reject others - causes some critics to question whether or not the word "liberal" has any useful meaning at all.

In terms of international politics, the universal claims of human rights which liberalism tends to endorse are disputed by rigid adherents of non-interventionism, since intervention in the interests of human rights can conflict with the sovereignty of nations. By contrast, World federalists criticize liberalism for its adherence to the doctrine of sovereign nation-states, which the World federalists believe is not helpful in the face of genocide and other mass human rights abuses.

Left-leaning opponents of economic liberalism reject the view that the private sector can act for the collective benefit, citing the harm done to those individuals who lose out in competition. They oppose the use of the state to impose market principles, usually through an enforced market mechanism in a previously non-market sector. They argue that the dominance of liberal principles in economy and society has contributed to inequality among states, and inequality within states. They argue that liberal societies are characterised by long-term poverty, and by ethnic and class differentials in health, by (infant) mortality and lower life expectancy. Some would even say they have much higher unemployment than centrally planned economies.

A response to these claims is that liberal states tend to be wealthier than less free states, that the poor in liberal states are better off than the average citizen in non-liberal states, and that inequality is a necessary spur to the hard work that produces prosperity. Throughout history, poverty has been the common lot of mankind, and it is only the progress of science and the rise of the modern industrial state that has brought prosperity to large numbers of people.

 ”

Though I agree the criticism section is unnecessary, I do think the section has good points and we should try to spead out the point throughout the article without having a section specially created for criticism against liberalism. __earth (Talk) 03:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with the deletion of this section, despite being an ardent liberal. I have reverted his edits. Large-scale changes such as these should be discussed here first, and they should be discussed ad nauseum at that. There is criticism of liberalism and that section gets some of them well; just because it lacks citations does not give us reason to delete it entirely.UberCryxic 05:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm with UberCryxic here. I too am quite liberal and believe that a criticism section definitely has a place here. I do find it odd, though, that Conservatism has no criticism section...that should probably be corrected. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 05:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
... it isn't that we should not include the criticisms, but that the information should be properly incorporated throughout the article rather than having a troll magnet section of random criticisms.----Comment by Jimbo Wales
  • Hello Cielomobile talk / contribs. Assuming you read the above statement and understand what is means, what are you saying? One more time:
... it isn't that we should not include the criticisms, but that the information should be properly incorporated throughout the article rather than having a troll magnet section of random criticisms.----Comment by Jimbo Wales--Scribner 06:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

A little bit of history. Criticism sections appear in many articles. There was one in the article on conservatism, but it was deleted so often that the material there was incorporated throughout the article. That might be a good idea here, as well, but not wholesale deletion. Rick Norwood 13:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

All-right then Scribner, how about we change that section to a coherent set of criticisms, rather than random ones?UberCryxic 13:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Deletion was ridiculous, criticism is appropriate. Moreover, the section was wholly "coherant"; each point has been associated with an established view, and as far as I can tell, each view is not internally contradictory. If we want to follow Jimbo's will to the letter, then fine, spread the material across the sections. Lucidish { Ben S. Nelson } 15:49, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

This seems to be a case of someone with a hammer, to whom everything looks like a nail. There was nothing wrong with this section. It was a reasonable statement of the critiques of liberalism from various other points on the political spectrum. There is no evidence that it was functioning as a "troll magnet". I think it was fine the way it was. - Jmabel | Talk 01:36, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What did this say before??

"Liberalism is an ideology, philosophical view, and political tradition which holds that liberty is the primary political value.[1] Liberalism has its roots in the Western Enlightenment, but the term now encompasses a diversity of political thought.

