Talk:Leprechaun

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[edit] Connection between leprechauns and workaday reality

Several recent edits of this page seem to focus on the perceived weakness of connection between leprechauns and workaday reality. Specifically the insertion of the term imaginary (is this necessary in the context of creatures from folklore?), and the deletion of a reference to their declining numbers.

I can only assure you that there are any number of people in the west of Ireland who will openly attest to the reality of leprechauns (and they are not without respectable precedent when one considers the Conan Doyle - fairy photographs incident). Moreover, within a short drive of Dublin (a city as large as San Francisco) one will find protected hillocks in rich farm land that will never be ploughed, or otherwise disturbed, because of the belief they contain faerie communities.

Since I am new to this effort I'm trying to get a better handle on community norms. I think it would be wrong & offensive to precede, for example, a reference to Jesus with the phrase "the delusional son of a poor Jewish carpenter" primarily because it represents a point of view.

I myself have seen the little creatures and I'm sad to see serious, lifesaving, articles been reverted.

I will very much appreciate any of your feedabck —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.135.235.188 (talk • contribs) 01:22, 5 November 2002.

Of course it's wrong to label Leprechauns with the term as 'imaginary'. After all, they are a very sympathetic, neat little folk ... :) In my opinion, the best, and totally encyclopedic, is to precede the article with the phrase as "In the Irish mythology, Leprechauns are ...". It's totally NPOV, just as writing

"In Christian Religion, Jesus Christ is ...", because it depicts the origins of the person (or folk), and of the belief, while not taking stance about its 'actuality' or 'illusionarity'. Btw, there's an Irish greeting, "May the Leprechauns follow your path" :) Greetings, Critto

Another thing: how do you feel, was Tolkien inspired by the tales about Leprechauns when 'inventing' (or actually inventing) Hobbits? To me, they bear much resemblance: little folks, who live underground, and who are good-natured and friendly though a bit reed (ie. hiding from view, for it's easy to frighten them). They are only two significant differences: Hobbits didn't have beards, and they did never make or wore any brogues (shoes). But, maybe those differences were created purposedly, to give Hobbits more 'genuinity'? How do you folks think? Greetz again (and adh mór:)), Critto
I completely agree. It is entirely possible to rewrite the article in the way you suggest and keep it entirely encyclopedic. Maintaining the wiki-link Irish mythology would also be important for those looking for further information.
With regard to Tolkien: I have no idea what historical or folk-cultural things may have inspired his work, but if there is any connection, it would seem more likely to me to have been with regard to Tolkien's Dwarves, and not the Hobbits. The Dwarves, after all, are the ones who have beards, were reclusive, and had immense stores of hidden wealth.
func(talk) 18:23, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I think dwarves were in fact based on the mythological cratures called "dwarves". ;)
The edits may have been a bit terse, but re-read the page and see if it sounds like something from an encyclopedia. I think the problem is that no encyclopedia would write about leprechauns as if they were real, which seems to be the presumption on this page. The usual 'Wikipedia' way of presenting an unusual view (such as those who believe in faerie folk) is to attribute it: say "Some Irish people believe in fairies" rather than "Fairy folk live in hills in Ireland". To use your example, you shouldn't find "Jesus Christ was the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, divine in nature, and the Son of God" here, you should find "Most Christians maintain that Jesus Christ was divine, some see him as a merely human teacher, some people doubt he was a historical figure, etc." - though probably with better attributions than those. Anyway, hope this helps a bit, you might also want to read NPOV for some of the philosophical background....though NPOV too often seems to be a synonym for 'My Point of View' <G>. -- Someone else 23:56 Nov 6, 2002 (UTC)

Many thanks and point taken. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Amcireland (talk • contribs) 21:46, 10 November 2002.

Workaday Reality has very little to do with it -- the problem was that an image popularized by "Darby O'Gill and the Little People" and an American breakfast cereal company is being presented as an insight into Irish folklore and traditions. I think that it's important to emphasise the distinction between the actual Irish origin of the word and what it meant, from the modern wee-folk-with-green-waistcoats nonsense.

To infer from Ireland's respect for "faerie rings" and other ancient sites that they believe in actual little green men with pots of gold is absurd, and any tourist should take it with a grain or twelve of salt when a local tells you about leprechauns. Winding up naïve tourists is a universal pastime. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.116.29.1 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 9 March 2005.

