Talk:Leo Tolstoy

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Contents 1 Opening comments 2 More 3 New comment 4 The link to "Childhood" is incorrect. 5 Copyvio 6 "What Then Must We Do?" 7 Tolstoy on Nietzsche 8 Dates 9 Opinions sought about recently added link 10 Serfs / peasants 11 Bias! 12 New quote 13 Leo Tolstoy's ( Fables And Fairy Tales?) 14 on his attraction to men 15 wealth 16 sexual conduct 17 Tolstoy's definition of 'God'. 18 two tolstoys 19 Seinfeld 20 Philosophy section 21 Conversion Section 22 Resurrection 23 Cultural depictions of Leo Tolstoy 24 Zulu Tolstoy

[edit] Opening comments

God, you'd think Tolstoy didn't write any novels, reading this article. Wish I had time to remedy the outrageous deficiency of mention of the actual reason he's famous. --Larry Sanger

I agree completely with Larry Sanger. Added two lines, but still no justice. I know that there's no longer any copyright on the Britannica article, but it still makes me leery about the Wikipedia content. Couldn't someone else, with appropriate knowledge, rewrite this article?

His political contributions, while maybe not well-known today (because only the length of "War and Peace" is palatable to the modern brain), are significant, and by far outweigh the influence of his writing. Significantly, his philosophy birthed the modern concept of non-violent resistance, and he had a profound influence in shaping the philosophy of Mahatma Gandhi (through a long-running correspondence that lasted until Tolstoy's death that began with Tolstoy's A Letter to a Hindu). 90% of people might know Tolstoy for Anna Karenina and War and Peace, but this is hardly a guide for what belongs in an encyclopedia (i.e., what people already know and expect to find there). Not that I'm saying no discussion of him as an author is in order - I just think that his politics are more important. Graft

Graft, this is clearly your own idiosyncratic opinion and not something that should be reflected in this article. Philosophers do not generally regard Tolstoy as a major philosopher. The only context in which I have read or taught his philosophy is his article "What is Art?" in a class about aesthetics. If not for his literature, his ideas would almost certainly be long since forgotten. Yes, the fact that Tolstoy is famous for his novels is precisely why this article be focused first and foremost on his art. Not because he articulated a political view that you like. --Larry Sanger

Yeah, you're right. Graft

Actually, his political and philosophical views were frequently reflected in his art. See today's additions. And that a Russian nobleman (and one of the greatest novelists of all time) sided with his serfs in the half century before the Russian Revolution, surely that is news. However, and nonetheless, there is still a paucity of information about his art. Ortolan88 05:45 Dec 7, 2002 (UTC)

Thanks very much Graft and Ortolan--by no means do I want to say that Tolstoy's political thought was unimportant or deserves no coverage in Wikipedia, and I'm liking this article more and more. --Larry Sanger

I would argue that whereas Tolstoy is best if not exclusively known amongst the wider public for War and Peace and Anna Karenina, that he has been far more influential in the modern world for his non-violent resistance ideas than for those books, and that the article should reflect this. The fact that most people do not know that he was the creator of these ideas is irrelevant to their importance or the fact that he was their originator, and something that wikipedia can help remedy. Right now the section on his later life needs a lot of improving. I have done a bit and will try to do a bit more. --SqueakBox 17:14, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More

Thanks. Also took a most inadequate crack at War and Peace. Ortolan88

This is a really good looking article. It doesn't seem like it needs all that much to make the jump to authoritative, and from there to FA maybe. I think that further mention should be made of Tolstoy's philosophy in relation to the way Russian aristocrats face death. This is particularly important in his later works such as The Death of Ivan Ilych. In many ways, his analysis of Ivan Ilych's dilemma resembles the proto-existentialism of Kirkegaard. However, I am not sure if this theme exists in works previous to The Death of Ivan Ilych or how (if at all) Tolstoy interacted with the early literature of Existentialism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.112.94.117 (talk • contribs) 14 April 2006.