Broadly speaking, liberalism is stupid and emphasizes stupidity. It seeks a society characterized by much stupidity by individuals, limitations on what is boogers, especially of government and farts, the rule of idiocy, free public education, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports relatively free private enterprise, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of all citizens are protected"

This is right at the begining of the article and seems to be obvious vandalism. I'm not sure what the wording was before to change it back. Rachelfk 21:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Rachel

The problem has now been fixed, but fyi: To revert obvious vandalism such as this 1) click on the "history" tab. Then click on the last post before the vandalism. Then click on "edit this page". Type "rv v" (revert vandalism) in the Edit Summary. Finally click on "Save page". Rick Norwood 13:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Earth's edit

Good edit, Earth! I would almost say, good, down to Earth, edit. Rick Norwood 14:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Rick. I wanted to do more edit but I unfortunately am a little busy right now. =( Anyway, Liberalism needs one more vote to survive Wikipedia:Article Creation and Improvement Drive for another week. Please vote for it =). __earth (Talk) 12:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is Forza Italia Liberal?

I am no expert and have been reading this page in a quest to better understand the difference between Liberal and Libertarian. On the basis of what I understand so far, I was suprised to see Forza Italia listed as a Liberal party (I live in Italy and know the party well), I would have said they were Libertarian.

Forza Italia's constitution states they are liberal, but it actually states a multitude of positions. Forza Italia(FI) have never run the country on thier own, they have led what is considered to be a right wing coalition. The other parties in the coalition are generally opposed to Libertarian concepts, and I suspect that in many cases they have watered down Libertarian proposals into liberal laws. Here are some actions which suggest to me that FI is a Libertarian party:

1)FI proposed, and obtained, a complete abolition of inherentence tax and tax on donations.

2)Tax evasion was declassified from a criminal offence to a civil offence.

3)FI proposed to sell off public land such as beaches and mountain areas (as well as public monuments) on a Freehold basis. This was watered down to leasehold agreements by allies.

4)FI has been behind some deregulation of commercial and economic activity.

On the other hand some of FI's activities seem to fly in the face of Libertarianism (or liberalism for that matter):

1)FI do not have a very good record on free speech, during the period 2001-2006 when FI led the governing coalition, Italy slipped down to the bottom of press liberty ratings (for example Freedom House). FI's leader suprised everbody when he was hackled (non obscenely) by a reporter at the exit of a court proceeding; he orderd the police to take the person's details.

2) The coalition of which FI is a part has a very conservative standpoint on issues such as gay relationships and immigration. Undoubtly this is in part due to the very conservative stance of other parties in the coalition, but FI never appears to oppose htese conservative viewpoints.

So just how should one classify a party such as Forza Italia? Allthougth I live in Italy I am an English citizen, and I am also well familier with the UK liberal democrat party. These two parties appear to me as different as chalk and cheese, are they really both liberal?

Well, FI is a party with many factions, but they are generally liberal-conservative, that is, they support some free trade and deregulation but also hold more conservative views on social and religious issues (and no, it's not just because of "allies", it's mainly because a large part of the old Christian Democrats are now in Foza Italia, forming the core of its conservative faction). The LibDems, on the other hand, are social-liberal, that is, they are liberal on social issues but not so much on the economy. Indeed, liberal-conservatism and social-liberalism do not go well together. In fact, the American visceral fight between "conservatives" and "liberals" is a dispute between liberal-conservatism and social-liberalism (in European terms). And although there are some factions within Forza Italia that are both socially AND economically liberal, they certainly don't go so far (on both aspects) as to be called "libertarians".Justice III 06:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Libertarians are primarily interested in preserving private property, and in favor of low taxes and little government regulation. Most people want the government to step in to give them what they want, and so a libertarian party is always a minority party. Libertarians split with the liberals and joined the conservatives when the liberals began to favor a progressive income tax. But it is a marriage of convenience.
I know nothing about Forza, but from what you say, they are a libertarian party run by people who talk the talk but don't walk the walk. For people in power, power is often the only thing that matters. Thus, many American libertarians are willing to vote for constitutional ammendments against gay marriage or flag burning, certainly anti-libertarian laws, in exchange for low taxes, which is the big issue for them.
In any case, you need to classify a political party by its platform, not by what the clowns in office actually do. In that case, Forza is a libertarian party. But like most libertarian parties, in practice they are willing to trade freedom for money.
American politics at the highest level is almost entirely about money, though there are still a few politicians who actually care about the country. In most cases, the slogans are for the rubes. Rick Norwood 14:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] All the liberal thinkers of this planet should join hands

