User talk:Lethiere

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Contents 1 peerage 2 Bourbon pretenders 3 thank you for your information 4 Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(names_and_titles)#Incoherence_in_French_titles_of_non-royalty 5 Pretenders Ernst August 6 Adulterine 7 Naming conventions, etc. 8 TfD nomination of Template:Infobox_prussiakstyles 9 WP:ROYAL 10 Welcome! 11 British Royalty 12 Move 13 WP:NOBLE 14 BRoy Style Guide 15 Proposed Java move 16 Jorge de Bagration 17 Prince Canino Line 18 Line of succession to the Portuguese throne, presently 19 House of Savoy 20 styles 21 your odd request for citation 22 Tatiana Konstantinovna 23 BRoy titles templates poll 24 Length of comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Farahnaz Pahlavi 25 Primogeniture 26 High / Privy Council of Sweden move request 27 Katharine of Aragon 28 Dauphins of France 29 Primogeniture (agnatic) 30 ATT Poll 31 Talk:Elisabeth of Bavaria

[edit] peerage

Hi, I don't know if you're still following the peerage move debate, but just to let you know that the debate was closed by User:Nightstallion who single-handedly decided that there was no consensus and the article should not be moved. I have already sent a message to Nightstallion and expressed my disagreement. Please check on his talk page. As it stands now, not only is the peerage article still devoted only to British peerage, but there's not even a link on top of the article linking to peerages in other countries. I think it is a shame for an encylopedia that intends to have a world audience, not just a UK audience. Please express your opinion on the matter if interested. Thanks. Hardouin 15:52, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bourbon pretenders

Talk:House of Bourbon#French Bourbons: impressive. There might be an article (or two) lurking in your talk-page comments there. - Jmabel | Talk 04:32, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I entirely agree. That's the most lucid explanation (i.e., untangling) of the various claims I've seen. This really ought to be worked into an article. (And I don't suppose you're sufficiently knowledgeable to do something similar for the Stewart claimants?) --Michael K. Smith 21:34, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the encouragement. But Stewart claimants? I didn't know there were more than one! Besides, that's Noel McFerran's bailiwick.Lethiere 02:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] thank you for your information

hello Lethiere, thank you for your comments, how did you know that I was researching on that topic? Ok, so in this case it is assumed that she was "Prinzessin v. Sachsen", whereas Albert of Saxe-Teschen was "Herzog", is that correct? Are you also familiar with Austrian noble titles such as "Ritter" and "Edler"? I had an interesting debate once with User:Cfvh who said these titles were "qualities" and not full-fledged noble titles. Or how do you see this? Gryffindor 07:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your information. My head is still smoking from reading it, I still don't quite understand. I mean I understand the whole "baronet" and "Sir" part in the United Kingdom, however I think we are trying to compare things here which are not really comparable, since there does not seem to be an English equivalent of the Austrian "Edler" and "Ritter". I cannot think of any German word that would make a difference between "rank" and "title", or maybe you happen to know it? There is "Hochadel" and "Niederer Adel" (as well as "Uradel", "Reichsadel", etc.) and "Adelstitel", but "rank"....? I think your sentence "..because in several languages often the same word is used for both or they have morphed into one another." probably describes it best, because in German Adel is Adel. You're either part of it, or not. In English differentiations are made but I cannot think of anything in the German language that would describe a differentiation in Austria and parts of Germany. I think I really need to hear the German terms, then I can understand better, but thank you for your help. Gryffindor 22:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(names_and_titles)#Incoherence_in_French_titles_of_non-royalty

hi Lethiere, how are you? Remember the discussion we used to have on this topic? I was wondering if we could slowly maybe draw a close, considering this topic has been on and off for over a year (previous discussions). I think we are basically not quite sure if we should have them all in English, in native version, or a mixture of both? Gryffindor 17:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pretenders Ernst August

Please see Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Ernest Aug. and constibute to the discussion there. I look forward to people assessing UE:should English be used in all these cases and how; would any sort of numeral be acceptable; Is there any other sustainable way to disambiguate these systematically. Shilkanni 10:54, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adulterine

Hi Nunh-huh and Lethiere;

I am posting this on both of your talk pages. I have Albert II, Prince of Monaco on my watchlist and am noticing a lot of reversions occuring, around what I notice to be the use of adulterine. Can this be discussed rather than turn into an editing war of sorts? Adulterine in a dictionary gives a definition as being born of adultery. If Jazmin was born out of adultery, it is factual usage. However, I think its inclusion ought to be discussed on the talk page rather than through edit summaries. Charles 02:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naming conventions, etc.