[edit] New comment

There is no way in hell that "War and Peace" includes 580 characters, unless "includes" also covers people who are only seen once, briefly, at a party or in a battle or so forth. I doubt there are even that many people who speak, although I'd only be a little surprised if that turned out to be the number of people who either speak or are named. Is there a source for that number?

[edit] The link to "Childhood" is incorrect.

At the bottom of the article there is a list of books written by Tolstoy. I clicked on "Childhood" and it took me to an entry for the generic "childhood" not the Tolstoy book. Fyi. -Raj

Fixed. It now links to Childhood (novel), which doesn't exist yet. -- Sam 18:15, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Copyvio

I have deleted the section entitled "private life" as it appears to be directly taken out of another website: [1](Scroll down to Tolstoy)Refdoc 21:03, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "What Then Must We Do?"

Is this the same piece that is also known as "What is to be done?" If so, I believe the latter is at least an equally well-known title, partly because it was later borrowed by Lenin. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:08, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

Nope, "what is to be done," a favourite of lenin's, was written by the subversive journalist chernychevsky. (sp) An interesting character in his own right, but without much bearing on Tolstoy. Very important to Dostoevsky's work though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.159.98.230 (talk • contribs) 12 September 2006.

[edit] Tolstoy on Nietzsche

Tolstoy once said, "Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal." Does anyone know the context of this quote and when it was said? (anon 28 May 2005)

[edit] Dates

Normally I would expect to see both modern Gregorian dates and "Old Style" dates from the Julian calendar for a Russian of this era. The article used to give his birth and death date as (September 9 (August 28, O.S.), 1828 – November 20 (November 7, O.S.), 1910), which I would consider correct (although I think it could be better formatted). The O.S. dates have now been removed. Maybe I missed something encyclopedia-wide at a policy level—if I did, please let me know— but otherwise, I intend to restore this. -- Jmabel | Talk June 28, 2005 05:56 (UTC)

• Restoring. -- Jmabel | Talk June 30, 2005 06:32 (UTC)

[edit] Opinions sought about recently added link

Tolstoy and His Message is not, as described, "A very comprehensive biography of Tolstoy, with excellent information on his philosophy." It is a (pro-Tolstoy, Christian) polemic. It is also rife with pop-ups, ads, etc. I'd be inclined to remove it; failing that, it should certainly be more accurately described. I'd like to get opinions from at least two more experienced Wikipedians before I act on this. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:45, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Do not wait on people, they don't have time anyway. Garbage site should be deleted on spot. Pavel Vozenilek 18:07, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Serfs / peasants

[2]: w.r.t. Anna Karenina, "works alongside his serfs" became "works alongside the peasants". Were they not his serfs? Or should this be reverted? -- Jmabel | Talk 19:57, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bias!

Reading this article you'd think Tolstoy should be deified. It manages to glance over him writing about the evils of adultery while he was sleeping with anyone he could talk into it. This is a HEAVILY biased article and I hope that someone with more time than I do will edit it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.35.165.82 (talk • contribs) 18 Nov 2005.

Find someone citable who condemns his sexual practices and add it to the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:16, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

This might not really - totally - apply to what the first poster of this thread said, but the part about his marriage with Sophie, and her relationship with her husband, is actually quite questionable... I would cite book II of The Second Sex, by Simone de Beauvoir, where she herself cites many times Sophie's journal to talk about another subject. In those many citations, Sophie says she is totally disliking her marriage and relationships with her husband and her kids, that she was extremely shy in front of the gloriuous reputation of her husband, and so on. I can not cite the exact pages (althought the citations are scathered over all the book, at one point...) and the version I have is the original in French. But, yes, I think there are some bias in the Sophie/marriage part of this article, although this wouldn't affect at all the genius of Tolstoy in his writing and ideologic fields. And sorry for my bad English, it's not my mother language !! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.201.175.7 (talk • contribs) 16 January 2007.

[edit] New quote

I was reading Anton Chekhov's "A Life In Letters" recently, and he had a memorable quote (at least to me) about Tolstoy on pg. 434 of the paperback edition. I added into the section where contemporaries comment on him. It's a bit lengthy, so I figured I'd note it and give a source and see if anyone objected. Frailgesture 04:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Leo Tolstoy's ( Fables And Fairy Tales?)