It's high time that all the liberal thinking persons of this world join hands to fight extremism, neo-cons, terrorists and other narrow-minded ideologies. The world is in danger because the neo-cons are getting stronger in the west, while the huge majority of Islamic world is under the direct threat of mullahs or Islamic extremists. Realton 16:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Many neocons are also liberals, if by "neocon" is meant "interventionist". In any case, this isn't the right venue for pamphleteering. { Ben S. Nelson } Lucidish 16:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

A little bit idealistic Realton, but amen nonetheless. The French Revolution did, after all, promise liberal values to everyone around the world, not just the privileged few. In that sense, however, you'll note that George W. Bush has been quite the little (or big) liberal, at least in the rhetoric that relates to the Middle East.UberCryxic 00:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Well I partly agree with lucidish that yup this page is not for pamphleteering but my intention was just to share my views with others. Anywayz Can Bush be considered liberal coz he has not liberated the middle east n we all know what he has done to that region. Also sometimes I feel confused as what are the limits of liberalism and human rights approach. I mean the people who believe in peace and granting of human rights and and equality are real liberal or just everyone believing in a certain ideololgy but his/her deeds are contrary to it, like the neo-cons???? Realton 16:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It can be sort of complicated, since there are a lot of distinctions that float around out there. So your confusion is both understandable (and shared).
Human rights are a rigid part of the modern liberal approach, that's for sure; all modern liberals believe in human rights. But it's conceivable that a person could endorse human rights and not be a modern liberal. For example, a libertarian might support some (though not all) human rights. (To use an analogy: all cats are animals, but not all animals are cats.)
The Washington defence guys may or may not be neocons, depending on what their plans are / were. I take "neocon" to mean "someone who believes that we should invade other countries on the basis of some moral reasons". If we assume that the Washington bunch really did want Hussein out of power because he was a dictator, then we could call them neocons. But if we say that they just did it for Halliburton (say), then they wouldn't even seem to deserve the name of "neocon". They might instead be called "neoliberal".
(I don't make up these names, but I know how silly they sound.) { Ben S. Nelson } Lucidish 03:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

No soapboxing. But all liberal thinkers of the world should try to improve this article to FA status! =p __earth (Talk) 08:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Vandalism

When I typed Liberalism in the search box, I got a page that said "liberals are a bunch of shit eaters, we should kill them all." Does anybody else think this should be changed?--Jml4000 23:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Such vandalism is usually reverted within 15 minutes. Rick Norwood 13:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

When I first read this article it was fine, then five minutes later some idiot vandalized the entire article with gay bashing. I thought I would take the time to fix it, but less than five minutes later the same nonsense was inserted back in. Is there a way to find out who is responsible. Someone with more time may need to fix the entire article. Too bad.Herra-08 00:31, 17 December 2006 (UTC)herra-08

  • We finds 'em, and we warns 'em. If the same IP address keeps on hurling feces, we block them. If it's a named account, we do the same. Such is the nature of cooperative editing, I'm afraid. The better question is whether the page should be protected against anonymous editing. It needs to be more solid and better before that would even be imaginable. Geogre 14:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The people who vandalize this page with "Liberals are idiots" comments obviously don't understand liberalism (the political/ideological theory) at all. If they did, they would be able to see that the term actually refers to something much more complex and different than a centre-left leaning american. These people should try going to school. 198.96.33.38 00:12, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inconsistencies

At the beginning of the text appears the rather surprising (and revisionist) affirmation:

"Broadly speaking, liberalism emphasizes the communist agenda. It seeks a society characterized by government rule over individuals..."

