Talk:Leviathan

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[edit] Demonology info

I am still looking for actual references for the claims that "In medieval demonology, a leviathan is an aquatic demon that tries to possess people, being very difficult to exorcise. Leviathan is generally considered to be the demon of envy and the who is first in punishing the corresponding sinners. She is also said to have been of the order of Seraphim. Many medieval authors considered Leviathan to be Grand Admiral of the maritime regions of Hell."

An editor wrote:

"Check the article here "Fallen angels' angelic ranks", as for her being a she is something that is of varied opinion in demonology. You have obviously not been a demonologist long enough."

But I cannot find an article by that name. The article Hierarchy of devils says Leviathan is a he, not a she, and does not support any of those except for being a member of the Seraphim, but I also note that that article cites no sources at all for any of its claims either.

Please provide an actual verifiable reference. Thanks. DreamGuy 00:22, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] There, I know this, I've checked this a million times.

In one of the most important Hebrew scriptures, the Book of Enoch, is written;

And that day will two monsters be parted, one monster, a female named Leviathan in order to dwell in the abyss of the ocean over the fountains of water; and (the other), a male called Behemoth, which holds his chest in an invisible desert whose name is Dundayin, east of the garden of Eden. - 1 Enoch 60:7-8

Even though she is sometimes seen as androgynous, there is more evidence that points to her being female.


Leviathan is a seraphim, which is a common view assigned by most demonologists;

The article says "The Leviathan is frequently associated with Satan or the Devil." Satan and the Devil are both exactly the same thing!/?

  • Satan
  • Abaddon
  • Asmodeus
  • Astaroth
  • Leviathan
  • Samael
  • Semyazza


  • From article: fallen angel
  • From part: Fallen angels by rank.

[edit] sources!

Leviathan - In the Enoch parables, Leviathan is the primitive female sea-dragon and monster of evil; in rabbinic writings, she is identified with Rahab, angel of the primordial deep, and associated with Behemoth (q.v).


http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=cabc&c=whs&id=8609

In common modern Christian usage, the word demon refers to an evil spirit. In 1612 CE Father Sebastien Michaelis claimed to have communicated with a demon named Balberith during an exorcism of a nun in Aix En Provence. Balberith listed a number of demons which Michaelis published in his book Admirable History. Michaelis listed three hierarchies of demons. Since it was believed that these were fallen angels the categories within these hierarchies bore the same names as those of the angelic hosts:


Heirarchy Order Prince(s) 1st Seraphim Beelzebub, Leviathan, Asmodeus


http://www.angelfire.com/realm/shades/demons/bookdevilsanddemons/fallenangels.htm

Leviathan (once partly of the order of seraphim).

http://www.sacred-magick.com/Evocations/High%20Ranking%20Demons.html

Leviathan was a Prince of the order of Seraphim.

Other fallen angels are Lucifer, once a Light Bearer; also Beelzebub, Leviathan, Azazel, Rehab.

Of the choir of Seraphim there fell at first Lucifer, Beelzebub and Leviathan


It's common knowledge that Leviathan was a seraph, you obviously know nothing, you washup mainstream excuse for a mythologist.

There's your sources, as well as additional phrases where people know Leviathan to have been a seraph.


(above comments by User:Satanael)

Please see wikipedia policy on Wikipedia:Verifiability and also No original research. Please provide reputable sources to support your claims. Also, please read up on Wikipedia:Civility. DreamGuy 23:07, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What the [word censored] is verifiable then!

http://www.whiterosesgarden.com/Nature_of_Evil/Demons/DM_Occult_Hierarchy/DM_hells_hierarchy_Father-Michaelis_1612.htm


Hell's Hierarchy as described by Father Sebastien Michaelis in 1612


<<Excerpt and explanation taken from The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft & Demonology (see below).>>

One of the most complete lists of devils and their functions was reported by the celebrated exorcist Father Sebastien Michaelis, in his Admirable History (1612). Balberith, a demon possessing Sister Madeleine, at Aix-en-Provence, obligingly told the priest not only the other devils possessing the nun, but added the special saints whose function was to oppose them. Since the devils were angels who had rebelled and fallen, they maintained their rank as ex-angels. The angelic court had been invented in the fourth century, out of the writings of Paul (Col. i. 16; Eph. i. 21), by the Pseudo-Dionysius, and consisted of nine orders of angels (three hierarchies each of three orders):