[edit] Comments from an Irishman

"[They] make shoes and brogues". I'm guessing "brogues" is an english pluralisation for an english spelling of "bróg" (the Irish for "shoe"). If my guess is right, then that sentence is silly. And about the wooly jumpers that leprechauns wear... not the ones I've seen! But seriously, the article seems to describe Santa's Elves. Darby O'Gill and the Little People is a worthwhile film for people that want to see leprechauns. The king of the leprechauns wears a green suit with tails and a top hat. I don't remember what the other leprechauns wore, but it wasn't wooly jumpers. And, although always short, they don't have to be old men. They mightn't always even be men. (Although the women may indeed have beards...) Lucky Charms copied the leprechaun's look for tradition, not the other way around. If I have more time someday, I'll come back and edit the article. But until then, I thought I should at least leave my comments here. The books of Herminie T. Kavanagh are good sources of folk tales including leprechauns. Gronky 14:59, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

I've been stuck reverting sophomoric edits by a bunch of anonymous users in the past couple of days. Apparently, it's some sort of in-joke that started here, but the joke only works (that is, the "How I vandalized Wikipedia" thread will only make sense) if the anon's lame attempt at vandalism remains on the article. Knowing the ego of people like this, as more people read the thread, he'll be all but forced to revert back to the vandalized version of this article or risk getting laughed at. It's just childish idiocy, but I have better things to do than deal with it, so I'll seek to have the anonymous IPs blocked if they touch this article again.

Evidently, when some people see the Wikipedia, they think to themselves, "wouldn't it be funny if I ruined it." When I saw the same, my thoughts were more like "wouldn't it be great if I could contribute to it." The Tragedy of the Commons rears its ugly head again; ces't la vie. --Ardonik.talk() 16:44, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

it's a very sad thing that vandalism still exists in our community. It's awful when it happens anywhere, but it's even more despisable when its victims are the articles about the innocent creatures as Leprechauns. I hope that the vandal has been blocked already? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Critto (talk • contribs) 10:42, 26 September 2004.

[edit] Suggestion

A new page for "Leprechaun (movie)" and an addition to the "Leprechaun" page of reference to the Leprechaun (movie) in the "See Also" or whatever section it's called. --Demonslave 11:54, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)

I hope I could see more pictures of Leprechauns in Wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.98.154.196 (talk • contribs) 02:59, 11 December 2005.

[edit] Etymology of the word leprechaun

True etymology: 1604, from Ir. lupracan, metathesis from O.Ir. luchorpan lit. "a very small body," from lu "little" + corpan, dim. of corp "body," from L. corpus "body". Commonly spelled lubrican in 17c. Eng.

Folk etymology: Ir. folk etymology, from leith "half" + brog "brogue," because the spirit was "supposed to be always employed in making or mending a single shoe."

Source: http://www.etymonline.com/

(The Modern Ir. spelling is leipreachán) -- Picapica 19:08, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] REQUEST FOR FURTHER CLARIFICATION

The article states that the modern image of a leprechaun poorly reflects Irish mythology. It would be nice if you could clarify the misconceptions created by this image, and paint an accurate picture of how the Irish originally envisioned them. I imagine most people seeking information in an encyclopedia would appreciate that approach. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gwalihir (talk • contribs) 01:18, 20 July 2005.

Agree, its difficult to find this kind of information on the web though as most searches bring up everything but that ;) - FrancisTyers 22:26, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Notre Dame Leprechaun

I think the Notre Dame mascot originated with Irish settlers in the USA, but has little to do with Irish culture otherwise - the mascot of "the fighting Irish" is most likely to induce cringing and groaning when Irish people (as in Irish born, not merely of Irish ancestry) see it - what might appear to be an indominable figure to the team looks like an infamous ninteenth century caricature of an Irishman as a simian brute. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Autarch (talk • contribs) 15:21, 13 December 2005.

[edit] Balance

This article has way too much on the popular culture aspects of the mythology rather than the actual mythology itself. I'm trying to find some decent references to improve this and would be grateful to any assistance. - FrancisTyers 21:07, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Integrated some of the popular culture section and added a couple of images from [1] - FrancisTyers 21:43, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]

3. THE FIELD OF BOLIAUNS 

SOURCE T. Crofton Croker's 'Fairy Legends and Traditions of the South of Ireland, ed. 
Wright, pp. 135-9. In the original the gnome is a Cluricaune, but as a friend of Mr Batten's 
has recently heard the tale told of a Leprechaun, I have adopted the better-known title.