However, later towards the end appears the more correct statement: "Collectivist opponents of liberalism reject its emphasis on individual rights..."

Mws06 17:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

It was vandalism. __earth (Talk) 01:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] not very neutral

At the end of the intro is the statement:

All Libs are idiots. they believe in murder, and they love muslims. they are what cause the people in 9/11 to suffer.

Obviously someone was acting out of immaturity and added it to be negative. I feel it should be removed but didn't know if it needed to be discussed first. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.215.237.220 (talk) 05:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC).

I agree this is a biased ignorant clearly American statement that needs to be removed immediately.

Unfortunately Liberalism is a much vandalized page. It has been reverted (=vandalism has been removed) several times since your report. Please feel free to remove obvious vandalism! There is no need to discuss it first. You'd be helping Wikipedia. Bishonen | talk 00:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC).
I think that it's ironic that the person above wrote that the biased, ignorant statement was obviously American; it shows their own anti-American bias. Veinor (ヴエノル(talk)) 01:41, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shouldn't this page be locked?

It gets tiring removing the same crap / vandalism virtually every day. JMLofficier 09:40, 24 December 2006

I'll semi-protect, let's see how that goes. - Jmabel | Talk 23:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Just like a liberal---silencing any discussion that you don't agree with! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.192.213.194 (talk • contribs).

Non-idiots sometimes forget to sign, too. Rick Norwood 19:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Just like a conservative---attributing to his shoes the faults of his feet.

Jesus H. Christ. Is this page always this much of a playground for the children? I think semi-protection is very called for here, and hopefully it'll keep the idiot vandals away. Hopefully somebody reliable with some free time on their hands has this one their watch list. I should say somebodies; this looks like it'll take the efforts of several. --Molon Labe 05:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shouldn't this page be a disambiguation page?

I'm thinking this article should actually just be a disambiguation page. It looks like various kinds of liberalism are being conflated and it's very confusing. The disambiguation would be between political liberalism, social liberalism, classical liberalism, economic liberalism, etc. All Male Action 04:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

This article follows the pattern of other portal articles in Wikipedia, such as History and Mathematics. It gives an overview, with references to various more specialized topics. Disambiguation pages are for phrases that have several entirely different meanings, and especially names shared by more than one famous person. Rick Norwood 13:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Those are indeed terms with "entirely different meanings." You never know what type of liberalism that a person is referring to when he uses the term "liberalism" unless you study the context. All Male Action 08:06, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that the idea that the various forms of liberalism have "entirely different meanings" is a pose. All liberals, for example, favor freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, the right to assemble, representative democracy, trial by jury, and so on. Their differences usually have to do with the conflicting roles of the federal government -- when the government acts to increase the freedom of some, it may be forced to act to decrease the freedom of others. For example, when slaves were given freedom, the slave owners were deprived of their property. But even the most extreme liberals in any variety of liberalism still are in favor of freedom, as contrasted to the original enemies of liberalism, who favored the existing class structure, the absolute authority of the church, and the devine right of kings. Those who do not remember the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. Rick Norwood 13:52, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll agree that all liberals "favor freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, the right to asssemble,...trial by jury, and so on," but not that they all favor representative democracy. Many classical liberals opposed democracy. In fact there have been several countries that were politically liberal without any democracy at all, such as the Austro-Hungarian Empire, where liberty is protected by an enlightened despot. But, what you're talking about, with the exception of the requirement for representative democracy, is called "political liberalism." And yes, all liberals favor political liberalism. But, that's where it ends. Beyond that there are different kinds of liberalism that have other beliefs besides political liberalism. When someone refers to "liberalism" one never knows whether they're referring to political liberalism, classical liberalism, economic liberalism, social liberalism, etc. I think it should be a disambiguation page. All Male Action 07:07, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