First Hierarchy:

Seraphim

Cherubim

Thrones

Second Hierarchy:

Dominions

Principalities

Powers

Third Hierarchy:

Virtues

Archangels

Angels

Balberith gave many lesser devils occupying Sister Madeleine, but the most important listed by Michaelis were as follows:

First Hierarchy

1. Beelzebub was Prince of the Seraphim, and next unto Lucifer. For all the princes, that is to say all the chief of the nine choirs of angels, are fallen; and of the choir of Seraphim there fell the three first, to wit, Lucifer, Beelzebub, and Leviathan, who did all revolt. But the fourth, who was Michael, was the first that resisted Lucifer, and all the rest of the good angels followed him, so that now he is the chiefest amongst them all. Lucifer, when Christ descended into hell, was there chained up, where he commands all . . . . Beelzebub tempts men with pride. And as John the Baptist holds Lucifer's place in Paradise . . . by his singular humility, so Beelzebub has Francis for his adversary in heaven.

2. Leviathan is the Prince of the same order, and is the ringleader of the heretics, tempting men with sins that are directly repugnant unto faith. [Adversary: Peter the Apostle]

Directly quoted from a demonology book by an expert, which means that since the info has an origin, it's valid.


Read, The Book of Enoch, see, have you heard of the book of Enoch, hmm, no, well, it's a set of texts found in the Dead Sea Scrolls which predate the Bible


The Apocryphal Book of Enoch gives the following description of this monster's origins:

"And that day will two monsters be parted, one monster, a female named Leviathan in order to dwell in the abyss of the ocean over the fountains of water; and (the other), a male called Behemoth, which holds his chest in an invisible desert whose name is Dundayin, east of the garden of Eden." - 1 Enoch 60:7-8

Here's a link that proves that it's in the Book of Enoch

http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/mythology/leviathan.asp


And besides, if people use Leviathan as a former seraph in demonology, that must mean she WAs a seraph, so it's supposed to stand here no matter what you say, and this, being an online encyclopedia, is supposed to have info from all directions, no matter what your precious rules say :P

(above unsigned, but by User:Satanael)


OK, first and foremost, "if people use Leviathan as a former seraph in demonology, that must mean she WAS a seraph," is complete nonsense. The fact that some dodgy sources claim she was a she and she was a seraph in no way shows that she was. Lots of people out there have really messed up ideas about lots of things, that doesn;t mean they are right.
Secondly, "being an online encyclopedia, is supposed to have info from all directions" is simply wrong. You need to go read Wikipedia:Verifiability and also Wikipedia:NPOV. Only reliable sources are used, and for controversial claims it is absolutely vital that the text in question be labeled as the claim stated by so-and-so (with link or other info to let people have an idea of how reliable they are).
You seem to have completely misunderstood how the policies work here. If multiple reputable sources say something without any dispute, then we can list it unsourced. If multiple reputable sources say different things, then we report each and reference who says what. If some dodgy but fairly well known or numerous people claim something that goes against what other more reputable sources say, we can cite it but point out who said it and that it's not the accepted belief. If some totally unreliable person with no background or fame makes some claim that flies totally in the face of all known facts, then it isn't listed at all.
What you have above is a mixture of the last two scenarios. Some just are complete nonsense and shouldn;t be listed, others are at least cited by some sources some people have heard of and can be listed provided the source is clearly identified and the credential are listed.
Please take the time to read those policies I mentioned above, as they are spelled out there and would have cleared up your confusion. Also, again, please also read about the Wikipedia:Civility policy, as your actions here and ways of phrasing things are completely unacceptable. Also please sign your talk comments. DreamGuy 20:59, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Leviathan as a Serpent

I am interested in what people know about Leviathan being a serpent and how that plays into serpent mythology. It seems in Judaism that there is a connection to the Leviathan at the "end of the days". Therefore according to Jewish mythology history begins and ends with a serpent. Any comments on the meaning behind this?