REMARKS 'Leprechaun' is from the Irish 'leith bhrogan', the one-shoemaker (cf. brogue), according
to Dr Hyde. He is generally seen (and to this day, too) working at a single shoe, cf. Croker's
story 'Little Shoe', l.c. pp. 142-4. According to a writer in the Revue Celtique, i, 256, the true 
etymology is 'luchor pan', 'little man'. Dr Joyce also gives the same etymology in 'Irish
Names and Places, i, 183, where he mentions several places named after them.

(From Celtic Fairy Tales, Collected, Annotated and Introduced by Joseph Jacobs.)

- FrancisTyers 00:43, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I wonder is "luchor pan" a mistake for "lú chorpán", the version given in the Collins Dictionary as the Middle Irish? Palmiro | Talk 01:45, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Could well be, feel free to change the section how you like, unfortunately I don't have access to that dictionary. Thanks for taking the time to comment :) - FrancisTyers 01:57, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Ah, I see you've already done it, thanks :) - FrancisTyers 02:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've removed the Revue Celtique citation as it was second-hand and almost certainly a mistake (in where it separated the two words; whether the presumed mistake arose with the original author or with Joseph Jacobs is another question). Palmiro | Talk 02:19, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed text pending reference

  • It is said that like other mythological races in the Irish tradition, leprechauns are considered to be partly real, physical creatures and partly spirits.
  • Another possible source suggests the origin as a humourous pun for a children's story, leipreach meaning to jump and leipreachan meaning one who jumps around.
  • They are said to serve as defenders of the faerie community i.e. a type of palace guard to the faerie queen.
Seems some of the previous stuff was copyvio from here. - FrancisTyers 19:34, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Stories about leprechauns

I'd be interested to read in more detail about the structure of traditional leprechaun stories. My impression is that they are superficially similar to fables, but more often humorous or cautionary tales without Aesop's moralizing. If I find anything about it I'll add a cite. Tom Harrison (talk) 02:50, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't really know much about the structure. From what I've read stories involving them generally more conversational (as the article says) than other folklore, such as epics, cycles or more "concrete" myths such as the ones involving finn etc. If you do find anything, please feel free to add, or if you find something that is missing, make a note on the talk page/peer review/my user page. Thanks again for the edits and looking over it :) - FrancisTyers 02:54, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tourism

  • We should try to get away from the concept of a leprechaun Ireland. [9]
  • The Americans who had come expecting something more traditional were taken aback. It was all just a bit too “foreign” with not a leprechaun in sight. [10]
  • That is a matter of some importance from the point of view of the tourist industry. For many years, we were afflicted with the miserable trivialities of our tourist advertising. Sometimes it descended to the lowest depths, to the caubeen and the shillelagh, not to speak of the leprechaun. [11]

Sifted from [12] - FrancisTyers 03:39, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Right, who let the Americans loose?

Will you crowd out in the forever expanding 13 colonies give this leprechaun bollocks a rest? You really take the piss. And I really want to slap you all. El Gringo 04:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More info

[edit] Leprechaun and the Basque "Laminak"

Just been talking to some Basques about the "Laminak", who they describe as small fairy like people who are said to live in the Basque country and do people good turns during the night. Examples that I was given : repairing shoes, ploughing fields, building a bridge ... usually in reparation of something cheeky that the Laminak have done. Sounded so similar to the Leprechaun stories that I thought it might be interesting to look into more closely. When you hear Basque music you immediately think of Irish music so its not impossible that there are other cultural links.

Have found some pages in French on the subject if anyone is interested http://jarailet.club.fr/html/mytho1.htm#LAMINA

See Laminak :) Might warrant a see also, but that page doesn't really describe anything similar. - FrancisTyers 23:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent addition

[14]

Current theory dictates that while anyone keeps his eye fixed upon them, they cannot escape, but the moment the eye is withdrawn they vanish. Some debate this point and claim that the leprechaun cannot simply vanish when the eye is removed but rather when mental focus is removed from them, also debated is their vanishing capabilities. While leprechauns are magical entities they lack the totality of magic that a farie or nymph does, rather the leprechaun is more grounded in reality and the magic comes more from the elite trickery capabilities.