In the US, "Liberals" are the "Left". In Latin America, "Liberals" are on the "Right". In Europe, "Liberals" are "Centrist". The key question is - What accounts for this diversity: different strands of what is caled "Liberalism" or simply vagaries in the history and national politics of these countries?Giorgioz 20:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I think we must be very careful here. While it is true that liberalism across the world today encompasses a wide spectrum of sociopolitical and philosophical thought, there are some basic, fundamental tenets of liberalism that are not questionable. That is, if you disavow these, you are not a liberal.
In Maurice Cranston's famous words, "a liberal is one who believes in liberty." This definition, at its core and spirit, has never changed and never will change. Liberty/freedom is the key concept that underlies the whole liberal structure. The very word liberal comes from the Latin liber, which means "free." Originally, this term could mean something to the effect of an irresponsible person or even a vagabond, but eventually it acquired a definition meaning something along the lines of tolerant. The Spanish were the first to use the term in a political context in 1812 when a faction during the Peninsular War against France called themselves "Liberales." Their Spanish of Constitution of 1812 was also very liberal in nature, and in my opinion it is a document in the liberal pantheon equivalent to the Declaration of Independence or the Declaration of the Rights of Man. So that's a quick background into the early history of liberalism. What are the tenets of liberalism?
Philosophically, liberalism is rooted in the Fundamental Principle of Liberalism (I'll call it FPL), which states that liberty is the normal human condition and so the burden to prove this false or take it away, either intellectually or in some other way, requires explanation. Basically, the onus is on those who want to eliminate liberty to show why. It is very important to understand that the FPL is in importance right up there with what the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus is to calculus. If you know the latter, then you know it's very important to calculus; as in, calculus would not mean anything without it. Liberalism is the same with FPL. The FPL has its roots with the arguments of John Locke (often called the 'Father of Liberalism'), who maintained that early human societies were gentle and untainted by the hustle-and-bustle lifestyle of civilizations.
Now that we're past the FPL, there are some basic tenets that you can "strangle" out of it. Among these are the fact that all humans are fundamentally good (you can't pick and choose), rational, and capable of change. Then we'd make some more elaborate but still basic assertions (or so I think; if you find them controversial I'd love to know why): liberalism implies equality, religious toleration, and constitutional government, among other things.
So there you go: in its most basic forms, liberalism is what I've described above. It deserves its own article in every way. "Right" and "left" are horrible terms; they do not capture the underlying sociopolitical and philosophical complexities that characterize the beliefs of people throughout the world. For example, the "Right" in America believes in free markets and small government, but these are both very liberal concepts, mostly belonging to classical liberalism, but liberal nonetheless.UberCryxic 21:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


I tend to agree with those who think it should be just a disambig page. What people in different parts of the world usually refer to as "Liberalism" have wildly different meanings. I also don't think there is such a common bond of "freedom". So-called-Liberals Social-Democrats from North America emphasize positive freedom and, consequently, a great degree of state-tutelage, whereas most "Liberal" Liberals from around the world staying true to the tradition of Classical Liberalism emphasize negative freedom and absolute opposition to all forms of coercion, including from the state. It's naïve to think that American "Liberals", just because they came to be called as such for historical reasons, are still in the fold. Most have adopted a light version of Social-Democracy a long time ago. Just think of an experiment where American "Liberals" were transported to Europe and tried to join Liberal parties there: they would immediately be shunned by most as excessively interventionist and instead be advised to join one of the various Social-Democratic Parties. The only "Liberals" inside the American left who would be considered "Liberal" in most of the world outside the US are the "Moderates" / New Democrats. Apart from that, the two groups are now irreconcilable, in world terms. Justice III 17:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Rick and others; this should not be a disambiguation page. It traces the development of liberalism in general and contains a lot of information that the other articles could just not very easily incorporate. Likewise, there are some foundations of liberalism which are not questionable, as UberCryxic already mentioned. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 18:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, the Justice III's phrase "worthy of the name" shows a strong POV. Rick Norwood 22:35, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I used the phrase with the meaning "fit to be called as such in world terms". No offense or POV intended, sorry if it made you upset. Let it be known that I have ammended the comment. Now PLEASE let us stay on topic. You responded to 4 words, not to the arguments...Justice III 00:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Your whole comment is nothing more than a bash on American liberalism. The difference between modern liberalism in the US and that in Europe is all the more reason to have a central article to explain these differences. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 07:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Not really. Having simply one central article suggests that differences are minor and can be explained with a few notes, when in fact they are not, and a detailed explanation of each concept can be given in their respective articles. When a word has diverging socio-historical meanings the best way to deal with it is to have a disambiguation page. You can still talk succintly about the differences in the text that follows the links, and there will be no more illusions about a unitary definition of "liberalism". Just see the following examples that this article should follow: Radicalism, Revisionism, Anti-Stalinist left. Justice III 11:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The current page should stay as it is. Besides, in a way, it is a disambiguity page. Unlike typical disambiguity however, it goes further to explain why there are many branches of liberalism. The reason why branches of liberalism have different meanings is the evolution of liberal thinking. This article describes that evolution. Regardless, any liberalism, like has been mentioned earlier, has a central, ultimate theme. All branches of liberalism have the same end but different means of achieving that end. __earth (Talk) 11:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Justice, your arguments are based on a very restricted, very narrow and very POV view of freedom (and yes I do realise I just said "Point of View view".) Part of this view is that the involvement of the state and freedom are two fundamentally opposed things, this is NOT what Classical Liberals thought (as much as you can classify "Classical Liberals" as having said one thing.) Most Classical Liberals were utilitarians who argued for the involvement of the state in areas that private interests are unable to provide. The difference is that Modern Liberals see more areas where private interests are deficient. Slizor 11:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and that, coupled with recent developments in in European social-democracy, is precisely what makes American Liberalism another name for American Social-Democracy.Justice III 12:25, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the controversy here is due to the fact that Justice III is contrasting the various forms of modern liberalism and focusing on the differences. This article, on the other hand, is on the rise of liberalism, and contrasts it with the prevaling theories of government in the 18th century: a belief in the divine right of kings, in the supremacy of the church, and in the natural superiority of the male over the female and the white race over all other races. I doubt, Justice III, that you have ever met a person who believes in the divine right of kings, and yet it was in conflict with that widely held belief that liberalism arose. The differences between the various schools of modern liberalism, which are covered in their own articles, are minor in comparison. Rick Norwood 14:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Why, by your reasoning, the differences between Socialism and Libertarianism should also be "minor"(!), as their claimed heritage comes from the same background as the one you mentioned. The problem is that you are reading too much into a name. FDR associates chose the name "Liberalism" for post-1929 policies because it suited their purposes and avoided linking them to Communism, not because Liberalism has to do with pork-barrel spending. If we must define ideologies based on the names people in specific countries gave them, we should even include the Colombian Liberal Party, which is a full member of Socialist International, as "Liberal"! The choice of the name in America was arbitrary. Why do you think Classical Liberals had to regroup as "Libertarians" in the US? Because they knew that their name had been hijacked by Cryptosocialists and that the two groups didn't have anything in common. Contrary to your claim, there is no continuity between the Old Liberalism in 19th c. America and modern crytosocialist "liberalism". Only a bunch of registered Democrats Wikipedia editors could argue so. Have you ever read the same definition in encyclopedia Britannica, or any such non-wiki encyclopedic definition of liberalism? There's even mention there of this illusion of continuity as the great "myth" of American "liberalism". So, get real, it is just a word. There is no continuity of thought, and the only views shared by American cryptosocialists and "outside world" liberalism are those espoused by most political groups today (liberty, democracy, equality of opportunity, etc., etc. It's very easy to find any two groups with these views in common and claim they must be linked.) Besides, it is a completely Americocentrist view to reduce the picture of modern liberalism to certain American stereotypes of "liberals" who are in fact (crypto)socialists. The two (unrelated) groups must be clearly distinguished if you want info on Liberalism in Wikipedia to be taken seriously. Justice III 18:16, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Justice III is far too unfamiliar with liberal history for me to even attempt a cogent response, but needless to say the foundational principles outlined above are what give liberalism its unique status and provide a compelling reason to give liberalism its own article. Just for a brief word, however: per Rick, there is continuity in liberal thought and ideology. This "cryptosocialist" talk erroneously presumes that liberalim was transformed into socialism or communism simply because it was influenced by them.UberCryxic 01:31, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Justice III, it doesn't seem that you are listening to what has been said here. I'll try once more. This article is about Liberalism, a movement founded by John Locke and Thomas Jefferson in the 18th century. It then goes on, briefly, to provide pointers to the various movements that call themselves liberalism today. For Modern liberalism in the United States, there is already a separate article. This really isn't the place to complain about That man in the White House. Rick Norwood 13:44, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Well...mostly by Locke, and in the 17th century. There were several others who laid the groundwork before Locke, but he identified and coalesced the main features of liberal ideology. Thomas Jefferson borrowed heavily from Locke, but that in no way constitutes "founding" liberalism.UberCryxic 15:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Locke founded liberalism as a philosophy, Jefferson was one of the founders of the first state based on liberal principles. Rick Norwood 13:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I can agree with that somewhat. The United States is, in many ways, the first liberal democracy. I just question how that means Thomas Jefferson "founded" liberalism. Wouldn't it make more sense to say he was one of the first to apply liberal principles in forming a nation-state?UberCryxic 17:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Jefferson was one of the founders of liberalism as a political movement, as contrasted with an abstract philosophical movement. Rick Norwood 13:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your initial statement, but not with your interpretations and conclusions. Preferrably, we should be able to derive virtually all liberal principles, including those of political liberalism, from the foundations of liberalism as a whole. In that sense, all Jefferson did was to, again, apply the principles that had been worked out before him. In terms of political movements, those of the French Revolution were far more significant than what Jefferson did in the US. It was the French Revolution that essentially led to the explosion of liberalism as a sociopolitically viable alternative.UberCryxic 14:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

