Talk:Leni Riefenstahl

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[edit] African project

Didn't she also make movies (or photographs) of tribes in Africa? I seem to remember that she returned repeatedly to one tribe in particular. --AxelBoldt


Yes heard today on radio she filmed the Nubas in Africa.

Film and photos, yes. She published a book about them; the funding for the film was cut. --KQ

[edit] Her first film

It seems that many biographical entiries refer "Der Heilige Berg" as her first movie performance.

Britannica seems to suggest that it is "Peak of Destiny," which I think is incorrect. I've sometimes read that Peak of Destiny is the piece that captured Leni's attention to movies, and she talked to Arnold Franck eventually. And the piece is released in 1925.

Now, Imdb says, along with this article, Tragödie im Hause Habsburg (1924) is the first. That is even before she saw "Peak.." I'm curious to know more about this particular piece and the role she played in it, if she did. Anyone has a pointer? Thanks. Tomos 04:31, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

[edit] World War II propaganda films?

During World War II she filmed several propaganda films and documents for the German propaganda machine - this is news to me. could you name and describe some of those films? her imdb entry lists none. (It does list her Wehrmacht documentary Day of Freedom, but that is from 1935.) And this biography at about.com, for example, contradicts that statement: (After "Olympia") Leni Riefenstahl started and stopped more films during the war, but didn't complete any nor did she accept any more assignments for documentaries.

"someone apparently forgot about her role in WWII..." - indeed. there is still a huge gap in the text. I believe she was working on Tiefland from 1942 on, but more should be said. regards, High on a tree 01:48, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Erik Barnouw's book Documentary, a canonical work in the field, doesn't mention Riefenstahl doing anything whatsoever during the war; the only mention is that Capra in the states spent a lot of time studying her work on Triumph of the Will, from the previous decade. I don't know if she simply wasn't filming anything or if it's been lost. I doubt that she filmed something that was later destroyed; there are rather meticulous records kept of so many other aspects of World War II, especially from Germany and including records of various aspects of the Holocaust. None of my other books on documentary cover Riefenstahl's life during this period, and I don't care enough about her to have bought a biography. I don't know what Riefenstahl did during the war; if I did, I would have written about it. Koyaanis Qatsi

Indeed, IMDb entry on Tiefland states that the movie was filmed during WWII (since 1940, AFAIR). Also, site of the Institute of National Remembrance published the pic I uploaded with a caption mentioning her work on some documentaries during the Polish Defence War of 1939. It doesn't say whether the film was finished, though.
I guess the problem is that most of her biographies are based on her own memoirs which apparently ommit the times of war (I haven't read them, I only browsed through the pages, but it seemed to me as if she was writing only some details from her personal life during WWII). Perhaps a good book on the topic would be Leni Riefenstahl by Rainer Rother. {ISBN 0826461018)
Also, a quick search of the Amazon archives shows this book. The blob says that Provided with access to Riefenstahl's personal archives and film collection, the text examines her most famous wartime works as well as her less recognized projects.. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 09:02, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
However, the writer of the blurb could have been repeating what seems to be a common misconception. I am removing the disputed sentence until someone can cite evidence of a specific war-time propaganda film directed by her. Ellsworth 20:12, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Her New York Times obituary also confirms that she made no films after Olympia other than Tiefland. Ellsworth 22:58, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
IIRC she was sent to Poland immediately after the invasion to make propaganda but was sufficiently stricken by what she saw that she refused to cooperate. This is covered in Wonderful, Horrible Life... I don't believe the propaganda work in question was supposed to be documentary or feature-length, but I'm stretching my recollection in making the latter claim. Buffyg 11:14, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
From the German article:
She and numerous employees of her firm went to the front in Poland on September 8 as war correspondents. Leni Riefenstahl experienced a massacre of Polish civilians by German soldiers in Ko?skie and abandoned her activities as a film correspondent. Allegedly she wrote a gravamen debrief.
Buffyg 03:07, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Just FYI, I've been MASSIVELY updating the Triumph of the Will page and also made a small one for Sieg des Glaubens. Palm_Dogg 15:37, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I just love how many Wikipedians are willing to contribute to a Wikipedia entry on a person about whom they have never even read a biography. Scan a web site for a few minutes, a wham!, you are an expert. Nicmart 13:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Documentary