In the oldworld views their pastime was in the making of shoes for faerie folk, although in modern representations of a leprechaun's life its favorite pastime is to play pranks on people.

Among the most popular of beliefs about leprechauns is that they have a pot of gold and hide their gold in secret locations. Being of a magical nature leprechauns don't actualy use or need the money but the money is used for the tricking of humans and/or other entities. One of the leprechaun's goals is to aquire gold but to never aquire gold through honnest means(do not be fooled into thinking the leprechaun does nothing honnest but realize that none of the gold is aquired honestly). Leprechauns do not steal, they use acts like riged chance games, set-ups, and cheating to trick people out of their gold. The hidden nature of the gold is more or less just a bargnining chip for the leprechaun.

Note that a leprechaun will never lie when cought and will either answer a question or remain silent, keep in mind there is a leprechaun code of conduct when dealing with humans that is not entirely understood at this point.

Could have a place in the article provided it was rewritten in a more encyclopaedic tone and was sourced :) - FrancisTyers 10:25, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

More recent stuff:

there are no female leprechauns at all.there are also cluricauns, cluricauns might steal or borrow anything creating mayhem, like crazy, in homes during the night time,going through wine cellars, and pantries. they will also take sheep, goats, and any other livestock outside the dwelling, riding them throught the country night.

- FrancisTyers 21:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mobile, AL "sightings"

Is this notable? It was reported by the local news, as can be seen in the clip used as a reference, so there's certainly a claim to local notability there. I find the story funny and a little interesting, and I'd like to see it get a mention somewhere on WP, but for this particular article it does seem awfully minor. I wish we had a subarticle that was about various things like this relating to leprechauns, modern day claims or folklore, and we could have a mention of this there. Everyking 08:07, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

There is Leprechauns in popular culture, which is basically just a list, but at the end, it has what I guess is a reference to this same thing, something about a remix of a news clip. Should we remove it from here and add more about it there? Everyking 08:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that would be appropriate. - FrancisTyers 10:11, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture of Leprechaun

Any source for better picture of a Leprechaun. The present one is not my idea of a 20th century Leprechaun. He looks a bit portly and out of shape, doesn't do justice to the idea of a nimble, quick witted, wise 'being'. Bluegold 16:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd say it was a fairly stereotypical depiction, got any better images? It would be nice to have a good photo of some leprechaun based tourist tat for the popular culture section. If you get a chance could you take one, it'll be a while until I'm next over there... - FrancisTyers 16:52, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
To be honest, here in the Emerald Isle the stereotype is different. He is usually a lean, quick witted clever rascal of sorts and somewhat more animated than the picture used. Have come accross some copyright-free pics on the WWW. The guy with the stick, (over the gold coins), looks interesting, let you decide. Have a look here http://www.eirefirst.com/clipart.html. ---Bluegold 19:17, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Leprechaun sighting in Ecuador

A few years back I overheard a sighting in Ecuador by way of radio show: Coast to Coast AM. From what I recall, it was a rather mischievous leprechaun that liked to pull the hair of women, or at least that's pretty much all I can recall as it was a couple years back ago...

If anyone has any information in pertinance to this, I'd really think it would be helpful for the segment of "Recent Sightings" in the Leprechauns in popular culture since I think the Mobile, Alabama case to be hardly believeable.. It can tie-into cryptozoology, I should think. DrWho42 06:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Myths

I think the stories within the article should be formatted differently than the info paragraphs, perhaps italicized. Also, the shoemaking reference reefers to working on a single shoe three times in the article, seems a tad redundant. I think the first mention of that (in the intro) should be deleted. ReverendG 16:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the stories should be italicised or quoted as these are paraphrased and not quotes. Perhaps a subsection could be created? like "Examples" or something. I've removed one of the reference "shoes", you were right it is mentioned quite a bit, but I think it belongs in the lead, and it is part of the etymology. I have also cut the "single shoe" bit out of the lead. - FrancisTyers · 16:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
okay, made subsection, you're right, looks a lot better. thanks. ReverendG 18:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I made a couple of changes, is it still ok? I'd prefer not to have a bulleted list if possible, and section titles should be in sentence case. - FrancisTyers · 18:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
i thought the bullets make it easier to read, but it's your call. ReverendG 18:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] OED?