It is Xian mythology that history starts with a snake. Judaism does not give much values to the "fall" of man. Perhaps, if you want some meaning, Judaism holds that Adam had no internal inclination to do otherwise from G-d. A test was devised and somehow or another he failed (what part was the failure is a matter of debate) and then he now had an internal inclination to make bad choices (besides the already internal one to make good choices, which means internally he always had to make a choice of which to follow). This all ends when G-d slaughters the satan (capital S is Xian mythology, not Jewish) at which point noone will have any inclination other than to do what G-d wants. This makes life a test. The snake was merely the metholody for the delivery of the first test, with little significance given to it otherwise. -- Chacham 1:29, 29 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Also any comments on the Talmudic piece that says that God spends three hours of his day playing with the Leviathan? Bram

Here's the source in 'Avoda Zara Vonfraginoff 07:34, 10 August 2005 (UTC)


Meh, I'm sure it's a mosasaur. That's -like- a snake, unhinging jaw and all.

[edit] Revelations

Levianthan was also mentioned in the last book of the New Testament.

[edit] Other references apparently deemed unworthy of the article page

Spoiler warning: Plot and/or ending details follow.

In the 1975 science fiction story The Illuminatus! Trilogy, the Leviathan is a massive single-celled creature that lives in the ocean and has survived–without offspring– from time immemorial. In this account, the Leviathan is one of the two original life forms on Earth, the other being that from which all other life evolved. Instead of evolving multiple cells, reproduction and–in some sense–mortality, the Leviathan continued to grow it's single cell over billions of years, and developed an almost god-like intellect, including telepathy. One of the most striking variations from more traditional accounts of the Leviathan is that Shea and Wilson describe it as pyramid shaped, explaining that the shape is neccessary to withstand the pressure exerted by the sea and gravity on the enormous body. This, however, was most likely to accommodate other aspects of the story, for instance the Eye in the Pyramid which was a symbol of the Illuminati in the story as well as in a number of real-word conspiracy theories (see Eye of Providence#Illuminati).

Spoilers end here.

B.Mearns*, KSC 00:41, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


I changed "Leviathan in Literature" to "Leviathan in Other Media". There are three entries in that section which weren't based in literature. Levid37 07:27, 16 May 2006 (UTC)Levid37

These lists have a tendency to get cluttered with borderline notable references; for the sake of readability I think it's preferable to keep the references on this page to a minimum, and shift the more wide-ranging media references to the disambiguation page. Feel free to revert if you disagree. --Muchness 00:28, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the prophet Jonah

Is it possible to discuss the Leviathan in Judaism without mentioning the prophet Jonah? I find that very strange. The only mention seems to be a passing reference when referring to Pinocchio.

212.143.147.214 10:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I edited the title to say "Jonah" and not "Noah" as the two are not the same. Also, take note that Jonah was in the belly of a whale, there is NO mention of him being within Leviathan. -- Dan N.

leviathan, the water demon can turn into anything it so pleases. it often turns into a beautiful if young woman to lure young men into the sea. once the man wanders into the sea in search for his false love. the beast shows it's true colors.

Pulled that one out of your butt did ya? Likening sirens from greek mythology to the biblical leviathan, never thought I'd see it. -- Dan N.

[edit] Alligator

A foot note in my copy of the NIV says that "Leviathan" may be an ancient name for Alligators. Has anyone else read this anywhere?Seizurebot1011 23:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Alligators? Why alligators? The ancient Hebrews never encountered alligators. I've only heard about biblical scholars thinking that the image of Leviathan was influenced by the Nile Crocodile.--Mr Fink 01:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

In my footnote it states that the leviathan is thought to be a crocodile. I greatly agree with this thought, all except for the fire-breathing portion. That is the only part that does not fit in with the alligator/crocodile explanation.

Footnotes say all kinds of things. I recommend that you cross-check your versions - the KJV is still the best to use. -- Ins-dragonclaw 01:35, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] why is the imaginary monster the first Wiki article?

Why is the imaginary monster the first Wiki reference instead of the book by Thomas Hobbes, which is obviously what most people come looking for? 196.218.80.75jackbrown

Maybe because Hobbes named his book AFTER the Biblical monster in the first place?--Mr Fink 22:31, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Which Bible version is used in this article?

I didn't see the version listed with the Bible passages. Is it NIV? Agatehawk 05:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

It looks like a mixture of versions to me. Some KJV/AV, and some modernizations. It could do with some checking, and perhaps standardization into one version throughout the article. I'd rather tread carefully here, as the question of choice of Bible translation tends to get very heated sometimes... Emil

[edit] DMC3

I added the appearence of Leviathan in Devil May Cry 3 a while ago, but it got removed with an edit summary saying it was un-related. I'm just wondering why it was removed, cuz in the game, he fit the description pretty well. The game also has many other characters that get their names/nature from Mythology. I don't know if whoever removed it has never played the game, or if there's some other factor?--KojiDude (Contributions) 03:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it's because this article refers strictly to the Leviathan, as mentioned in the Bible, and that modern day references and or uses of Leviathan go in the disambiguation page.--Mr Fink 19:01, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


The article says "The Leviathan is freqently associated with Satan or the Devil." Satan and the Devil are both exactly the same thing!/?

Anon

−== Leviathan - aquatic? ==

Hello

Yeah - I have a question. The article paints leviathan as an aquatic beast. So do all your references, etc etc. My question is this: Why would God create a fire-breathing animal, and then assign the WATER as it's home? It makes no logical sense. Fire and water don't mix. And leviathan's fire-breathing characteristics are clear in Job 41:

" (18) By his sneezings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. (19) Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out. (20) Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or cauldron. (21) His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth. " Job 41:18-21 KJV

Two things seem clear - 1.) This thing can breathe fire. 2.) Constant references to "him" seem to indicate that the predominant gender is male. So if there was a female leviathan that was slaughtered and salted, or whatever, this seems to fit.

Now, I know that leviathan is described as the 'beast of the ocean'. That doesn't necessarily mean that he LIVES in it. Penguins are birds of the ocean, too, but they tend to live on dry land, and only make forays into water. Then there's this verse, that also is taken to mean that he lives in the water:

" (31) He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment." Job 41:31 KJV

What that basically says - I think - is that he churns up the water. I can think of one other creature that does just that, though on a smaller scale - the Fish Eagle. Ever seen what happens when one of them catches a fish? Now multiply that by 10'000, and ...

" (32) Behind him he leaves a glistening wake; one would think the deep had white hair." Job 41:32 NIV

Now, this obviously necessitates another ability - flight. And maybe there's a reference to that, somewhere. I'm just trying to get you guys thinking in another direction, lol.

Leviathan is starting to look like another creature that has riddled mythology the world over - the classic, Western Dragon. Wing-beating, fire-breathing and generally with a bad attitude. Think about it - how can there be so many references to dragons (dinosaurs excluded), in so many different places, if there wasn't a dragon to begin with? It's a pretty fantastic creature to just suck out of your thumb, and it appears all over America, South America, Europe and even ( i think ) a few spots in Africa. Maybe there WAS one, and stories about it were handed down over the centuries?

So maybe leviathan isn't an aquatic hippo, or whatever you have him figured for.

Another thing: Capitalization is very important here. When 'leviathan' is mentioned in Job, it's an animal. When 'Leviathan' is mentioned just about everywhere else, it's usually referring to one of Satan's subservient demons. Just like 'serpent' and 'Serpent', and 'bush' and 'Bush' have different meanings altogether.

Here's one more to make you scratch your heads:

" (22) In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned to joy before him." Job 41:22 KJV

Now, if I was staring down a massive, aquatic demon-hippo-thing, my joy would turn to sorrow, right before I go -very fast- in the opposite direction. It seems the biblical leviathan had the opposite effect. Another mystery to add to all the others, considering that dragons have always had (admit it you otherkin) a magical aura about them, as if there was just something different about them.

Ins-dragonclaw 15:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Four things: a) Leviathan can be thought of as being the Jewish version of the "Primordial Serpent/Dragon of the Waters," especially since in the Middle East, the Primordial Serpent is described as having several heads, like the way Leviathan is described in the Book of Psalms, b) Leviathan does not fit the "Western Dragon" type, as the Bible never described it has having wings, c) In the Book of Job, Leviathan, and Behemoth are shown as being two of God's most magnificent creations, likewise, when Leviathan is mentioned in Psalms, and in Isaiah, Leviathan is used as a synonym for Satan, and d) Behemoth, not Leviathan, was hippo-like.--Mr Fink 15:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

--- Response to Mr Fink:

Ok, bear something in mind: I'm coming from a biblical perspective here. That said, let me say this: It is _illogical_ for a WATER creature to breathe FIRE. God's creations reflect harmony, not discord, and placing a fire creature in water is discord.

Point (a): Are you referring to the leviathan monster, or the Leviathan demon? Note - I DID say that capitalization was of extreme importance, and I'm sure that more than one deity has been portrayed with multiple heads.

Point (b): Ok, so the bible doesn't describe that. It also doesn't tell us how the universe was created, when Jesus will return, why angels glow and why the Jews could drink unfiltered water. The bible is NOT a final resource - the bible is a compilation of scrolls, written down by men who were recording the stories of the day. The bible was later compiled by Roman authorities - to me, that alone reduces it's credibility to 20%.

Point (c): In Job, God states something to the effect of

"Look at how powerful he [leviathan] is. You can't stand up to him - how are you going to stand up to Me?".

Then, the bible is -RIDDLED- with references to the victory we have over Satan. So it really defeats me as to why leviathan is a symbol for Satan - we (apparently) can't defeat leviathan, but we CAN defeat Satan.

Point (d): Thanks for clearing that up. -- Ins-dragonclaw 01:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

"Leviathan" is the name of a single creature, that's why I always capitalize it.
Virtually all cultures with dragons in their mythos, have the vast majority of these beasts being able to breath fire. In some cases, it may be a magnification/exaggeration of a snake's ability to spit venom, much like the way the sacred asp that protects the Egyptian god Ra incinerates all of his enemies. In others, as many legends of dragons portray them as being aquatic or semi-aquatic, the fire-breath may have come from mistaking a whale's or crocodile's spray of water while coming up for air as being smoke. I remember reading one scholar's idea, in that Leviathan was actually a personafication of the sea, itself, in that the "sneezing of light" refers to islands erupting, and that Leviathan's invulnerability to weapons refers to the futility of fighting the sea.--Mr Fink 01:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

--- Response to Mr Fink:

Be careful what you capitalise - it drastically alters what you're referring to. There -IS- a demon called Leviathan, and then there's a creature who's type is labeled leviathan. So far, you've given me no proof to the contrary.

Throughout the Bible, Leviathan was referred to as being either a unique creature, or one of Satan's alter-egos. I have never come across a biblical reference saying that there was more than one Leviathan. The Demon Leviathan was thought to be the Lord of the Sin of Envy by Medieval and Rennaissance demonologists who were elaborating on Leviathan-as-Satan. What source of yours says that "leviathan" is a kind of creature?--Mr Fink 07:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
You're straying into theology. I'm talking about the physical monster - there was, as near as I can tell, a physical monster, called leviathan, that lived on Earth. This leviathan is different to the Leviathan demon, who has no physical body.
I also never came across any bible references saying that God ever created more than one man and one woman - Yet Cain, when he left the Garden of Eden, somehow managed to found a city. How can you found a city with one person? The bible is -not- final. - Ins-dragonclaw 15:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The sacred asp that protects the Egyptian god Ra: Who said it's an asp? Bear in mind that the spirit realms are more real than this existence we call 'solid'. It's entirely possible that Ra's asp was something like an Eastern Dragon, possibly a spiritual version. We just don't know enough to make the call here.

What are you jabbering about spiritual versions of "Eastern Dragon"s? The Chinese never ever ever ever had any contact or cultural exchange with the Ancient Egyptians. If you saw representations of Ra on his boat travelling through the Underworld, you'd notice a large snake forming a roof over him. THAT IS THE SNAKE I'M TALKING ABOUT. (Probably Fink, he's the only one arguing here lol)
Right. Tell me, why are there Dragon legends all over the world? Er - maybe this transcends cultural exchange? And why did the Incas, Egyptians and Chinese all build pyramids? Maybe because they all had the same origin? - Ins-dragonclaw 15:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'll grant that it's possible to mistake a spray of water for smoke, since it looks like a mist. But, uhm, fire is pretty distinct. It's red, it glows and it burns.