I have in my posession A 1st Printing (june, 1962) of Leo Tolsty's Fables and Fairy Tales, A New Tranlation By Ann Dunnigan. I would like to find out as much as i can about it. It is in excelent condition, Almost New, If anyone can tell me anything about this book please e-mail me at adt437@mchsi.com

I'd suggest that you look at prices on AbeBooks.com. - Jmabel | Talk 01:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] on his attraction to men

I have come across the following excerpt from his diaries, written before his marriage, at the age of 23: "I have never been in love with a woman,” the entry read, “but I have quite often fallen in love with a man. . . . I feel in love with a man before I knew what pederasty was. . . . Beauty has always been a powerful factor in my attractions; there is D—, for example. I shall never forget the night we left Pirogovo together, when, wrapped up in my blanket, I wanted to devour him with kisses and weep. Sexual desire was not totally absent, but it was impossible to say what role it played." [3]It seems like a very significant aspect of his personal history, and worthy of inclusion in the article. Comments? Haiduc 23:18, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Although I was enraged when Category:Lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender people was deleted in ru.wiki a week ago and left the project because of that, I'm equally annoyed with the tendency to homosexualize the straightest people in history. There is hardly a man who recorded his inner life so meticulously as Tolstoy; his diaries take up thirty volumes. We know all about his sexual preferences or lack thereof, so two lines written when he was a youth hardly count that much. It may be reasonably doubted that there has been a man who didn't experience attraction to motss once or twice in his life. Tolstoy, the father of thirteen children, hardly stands out of line in this respect. As a sidenote, he was the first high-profile Russian writer to describe a homosexual couple - in Anna Karenina, that is, as pointed out by Nabokov - yet the fact is too trivial to warrant attention. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 14:03, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

It may well be that everything lends itself to being homosexualized, the only thing we know to date is that everything also lends itself to being heterosexualized. Tolstoy's desires are fair game, especially since they do not at all seem to have been a "flash in the pan" but rather a theme in his early life, and perhaps, indirectly, later. The fact that he had 13 children is not an indication of anything. The fact that he says that he was attracted by masculine beauty but rejected it in favor of an intellectual attraction to women is thunderous. Look at this: [4] Haiduc 18:49, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

As anyone who observes contemporary entertainment media knows, homosexuals are sworn to display their behavior as much as possible in order to eventually have it considered acceptable. It seems that every great man is now said to have been homosexual. It is possible that many have passed through that phase in adolescence. Adult homosexuality is the inability to develop beyond that teenage behavior. Tolstoy was not a homosexual.Lestrade 20:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

There's no doubt that Tolstoy had serious issues (as the "contemporary entertainment media" would put it) when it came to sex. It might be worth devoting a section of the article to themes of sexuality in Tolstoy's life and work, from his early homoerotic feelings (kept in perspective) through his later promiscuity, and ultimately his "Kreutzer Sonata" phase. I think it would add to the article, or it could be split off. Any takers? And Lestrade, if you have a comment about Tolstoy, this is the place. If you feel the need to disparage homosexuals, homosexuality, or the refusal of homosexuals to hide their behavior when you're around, do it elsewhere. MastCell 03:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you MastCell. And whether he can be labeled as "gay" or "straight" is beside the point. The history of his sexuality in both directions is information that's interesting enough to include in the article.--Will.i.am 02:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Tolstoy was the straightest man ever. His trouble is that he kept recording his most intimate and passing feelings in a diary for years. Those who wish to prove that he was a homosexual should consult his diaries in their entirety. As a very young man he once mentions that he felt a minute attraction to a peasant when they returned from a station together. That doesn't make him homosexual for life. Young Flaubert, for instance, openly declared in his letter to a friend that he dreams about a harem of three hundred young boys. Now you should pronounce him homosexual as well. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 10:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Tolstoy relates that as a youth he once fell in love, crying with desire for a young man and covering him with kisses. There is other material as well. Why keep it covered, just because he repressed his feelings? Haiduc 10:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