Hey, just saw your comment. I'd be interested to hear what, exactly, you're suggesting here. I agree that there's fairly low "buy-in" for the current conventions, as this Polish issue, for instance, has showed. But I'm not sure exactly what throwing out the current guidelines and starting again from scratch would accomplish. Do you have specific proposals to make in terms of changes, or do you just think we should blank and build up again and see what develops? And what makes you think that the guidelines are the problem? It seems to me that the principal problem is that a lot of people don't care about specific guidelines like this. Throwing out the guidelines and writing them again is only going to result in a different set of guidelines that nobody listens to.

I have no particular personal stake in the current business. For instance, if we were designing a monarchical naming guieline from scratch, I might prefer a system where a) monarchs aren't disambiguated pre-emptively; and b) where disambiguation is done by parentheses (rather as in the German wikipedia. Thus George V of the United Kingdom would become George V (United Kingdom). This would have the advantage of not implying false titles, as such articles as Constantine I of Greece, Leopold II of Belgium, and Wilhelm II of Germany currently do. But I don't think this would actually solve any of the problems you point to. No matter what we do, there are going to be people editing individual articles who've had no connection to the naming conventions, and no particular interest in them, and still want to move the page where they want to move it. I don't see as we can do much about this. john k 20:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TfD nomination of Template:Infobox_prussiakstyles

Template:Infobox_prussiakstyles has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Charles 17:42, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The template was only used for three kings of Prussia, the last three which were German Emperors. The German Imperial template box has been modified to include the royal titles and this template is not longer needed as no page links to it (and there is a standard template for kings). Charles 17:42, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:ROYAL

Thanks for pointing out that I have jumbled together "nobility" and "royalty" in the guideline. That's what I meant when I said in my first talk post that my choice of words would be poor. It seems, from most of the opinions on the talk page, that the way to go is to make this apply to all nobility, not just the royal family. The actual royal family (as defined in the guideline) doesn't need to meet these additional criteria. I'm going to make some changes in an attempt to fix that. I may go too far, so please feel free to make changes. Kafziel 13:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I was pleasantly surprised this morning to read the latest version of Wikipedia talk:Notability (royalty). By combining my concerns that notability be defined in terms of kinship with your own preference for a specified place in the order of succession you have come up with a new and better solution than I proposed. There are a couple of minor corrections I'll make, but I think the guideline is now clear, correct and useful. Thank you for taking into consideration the points I raised -- it took me hours to track down those 3 successors who had been 8th in line to the throne. Good work, Kafziel!. Lethiere 17:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Lethiere, I wonder if you might take a look at my discussions with Kafziel at Wikipedia talk:Notability (royalty). Another head looking at this would, I think, be useful. Thanks. john k 20:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome!

[edit] British Royalty

Lethiere, WikiProject British Royalty wants you! WikiProject British Royalty is an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to British royalty on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you should visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

[edit] Move

Hi, Lethiere. I'm very sorry about the lack of notification on the article's talk page. I forgot to make a note. My post to the Administrators' Noticeboard was less helpful than I had hoped, as no uninvolved adminstrators commented (if no one responds on the board in about a day, it is unlikely they are going to. also, a lack of response indicates general lack of interest and once it moves higher up on the page, it is much less visible). In practice, move requests are decided by the majority, even if it is slim, since a move is not the same as deletion. That fact, the apparent relevance of #10 at the time, and the fact that names are usually decided by what is the most common usage even when it is technically incorrect led me to move the article. However, even if #10 does not apply, an argument could be made that the name should be Queen Anne of Romania and that is what they majority wanted. Therefore, I do not think a move back would be appropriate at this time.

I suggest making another move request and carefully stating why you think it should be moved, including counter arguments to the ones already used. Try to be as concise as possible while still being persausive and clear. You could add a note to the request asking for the move request to remain open longer to increase participation, perhaps 10 to 14 days. You could also add a notice to the miscellaneous page of the Village Pump about the survey taking place. Make sure that it is neutral, though. If there is a place you know of that would get a lot of attention, you could also post it there. However, you should be careful, as it could be seen as improper if the people who are likely to see the note are significantly more likely to support your position. Talk to you later, Kjkolb 10:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:NOBLE