But the American Revolution came first. Rick Norwood 15:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

It does not matter what came first in light of the earlier statements in my last paragraph. All liberal principles should be derived from a core set of tenets. "Founding" liberalism can only happen once, and it happened with Locke (mostly; again, I emphasize that other people also had a "foundational" influence upon liberalism even though we can't say that they "founded" it). In terms of political movements, the French Revolution made liberalism prominent, even though the American Revolution came first. Furthermore, the American Revolution was liberal in the sense that it was about (mainly) liberty, but the French Revolution widened the scope of what liberalism meant, making it universal (ie. that it belonged to everyone, among other things).UberCryxic 20:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

but the French Revolution widened the scope of what liberalism meant, making it universal

What? Talking about all persons having unalianable rights is not universal enough?--Flix2000 18:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I think he may be talking about the fact that the American constitution only counted a slave as a fraction of a person. Rick Norwood 20:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Please do not turn this article into a mere disambiguation page leading to multiple, seperate varieties of liberalism. Liberalism may be a varied phenomenon, but it is a single historical phenomenon in the sense that the later branchings do have their root in the original spread of liberalism. For liberalism to be studied as a proper historical concept it must be studied as a whole phenomenon, starting with the historical roots, before branching out to study more specific flavors. The same holds true for conservatism, communism, authoritarianism, anarchism and any other "-ism" you can think of. --Molon Labe 05:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Dutch People's Party of Freedom and Democracy is plain liberal

I see that the Dutch VVD (People's Party of Freedom and Democracy) is included as a convervative liberal party. I beleive this is not correct, the VVD is a very strong proponent of euthanasia, abortion, gay marriage and same rights of men and women. On such personal freedoms it shares the views of the social-liberal party D66.