Leviathan is the ocean? Well, that's not a very clever thing to say. First off, the ocean doesn't have scales, it doesn't have eyes that glows like the rising sun (unless you count the rising sun itself, but remember that eyeS is plural), and water has a terrible time lighting fires:

Are you dense or are you purposely ignoring the mentioning of volcanic eruptions?--Mr Fink 07:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Volcanoes with scales? Wow. And since when can the breath of a volcano (which could be equated to the ash it throws up) light a fire? As to the 'dense' - ROFL. Here I thought we weren't gonna get into personal attacks. Maybe I am a little dense, but you know what? It's saved me from so many false prophecies, so I'll just stick to what I know. - Ins-dragonclaw 15:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

"His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth" - Job 41:21 NIV

Nope - so far, you keep defending the idea that leviathan is somehow aquatic. Try a new point of view, just for a second. It's more plausible to believe that Job 41 describes a western dragon - and neglects the wings - than it is to believe that it describes an underwater creature that breathes fire. - Ins-dragonclaw 06:04, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The Bible says that Leviathan lives in the depths of the Sea. How is that not proof that Leviathan is aquatic? Furthermore, I refuse to believe that Leviathan was some sort of "wingless Western Dragon," given as how the Heraldic Dragon was not invented until during the Middle Ages in Europe, and that all dragons in Middle Eastern myths during the time period the Bible was written were portrayed as being either monstrous serpents, or multiheaded monstrous serpents. Read about Leviathan's Hittite counterpart Lotan, please. FURTHERMORE, the only times the Bible mentions about where Leviathan lives, the Bible says that it lives in THE SEA. You haven't shown me a reference, biblical or otherwise, that said that Leviathan lived somewhere other than THE SEA
One more thing, not a single reference to Leviathan in the Bible ever mentions it having legs or claws. If Leviathan was a wingless "Western" dragon, certainly the writers of the Bible would have mentioned it having legs.--Mr Fink 07:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

--- Response to Mr Fink:

lol.

) Are you talking about the leviathan monster, or the Leviathan demon? They are -NOT- one and the same.

) And I never said "wingless". I said that the Bible may have -neglected to mention- wings.

) And since when is the Bible the final authority on anything?

And something else - any huge lizard was termed 'dragon', until the word 'dinosaur' was invented - I think in the 1800's (citations would be appreciated). Remember - humans walked with dinosaurs, so the 'creation of the Heraldic Dragon in the Middle Ages' seems a little implausible to me, especially since they've been around since the dawn of Man.

Heh. I think this conversation needs to be moved to a proper forum, lol. - Ins-dragonclaw 15:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


Ok im not really an expert on any of this stuff so i will save my ramblings, but one quote did catch me there at the end. Somebody said, and i quote "and since when is the Bible the final authority on anything?" Could you please be so kind as to explain what you mean, because from my point of view the bible should be the "final authority", seeing as how God basically wrote it himself.

[edit] Leviathan - distinctions

LOL this is getting torn out of proportion.

Ok - as far as I know, there are two 'leviathans' in this wonderfully liquid universe of ours.

The first Leviathan (and the one the article focuses on) is a demon. This demon works for Satan, is represented by a multi-headed serpent, has the ocean for a domain (is therefore a water spirit - usually they are the most dangerous kind).

The second leviathan is (or was) a living creature as detailed in Job 41. This creature (to me, obviously not to Mr Fink) resembles the Western Dragon, if you're willing to make a few assumptions.

Just like we have serpent (the average snake) and Serpent (specifically Satan), we have leviathan (creature) and Leviathan (Demon).

Bearing this in mind, can we please make sure which leviathan we're talking about?

Ins-dragonclaw 15:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don;t believe EITHER one existed, but I don't want to get involved in the argument here. However, I can't resist pointing out that in the language the Old Testament was originally written in, Hebrew, there are no capital letters - words are written with the same letters whether they're names or not, whether they're at the beginning of a sentence or not. So, the distinction you're getting worked up about can't exist. -- Milo —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.171.2.42 (talk) 01:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Dinosaurs by Design

This is a children's book. Isn't there a better reference for this? IPSOS (talk) 01:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

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