I obviously offended you, although I'm not sure what exactly it was that I said. It seems you thought I was saying that these traditional leaders are the heads of street gangs. I assure you, I wasn't. I was speaking literally. The point was made that these kings have de facto power over large groups of people and are therefore nobility. I contend (as does the rest of the world) that it takes more than that. The leader of, say, the Crips, has no legally recognized authority yet his boundaries stretch across borders and he is obeyed by thousands of people. Same definition. WP:NOBLE doesn't guarantee him an article, because he's not the leader of an internationally recognized sovereign monarchy. I could just have easily used the Somali warlords as an example, or the modern leaders of the American Indian nations, and maybe I should have, but I'm from New York so gangs came to mind first. So if there was a misunderstanding there, I apologize for my poor choice of words. The whole reason I joined the conversation is that I'm offended by the constant accusations of Eurocentrism on Wikipedia, so it certainly wouldn't be my intention to turn around and offend someone else. I'm sorry. Kafziel ^Talk 01:23, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] BRoy Style Guide

I've just created a proposal for our Style Guide - HERE - please do discuss it on the talk page // DBD 12:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Java move

Hi. I saw your comment on the move, but you mentioned Polaran's userpage. Is that correct? --Merbabu 08:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry - forget that comment. I misunderstood. I get it now. :) --Merbabu 14:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jorge de Bagration

Well, I actually checked all Georgian news websites including that of Imedi TV cited by Itar Tass, but could not find any info on that. I think it is a kind of misinterpretation of Zourabichvili's words. Thanks, --Kober 19:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prince Canino Line

Hey Lethiere, I see that you've done some work on this article. I've changed it around a bit (the family tree still seems a bit garbled to me...), mostly to indicate that Lucien's descendants were not, and never have been, pretenders. You already noted that they never put forward a claim themselves, but I'm unaware of anyone ever putting out a claim on their behalf. The idea that the senior line has some kind of natural claim to the Bonaparte heritage seems patently absurd, and unless we can find some positive citations supporting that anyone other than wikipedia editors has put forward a claim on their behalf, I don't think we should promote the idea, even by denying it. john k 13:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

That's odd about Jerome not being in the line of succession during the First Empire. I will trust you and Mr. Velde on that question - if you haven't already removed that addition by me, I'll do so. That being said, "assuming good faith" does not mean that we are to assume that what someone writes is true, merely that they believe it to be true. It may not be our job to remove pretenders based on our judgment of the validity of their claims. But it is certainly our job to remove "pretenders" whom no sources show as having ever actually pretended to any throne. Neither you nor I have read any reliable source that suggests that anyone from Lucien's line ever put forward a claim. It is the responsibility of the person arguing that such a claim exists to provide evidence for it. Maria Pia and Dom Rosario are certainly pretenders in the sense that they've put forward claims. As such, I can see the merit in your argument that it is not for us to summarily exclude them. But I can't see any merit in saying that we should simply trust some anon user who has decided that the Canino Line were and are pretenders, up to and including cognatic descendants. Wikipedia has other content requirements besides NPOV, and one of them is verifiability. In this case, given that neither of us is aware of any claims made by the Canino line, or of any particular claims made on their behalf, it is the responsibility of the person who believes such to provide substantiation. My view is that the article should make no mention at all of potential pretendership claims by the Lucien branch. It shouldn't say that they are not proper pretenders, because it shouldn't mention anything about pretendership at all. Instead, it should explain why, despite being senior to both Louis and Jerome's line, it has never been widely considered either dynastic or in line for the succession of the French throne. Otherwise, the article takes the weird form of an argument against a position that nobody substantial has ever taken. john k 21:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Line of succession to the Portuguese throne, presently

Have you checked the article (formerly: Line of succession to the Portuguese throne) Pretenders to the kingdom of Portugual ? It should presumably moved to "Miguelist line of succession to the Portuguese throne", or how? Can we allow that inherently problematic present name to any article? Marrtel 19:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC) - Septentrionalis made a move that NPOVed much of the problem. Marrtel 23:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] House of Savoy

Hello, just wondering if you know whether the House of Savoy still carries the title of King of Armenia or not? Along with Jerusalem, Cyprus etc. Thanks.--Eupator 20:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] styles

Lethiere, we do not use styles in the articles, we just explain them, once (usually, at the person's biography). It is not the task of Wikipedia to endorse anyone's desire to be highness, honourable or whatever, it is our task to explain that some (such as their government) uses/ has granted such style, and then where/how it is used. Therefore, article text must not say "going to Spain, Her Highness met His Excellency...". At certain times, there has been style wars becuse of overabundance of styles in all corners, requiring elimination of all mentions. We do not want the same to repeat. Hope you understand. Shilkanni 17:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] your odd request for citation

May I direct you to actually read the points that already were written in the relevant talkpage Talk:Grand_Duchess_Xenia_Alexandrovna_of_Russia#head_of_the_house when you added your demand for citation to the article text. You apparently did not realize, that it was through his father how Vasili Alexandrovich of Russia, youngest son of Xenia, was regarded (several years, until his own death in 1989) as the heir presumptive of the headship even by the Vladimorovichi. Such things happen when the agnatic lineage is dying out. As it died out in 1992, any dynastic descendant of Xenia, if had survived, would be head now. Shilkanni 03:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tatiana Konstantinovna

It seems that you are deliberately trying to keep several POV allegations in the article princess Tatiana Konstantinovna of Russia. Please desist such POV attempts. I remind you that articles need to be written NPOV.