I've seen a TV documentary about Leni Riefenstahl that focused on her work on the Nubas of Sudan, and didn't picture her as notorious as this article does. She even claimed that she wanted Hitler to choose another director instead of her, but to her dismay Hitler insisted on having her. Etz Haim 04:22, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Underwater documentary

Not sure if anyone wants to add it to the article...I just watched her film "Underwater Impressions" (totally unaware of her background) and was shocked at her lack of skill underwater. She has almost no bouyancy control skills, and is almost perpetually bouncing off the reefs or resting on them with her hands or fins. Numerous shots end just before she kicks a fin into the reef or hits it with her hand. Numerous shots are of her very much "inside" the reef.

Sounds silly, but scuba divers and marine scientists are VERY, VERY fussy about this stuff. Not only is it very dangerous to the diver, but it heavily damages the coral. For over a decade, PADI and other dive organizations have been beating it into diver's heads that you -do not touch reefs-. It's important for people to understand that kind of activity is not acceptable...

And why, exactly, are we holding a person who was making an underwater documentary 60 years ago to the diving standards of the present?

She didn't make the underwater film 60 years ago. It was in the mid '90s. The thing is, she herself was in her 90s when she learned to dive, and when she made the film. I think that itself is impressive, and too bad about her lack of athleticism. If you can get hold of the DVD of White Hell of Pitz Palu (or was it Storm over Mont Blanc??? I forget at the moment) there is a short extra film, a brief documentary/interview with Leni from the mid-'90s or so. Interestingly, she was using a full suite of the latest "Avid" film-making tools (with computers, digital editing, etc.). --Fluffbrain 00:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Warsaw Victory Parade

I edited a portion of the WW2 section of this article. The removed section was about the Warsaw victory parade and it's wrongships. In my oppinion, the following sentence goes against the NPOV policy; "However, by 5 October 1939 Leni Riefenstahl was already back in occupied Poland and filming Hitler's victory parade in Warsaw, her conscience and sense of aesthetics not affected by the fact that during the parade all inhabitants of Warsaw were ordered to stay at home and shut their windows."

I find it questionable that the large section about the Warsaw victory parade fits into this article. I can however see the point, given that it's a valid argument for her being a Nazi sympathizer. The best thing to do IMO would be to remove the Warsaw parade and find referances to academic discussions upon if this shows her true colors or not. --Aerugo 02:20, 05 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Actor

She was an actor. The term actress is sexist. LR is in the German actor category. In the past I've been accused of using a "cutting-edge" convention in doing this, I am not. Occupational titles have been de-genderised since the 1970s. Please see this [1] article for an example of mainstream, uncontroversial, non-mainstream use. Wyss 19:24, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I think using the term "actress" is appropriate. Without the picture, the millions of people who know nothing of her or the German language reading the article might think Leni is a "he." I constantly run into English names that could be male or female and I have no clue in another language. Because it is on the first line, wouldn't it make sense to call them actress? - Ted Wilkes 19:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Even when Leni is referred to as she? I don't think so. Wyss 20:54, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
The very term of sexism in relation to word usage depends mostly on one's POV. As such it is quite tricky, especially in an encyclopaedia. After all one might argue that the term woman is sexist and we should use use womoon instead. So, I would rather stick to official English language grammars rather than this or that newspaper's daily usage. And the grammars state clearly that some names of professions have two versions depending on grammatical gender. Halibutt 20:05, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
"official English language grammars"? Please cite them. Please include any excerpts which specifically mandate the use of actress and actor, to the exclusion of using actor to describe both genders. Please provide further citations supporting why these grammars are deemed "official," and why this "officiality" is relevant under WP policy. My request for citations aside, I don't agree this is a question of PoV. Wyss 20:51, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

"Actress" is correct. This is English, not newspeak, and English includes many gendered nouns.

The unsigned anon is mistaken. Wyss 11:35, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
You deny that English includes many gendered nouns? Sorry, wishing doesn't make it so.
  • Please sign your posts.
  • I never denied that English has gendered nouns. Please re-read my posts if you're having trouble understanding, thanks. Wyss 13:00, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I very much doubt that at any point in her lifetime Leni Riefenstahl was referred to as an actor. - Nunh-huh 11:45, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

So what? Do we still call Amelia Earhart an aviatrix? Wyss 11:53, 17
As to your other questions - I don't know about Amelia Earhart, but the word actress is definitely used by the world. And, like it or not, its usage is not a matter of mistake. It's a matter of personal style, and as such - a matter of personal point of view on whether nouns can be sexist or not. Whichever way you turn the cat, sexism is not yet a grammatical category. Halibutt 12:17, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Actor is more correct and since it's a matter of style the ungendered, unsexist term is much more helpful. As for the sexism, I wasn't referring to it as a grammatical category, but as blatant PoV. Wyss 12:48, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

And that's exactly my argument. Sexism of certain words is a matter of point of view. I fail to see how is yours any better than mine here. Similarly, one could say that actress is more correct since it better describes the person (gives not only info on her occupation, but also gender) and is not polluted by blatant feminist POV. See what I mean? Halibutt 13:41, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

As you say, the use of actress amounts to a PoV choice. Since actor is neutral, it is much less distracting and more helpful. Wyss 13:47, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

We can repeat our arguments over and over again, apparently. For me actress is more neutral, as it is not touched by feminist propaganda. Also, it's much more informative since it carries more information on her (or should I say it carries more information on that person?). Finally, I fail to see how using wrong grammatical gender is more helpful - and to whom. For me it would simply be distracting. Halibutt 14:21, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I do respectfully and humbly submit that your use of the term feminist propaganda seems strikingly PoV to me. Wyss 15:01, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Congratulations for your discovery! Indeed, the talk page is often used for expressing opinions - and that is my opinion. As such, it expresses my point of view (POV in short), just like your comments express your point of view. Now then, as long as your views on the English grammar are not generally supported by the wikipedia community (and they are not, apparently) or by the world, I believe we should stick to common usage and not to forced political correctness or newspeak.
As to Leni herself, her native language was German, in which nouns always inflect into one of three genders. So, with all probability, she would never-ever call herself an actor (Schauspieler) unless she had her sex changed. Halibutt 06:36, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
This is an English encyclopedia in 2005. Wyss 07:21, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

How is the term "actress" sexist? I can see only that the word indicates both an occupation and a gender simultaneously. (I'm a little slow on the uptake, is "gender" the right word?) If the goal is to belie as little detail as possible in an efficient manner, certainly "female actor" would be useful for adding words. As this is not a sophomore English class essay, I think "actress" is completely appropriate. If makes you angrier, I think she's pretty, too. --B. Phillips 13:13, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I think she was a drop-dead gorgeous actor. Gendered occupational terms have been considered sexist for thirty years. Wyss 23:54, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

He's actually nearly correct, the part where he's wrong is that all so called "Actors" should be called actresses. I have already corrected the George Clooney and Henry Fonda pages for this fix. Please go through the other actresses and update them please. --KingZog 22:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but when I first saw a list of films under the section "Actor" I couldn't help but think "Wait, who is this about? Wasn't this article about Leni Riefenstahl? Maybe these are films featuring some actor she used to direct or someting like that." Besides, calling a woman an "actor" sounds like calling Elisabeth II the "king" of England, doesn't it?... Now, seriously, I really believe this whole discussion is extraordinarily irrelevant. Let's be reasonable: "official English grammar" and all apart, there is no doubt that calling a woman an "actress" really IS the common usage, is it not? Or does anyone truly think that it is more common to call acting women "actors"? Come on, unless we intend to use the Leni Riefenstahl Wikipedia article to start a campaign for this new usage, we have to agree that it is more apropriate to keep the common and generally accepted usage of the word "actress" in order to avoid confusion and strangeness. Now, if too many people strongly oppose the word "actress" (even though it seems that those with such strong feelings amount to aproximately 1 person) maybe we could call that section "Acting" instead of "Actor" or "Actress". How about that? Leschatz 15:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Feminism is great, and there have been some good societal changes in the past few decades, but making all gendered nouns into neutrals (i.e. transforming the default male term into the default neutral term for both men and women) hasn't always been a key concern. That is SO five minutes ago. It was/is one of many pedantic American strains in feminist theory. Indeed, reclaiming femininities has often been much more à la mode, for those who follow these things. "The media" and some in Hollywood may deem women in film and on stage to be "actors," but among the lowly hoi polloi, "actress" is by far the more commonly-used term. Moreover, I doubt very much that if Leni were alive and young today, starring in some 2006 version of Das Blaue Licht, she could receive an Academy Award nomination for Best Leading Actor. I'm tempted to go ahead and change this on the page right now, but I've been unexpectedly skilled lately in making everyone around me angry. Another day, perhaps. Maybe tomorrow. Actually, I'm just going to do it. This is stupid. Girl power! --Fluffbrain 05:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Google returns 46,900 results for "she is an actress" compared to 844 results for "she is an actor" so I think it's fair to say that the former is the predominant usage. Misodoctakleidist 03:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How to say it

It might appear that the anonymous contributor is unaware of the NPOV policy (e.g. "reviled"). Please see it. Please see WP:3RR while you're at it. As far as saying that Reifenstahl is a Nazi propagandist, that's true on one level but misleading on another. She may have been in fundamental accord with the Nazis in terms of their mode of mass politics via aesthetics and their enthusiasm for technology, but she also appears to have drawn a line in her allegiances (see above). Furthermore, Olympia does not neatly fit into the "propagandist" category, even if its aesthetics have been alleged to been consistent with those of the Nazis. Defining her as a Nazi propagandist may bring a truth to light, but it's far from an exhaustive (that is to say: encyclopaedic) description. I would, however, venture, that the article does not go very far is specifying Riefenstahl's aesthetics and relating it to her propaganda work. Buffyg 12:36, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Bibliography

"Kampf in Schnee und Eis (Leibzig, 1933)" - is that really correct? I would think it would be "Leipzig" instead. 84.184.123.162 20:07, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

It's a typo. Leipzig would be the correct term, have you altered the mistake? Эйрон Кинни (t) 09:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Technique

Perhaps a little bit about her aesthetics/techniques should be included? It's discussed briefly and then never elaborated on.

Go for it, dude!Ellsworth 22:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The section regarding her techniques is a bit over-reaching. To say that she was the first director to put the camera on rails is inaccurate. The wording of the section also implies that Riefenstahl invented the tracking shot, which is in direct contradiction with the wikipedia article on tracking shots. The photograph showing her using a dolly is captioned to say that the technique is innovative, but dollies and tracking shots had been used in films since at least 1914. Unless someone can cite a source that confirms that she was the first to put a camera on rails, i would like to move ahead and edit the section related to the use of tracking shots. striatic

[edit] Last famous figure

Cut this:

In her obituaries Riefenstahl was said to be the last famous figure of Germany's Nazi era to die.

It was unsourced and it also apparently, wrong. I'd certainly classify Max Schmeling as a "famous figure of Germany's Nazi era" and he outlived her. Ellsworth 22:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Was Riefenstahl really in a French detention camp?

I'm not sure if the following sentence is accurate: "After World War II, she spent four years in a French detention camp" I've been reading about this part of her biography here: http://www.germanhollywood.com/rief_2.html and it seems the issue of what happened to her after the War is more complicated. Thanks, Cgrimm 22:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

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