I left the above paragraph, but this is an important note: As for "leath bhrógan" being the Oxford English Dictionary's etymology reference, this is misleading. Go to your local library and actually check the definitive Oxford English Dictionary as I just did. In fact, leath bhrógan is only listed as a possible root. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.59.198.34 (talk • contribs).

I did actually get this out of the OED (online edition 2005), but I unfortunately no longer have access. Could you quote the part where it gives the other etymologies as I can't remember. - Francis Tyers · 23:07, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] GA

I am pssing the article through to GA as it looks to meet all the criteria. The pictures are especially great. The prose isn't completely brilliant and could use more transitions and a few factual assertions lack references (though most have them), but the concerns don't prevent GA status in my view. Eluchil404 14:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural Disclamer?

Hi, will log in later to do some editing but (as an Irishman) to be honest i think that it should be emphasised within the article that Irish people on the whole absolutlty cringe at the mention of the word leprechaun -obviously this needs to be put in less POV terms than above but I would suggest some mention of the leprechaun as being more successfull as an american marketing tool than an Irish cultural symbol.

also AFAIK (and i will provide links when I edit) the Leprechaun is functionally NOT an Irish mythological creature , not appearing in anything but folk tales (Multiple theories hold that with the onset of christanity in Ireland the leprechaun emerged as a bastardisation of indeginous mythology , will add links later) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PreachanStoirm (talk • contribs).

I'd certainly be interested in reading more about this. Please respond with references :) I tried to make the article as impartial as possible, but it is very difficult to find good information on the web (just try searching for 'leprechaun'). - Francis Tyers · 20:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
This would be an interesting article to get hold of. - Francis Tyers · 20:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clurichaun Conflict

The Clurichaun article says that Clurichauns "are... Unlike their cousins, solitary...", and this Leprechaun article says that Leprechauns are solitary. I'm not well-versed in either, but I'm looking at that and thinking that one of those two phrases are incorrect. Would someone with a bit more research in the field be willing to correct whichever article's wrong? 66.168.136.176 07:24, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I removed the part from the Clurichaun page. - Francis Tyers · 09:16, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No Rainbows?

After reading the article I was disapointed that nothing was mentioned reguarding the idea of a leprechaun's pot of gold being located at the end of a rainbow. This is a very major aspect of the leprechaun myth here in the United States. Even if this is something Americans have come up with and is not a true part of the Irish folklore I still feel it should be mentioned somewhere.

74.139.205.189 18:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you know of any academic sources that discuss this? - Francis Tyers · 18:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Who says it has to be an 'academic' source? when alot of good 'handed down' info is mislaid.

Culnacréann 00:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually a lot of the 'handed down' information was recorded. See for example most of the sources in the article. The pot of gold and rainbow strikes me as a later addition, and as such will probably be documented. I will have a search around to see what I can find. - Francis Tyers · 00:45, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
  • John J. Winberry "The Elusive Elf: Some Thoughts on the Nature and Origin of the Irish Leprechaun". Folklore, Vol. 87, No. 1 (1976), pp. 63-75

Would be good to come across. - Francis Tyers · 00:47, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pot of gold.

I've always being told the same story over here in Ireland about finding pots of gold and Leprechauns at the end of rainbows. After reading it and noticing, I want ahead and added it in on the - Examples of tales involving leprechauns.--McNoddy 16:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Related article nominated for deletion

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Leprechauns in popular culture. As that debate may have an impact on this article (particularly when people propose merging), I thought it would be only fair that the editors of this page be made aware of the debate. Mangojuicetalk 14:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed info

"The Fibbling ("faeb-a-lingh"), although less widely known, shows similar traits, although by contrast they were not solitary in nature."

I removed this from the article as I couldn't find any sources at all on the internet. This is not to say that it isn't real, but that it would be good to get a quote from a source to verify this. - Francis Tyers · 16:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Career info

regarding Their trade is that of a cobbler or shoemaker. I wonder where this came from. Maybe I'm not up on my Leprechaun lore but I've never heard of one ever having a job, let alone a specific job. JohnCub 22:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Pretty sure this is from one of the references at the bottom. - Francis Tyers · 12:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question

I have heard that only irish can hold the gaze of a leprechaun. Should this be added to the article under mythology?Gopher squisher007 01:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that? - Francis Tyers · 12:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
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