He wasn't gay, and I doubt it really matters. I would read his entire set of diary pages if I were you. There are people then who used this to show a sort of "feeling" rather than a form of homosexuality. It seems to me that to people today, almost every person in history has to be gay for some odd reason. This kind of frightens me, as history is history, and trying to change or modify a certain feeling often change it into something else nowadays. IronCrow 22:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] wealth

Article: "Tolstoy was an extremely wealthy member of the Russian nobility." According to C.P.Snow (The Realists, Macmillan 1978) Tolstoy was not so rich as some; Turgenev owned 5000 serfs whereas Tolstoy owned only 300. Tolstoy appears to have been more a country landowner than a great magnate. More a Levin than a Vronsky.

[edit] sexual conduct

Discussion: "Find someone citable who condemns his sexual practices and add it to the article. jmabel". C.P.Snow does just this.

Comma splice much?

just in case u guys didnt know, he changed his ways. he ended up taking a vow of chasitity.

[edit] Tolstoy's definition of 'God'.

Just been reading through some of Tolstoy's work, but still have a lot to read. But what was his definition of 'God'? I'm still reading through his stuff, but so far it doesn't seem like the traditional idea held by Christians of a man up in the sky that controls everything. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.56.62.4 (talk • contribs) 13 June 2006.

"God is the infinite ALL. Man is only a finite manifestation of Him. "Or better yet: "God is that infinite All of which man knows himself to be a finite part." Leo Tolstoy said this on his death bed. If you would like to know anything more about Tolstoy's philosophy, let me know and i can tell you. 68.63.123.165 08:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] two tolstoys

Why are there two articles on tolstoy??? one is called tolstoy and the other is called leo tolstoy perhaps they should be merged... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.123.11.127 (talk • contribs) 15 June 2006.

As it says at the top of Tolstoy, "This article is about the Tolstoy family; for the famous novelist, see Leo Tolstoy." Different topic, two articles are justified. - Jmabel | Talk 23:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Seinfeld

Elain told Jerry that "War and Peace" was originally titled "War - what is it good for". It was not Jerry who told Elaine. - BJA —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.153.212.7 (talk • contribs) 22 July 2006.

No, it was Jerry who told Elaine that, but he said it just to mess with her. Then she said it to the Russian guy and he thought she was a fool.

[edit] Philosophy section

Actually, Tolstoy considered hanging himself BEFORE his conversion to Christianity. That's what it says in Confessions. Afterwards he was happy because he found the meaning of life.

I don't think it is important to put Schopenhaeur in this article. He was interested in Schopenhaeur for a while, but it was nothing compared to his over-the-top obsession with the teachings of Jesus, which he would base his entire philosophy and his entire life on. Does anyone object to me removing Schopenhauer? 68.63.123.165 07:58, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I object. (John User:Jwy talk) 14:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

it would make sense if you said why you object.

[edit] Conversion Section

Does the conversion section strike anyone as being unencyclopedic? It seems like it reads into reality a little too much. • Leon 13:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I saw the same. It keeps saying his "ratioanl" view on life was twarted by his conversion, however, I find that to be a bit biased, and it probably a bit offensive to some who view his conversion as being "rational." IronCrow 22:06, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Resurrection

Although he worked on it for ten years and it's characteristically monolithic, there doesn't seem to be anything about Resurrection (novel) in this article. Anyone want to remedy that? O'Hara 00:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of Leo Tolstoy

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 16:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zulu Tolstoy

I think this falls under allusion.. does anyone know what does "a Zulu Tolstoy" refer to? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SiriusAlphaCMa (talk • contribs) 02:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

I presume it refers to a remark (I believe by Harold Bloom, but I could be wrong) defending the Western "Great Books" canon against multicultural inclusionism by saying that the Zulus have not produced a Tolstoy or a Shakespeare. - Jmabel | Talk 23:11, 17 December 2006 (UTC)