It is a strong proponent of both personal freedom and economic freedom and has ruled in governments with both the christian-democrats and the social-democrats. It is liberal, not social-liberal and not conservative liberal.

It is also a member of the Liberal International and the Liberal fraction in the EU parliament.

Hi Marcel4x4, I tend to disagree, academic sources like Andeweg and Irwin's standard work classify the VVD as "conservative liberal" (see Andeweg & Irwin Politics and Governance in the Netherlands p.49). There has been quite some debate on the talk:People's Party for Freedom and Democracy on this subject. Where consensus has been reached on the VVD's characterization as conservative liberal with some qualifications. Please take a look at Conservative liberalism what is exactly meant by this characterization, as it concerns foreign, economic and migration policy and not the medical-ethical and social issues you are refering to.
I also guess, welcome to wikipedia, please take your time to look at wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. Furthermore you can sign your posts on talk pages, like these with four tildes (like this ~~~~), so we know who said what. Happy editing! C mon 21:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Green liberalism

I Think it's important to sign also Green liberalism —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.15.135.203 (talk)

I'm not really sure what you mean here; could you elaborate? -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 18:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Green liberals are fanatics who want air to breathe and food to eat. Rick Norwood 22:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Liberal newspapers and Category:Liberal weblogs

The related Category:Ideological publications has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for Discussion page.

Result of the debate was delete. -Tobogganoggin talk 01:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

66.37.246.250 00:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC) Today's liberals are far from believing in individual liberty and individual rights. Campaign finance laws, which ignore the 1st Amendment are applauded by liberals. Gun ownership, which is protected by the 2nd Amendment, is constantly under assault by liberals. High taxes and big government, which are supported by liberals, are in direct conflict with freedom. Individual liberty and freedom is more in line with the Libertarian and Conservative philosophy.

Ok, and conservatives believe in protecting the fourth Amendment with their Patriot Act. Give me a break.

That modern liberals do not believe in individual liberty and individual rights is a lie repeated by Republicans for political gain. "Campaign finance laws" as you call them, are not laws to restrict liberty but to limit bribery, which is endemic in our current political system. Reasonable people have never extended their belief in liberty to include crimes such as theft and bribery. Gun ownership is a subject that divides liberals -- some favor it, some oppose it. Republicans like to pretend that all liberals oppose gun ownership, even liberals who have always favored gun ownership. But, again, it is not instantly obvious that your freedom to own a gun does not conflict with my freedom to live without getting shot. (Personally, it is risk I'm willing to take. I'm a liberal, and favor private ownership of guns, though I do think people convicted of committing a crime with a gun should forfit their right to own a gun.) The US has the lowest taxes (and the biggest debt) in the developed world. Liberals are not in favor of high taxes per se, but in favor of taxes high enough to balance the budget, at least when the economy is booming. As for big government, George Bush has spent more money than all of the Democratic presidents in the history of this country put together. He has asserted that the president is above the law. He has asserted that the federal government has rights formerly given to the states. He has asserted that the federal government has a right to tap your phone, inspect you bank account, arrest and hold you without charge, torture you, and if necessary kill you, all in the name of "homeland security". This is the kind of big government liberals oppose. One of my favorite quotes is by Gerald Ford, "Any government strong enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take away everything you've got." Rick Norwood 12:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] LIEberalism, not liberalism!

It's spelled LIEberalism because LIEberals love to lie! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Some Guy421 (talk • contribs) 21:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

and i guess conservatives love to hate so we are even........ ps you also lie =)

PS>> TO WHOEVERE WROTE THAT STUPID COMMENT, YOU ARE A LIEBERAL LOSER WHO SUCKS COCKS. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Some Guy421 (talk • contribs).

[edit] GA in zh.wikipedia

Please add {{Link GA|zh}} in interwiki section. Thanks! -- Givegains 13:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

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