I further warn you that such total reverts you have done, are not allowed. Such destroy work of others rather blindly.

If you continue in the way you have now done, your POV stance probably will be put to dispute resolving process. Shilkanni 00:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

And, while you are at it, kindly provide citations to support certain of the conclusions you are defending by your reverting. I have marked (most of) them with citation request. Shilkanni 01:14, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] BRoy titles templates poll

Hi, Lethiere! I've just started a poll about Category:British royal titles templates, and would really value your input - please do have your say! Cheers, – DBD does... 13:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Length of comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Farahnaz Pahlavi

Hi there. Your comments on the AFD for Farahnaz Pahlavi are unusually long. Please try to be more concise in the future. I know you're responding to someone who's leaving longer comments too (I have also asked them to trim their comments...), but even in that case it's much better if you keep your replies short. Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert 09:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Primogeniture

Man, you can't be serious, can you? "Null set" whatever, are you suggesting it would be impossible to find a source stating that primogeniture was not practiced by any monarchy before 1980, if it's true? If you don't have that source, it's just an assumption! And if we use your "null set" argument, apparently any assumption based on a limited amount of data is right, and does not need to be sourced..! Mackan 00:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] High / Privy Council of Sweden move request

New move proposal here: Talk:High_Council_of_Sweden#Requested_move_2 —  AjaxSmack  02:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

---

If you wish, please comment further on this topic here. ~  AjaxSmack  07:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Katharine of Aragon

Hello there. Just wondering if you could give some advice on a debate on the Catherine of Aragon page regarding the spelling of her name. There is some heated discussion on the discussion page, could you drop by and add your thoughts?? Cheers Paul75 01:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dauphins of France

Hello Lethiere;

How are you? I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Dauphins. If you could take a look at it, that would be wonderful. Many thanks! Charles 00:56, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Primogeniture (agnatic)

Stop reverting my edits and read the source text carefully:

"Agnatic: "Pertaining to the reckoning of relationship by male link(s) exclusively, regardless of sex of Ego and/or Alter. An agnate, then, is a person related by patrilineal descent (RK:147)." DT. "In Roman law agnati were kin who traced their relationship by descent through males only from a common ancestor, who were under the authority of a single paterfamilias, and who resided together. Agnati could be adopted. They included women, but no kin linked through a woman." GK:18. Contra. "uterine"."

Basically, what this means is that an agnate is a man or a woman related by patrilineal descent. The sentence I keep editing out from the article; "One's agnate may be male or female, provided that the kinship is calculated patrilineally, i.e., only through males back to a common ancestor" is poorly written. It should say: "An agnate may be male or female, provided that the kinship is calculated patrilineally, i.e., only through males back to a common ancestor". That's in line with the information in the source. However, in the context of the succession model Agnatic primogeniture, it's unneccessary to point this out, since only males can inherit and females are totally excluded. /FrinkMan

[edit] ATT Poll

You opposed Option 6 on the grounds that your preferred solutions were not included. What are they? I'll see if I can work them in. Jimbo's suggestion that there is no point to merging is included (you !vote against any merger in the first question, and to render WP:ATT inactive in the third.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• Well, the format has been decided by force majeure; but your message is not moot. Please reread WP:V; it says "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed", which is stronger authorization to delete than WP:ATT, which did caution against doing it uncivilly, and recommended it as a last resort. At least by implication, it suggests that material should not be removed when there is a source which exists but is not cited. I hope we can work together in incorporating these cautions into WP:V. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Just thought I'd say I really liked your contribution to the poll, it captures exactly what I feel many of the problems are. I think it ceased to be about the substance of the actual change quite some time ago. Orderinchaos 12:37, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Elisabeth of Bavaria

This was discussed at the relevant branch of the naming conventions, where it was left indecisive. This move proposal is a test to see what WP:NCNT should say about such cases; please !vote on that question, not on proceedural issues. If you oppose the move, as such, please say why, and it may well become part of the convention. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC)